New OOTS products from CafePress
New OOTS t-shirts, ornaments, mugs, bags, and more
Results 1 to 30 of 30
  1. - Top - End - #1
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default What If Lolth Died?

    Hey everyone. Other members were talking about Lolth in the Friendly Random Banter thread and I just thought about something about Lolth the evil drow goddess. What if Lolth died? Of course, there are a few ways that a deity died such as killing a deity in battle by physical and magical means, losing every worshipper to stop worshipping a deity to gain divine powers. Those are a few methods that I can think of. Lolth is an intermediate goddess (which she got 100,000+ worshippers, mostly drow) She's a very powerful goddess. So I think any deity who has an equal and greater power (All good, evil, and even neutral deities of greater power status) can kill Lolth. The aftermath of Lolth's death may or may not change the Lolth worshippers much. They may stop being evil and choose to worshipped Eilistraee the Good Drow Goddess or other non-drow good and neutral deities to worship by choice. Some Lolth worshippers might worship other evil drow deities and the increase of worshipper of other evil drow deities might be very popular to gain more divine power from their other evil drow deities and they are a real threat now that Lolth is dead. So much to think about. What does everyone think about it?
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Lolth is the kind of supervillain who has a whole web (heh) of Deadman switch plans to wreck absolute and utter chaos across the Multiverse out of spite upon her death.

    She would happily break Drow and Elven society utterly just because she can be extremely spiteful and brilliant.

    It would not be pretty. In a way, that's probably how she managed to stay alive so long while having antagonize every other gods of the Elven, Orcish, Dwarven, Human and Abyssal pantheon. They know it'll be too much problem after they kill her.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr2 View Post
    Lolth is the kind of supervillain who has a whole web (heh) of Deadman switch plans to wreck absolute and utter chaos across the Multiverse out of spite upon her death.

    She would happily break Drow and Elven society utterly just because she can be extremely spiteful and brilliant.

    It would not be pretty. In a way, that's probably how she managed to stay alive so long while having antagonize every other gods of the Elven, Orcish, Dwarven, Human and Abyssal pantheon. They know it'll be too much problem after they kill her.
    Wow. I didn't know she was that crafty.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Dec 2019

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Didn't she already though once?

    Looked it up, the War of the Spider Queen Novels.

    Spoiler
    Show
    It was more of a rebirth cycle than anything else, but she was effectively "dead" to her followers for the length of the series.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Didn't she already though once?

    Looked it up, the War of the Spider Queen Novels.

    Spoiler
    Show
    It was more of a rebirth cycle than anything else, but she was effectively "dead" to her followers for the length of the series.
    That situation is different though because all of the other members of the Drow pantheon understood what was happening because it had occurred previously and therefore the steps they took in response were distinctly limited.

    Lolth, in the Realms, could potentially be killed by Corellon Larethian following the events of the Reckoning (the Lady Penitent novels) in which Corellon was drawn into direct competition with Lolth following the death of Eilistraee because a number of drow were converted back into dark elves (no these are somehow not the same thing). However, the subsequent events of both the Spellplague and the Second Sundering undid all of that and brought the other members of the drow pantheon (aka the Dark Seldarine) back from the dead and restored a much earlier status quo.


    Broadly, it's important to determine if this question applies to only in the Realms, or to the Planescape-based iteration of Lolth who serves as the principle goddess of all dark elves everywhere. There's a lot of weird overlap here because of cross pollination in the development of aspects of the drow for the Realms by Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore that was latter ported over imperfectly into Planescape with certain elements (Elven High Magic, the role of entities like Ghuandaur) changed or erased.

    Within the Realms, if Lolth dies as a result of the sava game she willfully participated in with other drow and elven deities, then her death would be binding per those rules and her portfolio would pass to the deity who killed her. Existing drow society would be massively destabilized in all cases but the subsequent direction would depend almost completely on who it was that won. The most minimal change would be from Lolth to Kiriansalee - in which case the drow stop worshipping spiders and start worshipping undead but still probably remain largely a matriarchy and many of their social structures would remain unchanged. Victory by Vhaerun would utterly upend all the gender based structures and probably result in a patriarchy instead after a massive amount of violence, but the drow would remain evil. The Jaezred Chaulssin assassin cult the followed Vhaerun and ruled a couple of drow settlements provides an example of how this would probably sort out. If Eilistraee killed Lolth, who knows. Some of the drow would follow her but the majority would probably reject her entirely and search out some other deity to follow (probably Shar, who occupies the right divine memespace). If Corellon kills Lolth hmmm...they probably take on the dark elves willing to worship him and just purges the rest of the drow entirely.

    If some other, non-elven deity managed to kill Lolth outside of the sava context (which would be challenging outside of some kind of cataclysmic event that rendered the gods vulnerable like during the Time of Troubles), they would absorb Lolth's portfolio and would probably continue to pretend to be Lolth because they'd gain the greatest support from the Drow in that way and only very gradually alter drow society to suit their desires.

    Outside of the Realms, well, in the Planescape context it's pretty much impossible to turn Lolth into a dead god without massacring a substantial portion of the drow as a species across the entirety of the multiverse. That's not very likely.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Lord Raziere's Avatar

    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Gender
    Male2Female

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Everyone except all the drow who worshipped her at the time would rejoice. they'd probably suffer whatever deadman's switch plan she has in store but they'd still do it, and its unlikely anything she could do would have a truly lasting effect.
    I'm also on discord as "raziere".


  7. - Top - End - #7
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    That situation is different though because all of the other members of the Drow pantheon understood what was happening because it had occurred previously and therefore the steps they took in response were distinctly limited.

    Lolth, in the Realms, could potentially be killed by Corellon Larethian following the events of the Reckoning (the Lady Penitent novels) in which Corellon was drawn into direct competition with Lolth following the death of Eilistraee because a number of drow were converted back into dark elves (no these are somehow not the same thing). However, the subsequent events of both the Spellplague and the Second Sundering undid all of that and brought the other members of the drow pantheon (aka the Dark Seldarine) back from the dead and restored a much earlier status quo.


    Broadly, it's important to determine if this question applies to only in the Realms, or to the Planescape-based iteration of Lolth who serves as the principle goddess of all dark elves everywhere. There's a lot of weird overlap here because of cross pollination in the development of aspects of the drow for the Realms by Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore that was latter ported over imperfectly into Planescape with certain elements (Elven High Magic, the role of entities like Ghuandaur) changed or erased.

    Within the Realms, if Lolth dies as a result of the sava game she willfully participated in with other drow and elven deities, then her death would be binding per those rules and her portfolio would pass to the deity who killed her. Existing drow society would be massively destabilized in all cases but the subsequent direction would depend almost completely on who it was that won. The most minimal change would be from Lolth to Kiriansalee - in which case the drow stop worshipping spiders and start worshipping undead but still probably remain largely a matriarchy and many of their social structures would remain unchanged. Victory by Vhaerun would utterly upend all the gender based structures and probably result in a patriarchy instead after a massive amount of violence, but the drow would remain evil. The Jaezred Chaulssin assassin cult the followed Vhaerun and ruled a couple of drow settlements provides an example of how this would probably sort out. If Eilistraee killed Lolth, who knows. Some of the drow would follow her but the majority would probably reject her entirely and search out some other deity to follow (probably Shar, who occupies the right divine memespace). If Corellon kills Lolth hmmm...they probably take on the dark elves willing to worship him and just purges the rest of the drow entirely.

    If some other, non-elven deity managed to kill Lolth outside of the sava context (which would be challenging outside of some kind of cataclysmic event that rendered the gods vulnerable like during the Time of Troubles), they would absorb Lolth's portfolio and would probably continue to pretend to be Lolth because they'd gain the greatest support from the Drow in that way and only very gradually alter drow society to suit their desires.

    Outside of the Realms, well, in the Planescape context it's pretty much impossible to turn Lolth into a dead god without massacring a substantial portion of the drow as a species across the entirety of the multiverse. That's not very likely.
    That's a lot of information to see why Lolth can't die and even if a deity would be able to kill her it's still wouldn't be a great outcome.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-11-24 at 01:48 AM.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    ereinion's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    UTC+1

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    I played a campaign back in D&D 3.5 which I dealt with the death of Lolth, but upon googling for it I learned that it was just about the silence of Lolth which has already been mentioned. Suffice to say it created a lot of unrest in drow society, with cults of lesser known drow deities vying for greater influence. I expect the book series mentioned earlier goes into this in some detail too.
    "In defeat, malice; in victory, revenge!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Captnq View Post
    Roleplay liking each other or GET OUT. Because I've had it up to my eyeballs with REAL role-players and their "concept" being more important then the rules, fun, and the other players
    Avatar-maker

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    That's a lot of information to see why Lolth can't die and even if a deity would be able to kill her it's still wouldn't be a great outcome.
    And none of that even touches on Lolth's influence in the Abyss or the power vacuum her departure would leave. She doesn't strike me as the most productive of the Abyss' rulers in terms of bloodwar participation or the politics between the Princes. Some other demon prince taking her territory or some new upstart doing so has the potential to alter the balance of power there to some degree. Most likely in ways that will only make the demons more dangerous than they already are.
    Sparxs Plays: My friend's Youtube gaming channel where you can watch us.
    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCbj...9MQHA/featured

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Titan in the Playground
     
    DrowGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2015

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeadMech View Post
    And none of that even touches on Lolth's influence in the Abyss or the power vacuum her departure would leave. She doesn't strike me as the most productive of the Abyss' rulers in terms of blood war participation or the politics between the Princes. Some other demon prince taking her territory or some new upstart doing so has the potential to alter the balance of power there to some degree. Most likely in ways that will only make the demons more dangerous than they already are.
    Maybe Lolth doesn't care for the Blood War that much. She has more important things to do rather than to join forces with demons to battle devils even though she's Chaotic Evil herself.
    Last edited by Bartmanhomer; 2020-11-24 at 03:14 AM.
    It's time to get my Magikarp on!

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    The early editions (1e, I think?) had Lolth being killed in her home realm, and yes, dying. It didn't explore the consequences of it, though. In theory, defeating a deity in their home realm is the only way of killing them, but deities can have contingencies allowing them to survive anyway (take Mystra and her surviving Cyric's murder attempt, though severely weakened for a century, as we see in Elminster Enraged).

    As for the consequences on the Lolthite drow, it's quite easy. Without having any power to maintain the status quo, since most drow commoners are frigging' miserable, since males are friggin' miserable, since other groups (wizards, followers of other Dark Seldarine) are totally unhappy with the system but still retain their power, Lolth's matriarchy will likely get removed in a series of bloody wars. Even then, it's also likely that various factions of Lolthite drow will go against each other as well, leading to a total collapse of the society as a whole (and to other Underdark races also intervening and giving the coup de grace). If you ask why they won't come together and negotiate after the matriarchy is dealt with, remember: the Lolthite are the same guys who thought that trying to kill your own commanders in the middle of a battle is a good idea, and that preparing to backstab each other in the middle of being sieged by someone who wants to wipe you from the face of the planet was a stroke of genius.

    That said, the followers of Vhaeraun might channel the rage of the drow against the matriarchy and avoid the subsequent series of wars I mentioned above. The followers of Eilistraee would likely go to rescue people caught in the middle of the disaster and bring them to safety (but to be honest, and if the worldbuilding of the drow cared to explore the consequences of its own premises even in the most superficial manner, splinter movements, and revolutions would have already formed, and Lolth's system would have already either change or collapsed over friggin' 12k years of absolute nonsense, even without her death).

    As for the portfolio, the death of a deity doesn't necesaarily mean that the portfolio will pass to someone else. It's really up to you.
    Last edited by Irennan; 2020-11-24 at 01:42 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    That situation is different though because all of the other members of the Drow pantheon understood what was happening because it had occurred previously and therefore the steps they took in response were distinctly limited.

    Lolth, in the Realms, could potentially be killed by Corellon Larethian following the events of the Reckoning (the Lady Penitent novels) in which Corellon was drawn into direct competition with Lolth following the death of Eilistraee because a number of drow were converted back into dark elves (no these are somehow not the same thing). However, the subsequent events of both the Spellplague and the Second Sundering undid all of that and brought the other members of the drow pantheon (aka the Dark Seldarine) back from the dead and restored a much earlier status quo.


    Broadly, it's important to determine if this question applies to only in the Realms, or to the Planescape-based iteration of Lolth who serves as the principle goddess of all dark elves everywhere. There's a lot of weird overlap here because of cross pollination in the development of aspects of the drow for the Realms by Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore that was latter ported over imperfectly into Planescape with certain elements (Elven High Magic, the role of entities like Ghuandaur) changed or erased.

    Within the Realms, if Lolth dies as a result of the sava game she willfully participated in with other drow and elven deities, then her death would be binding per those rules and her portfolio would pass to the deity who killed her. Existing drow society would be massively destabilized in all cases but the subsequent direction would depend almost completely on who it was that won. The most minimal change would be from Lolth to Kiriansalee - in which case the drow stop worshipping spiders and start worshipping undead but still probably remain largely a matriarchy and many of their social structures would remain unchanged. Victory by Vhaerun would utterly upend all the gender based structures and probably result in a patriarchy instead after a massive amount of violence, but the drow would remain evil. The Jaezred Chaulssin assassin cult the followed Vhaerun and ruled a couple of drow settlements provides an example of how this would probably sort out. If Eilistraee killed Lolth, who knows. Some of the drow would follow her but the majority would probably reject her entirely and search out some other deity to follow (probably Shar, who occupies the right divine memespace). If Corellon kills Lolth hmmm...they probably take on the dark elves willing to worship him and just purges the rest of the drow entirely.

    Nah, that game was just a metaphor, not a real thing--as shown by many scenes which would be entirely illogical otherwise (or from the fact that the entirety of those novels wouldn't have mattered even within their own context if that game was real, since the game would be the only real determining factor, and stuff done by mortal would be only fluff). It would also be incredibly OOC for Eilistraee to even think taking part in a thing that uses people as literal pawns. Then again, being absolute nonsense is the trademark of that series. It goes to the point that it couldn't have even been written if not for the authors warping characters and lore, because they based the whole plot on false information (like the position of Eilistraee's realm) and certain characters doing things that they would have never done without the warping they did (their smearing of Eilistraee is notorious--and intentional--for example, down to sniping specific lines of lore about her just so subvert them in VERY offputting ways). It's one of the reasons why their retcon makes much more sense than the novels themselves.

    As for Corellon, I doubt he'd even care going after Lolth. Even in the novels He merely collected a handful free souls, and was willing to even let the majority of Eilistraee's followers to rot, because they weren't affected by a race change (yes, only a few hudnreds of the thousands of Eilistraee's followers were transformed by that mage, which is why the transformation into dark elves did absoilutely nothing in the big picture). He also proceeded to do absolutely nothing for a century or so after that event. Then again, setting aside WotC's retcon, if we want to analyze the situation, since Ed Greenwood explained that Eilistraee survived with the help of Mystra (and so did Vhaeraun, whom she spared but whose portfolio she temporarily took), it could easily be that Corellon only subentered to "watch over" his daughter's followers while she was powerless as a deity and was recovering. This would paint a much better picture of him thatn the novels do, tbh, and given that Ed spilled the beans about the "behind the scenes" of the events, I'd say this is the most likely possibility.

    That said, the idea that the drow would automatically worship the deity who kills Lolth is flawed IMHO. People don't work like that; the Lolthite drow would likely just descend into a messy massacre to determine who would fill the power vacuum left by the now-powerless priesteses (and they would do all they can to hide their lack of power, which could include turning to demon worship to get powers and stuff). Little would change for the other drow factions, aside from an opportunity for the likes of Vhaeraun, since he'd have a good chance at establishing dominance, or at least a much easier time destabilizing and demolishing the Lolthite society in the future. For the Eilistraeans, there would be A LOT of work to try and rescue many of the victims of the massive bloodshed that would ensue. Other races, like the dwarves, if they ever came to know about Lolth's death, might use the civil war of her followers as an opportunity to get rid of drow cities near to them.

    If some other, non-elven deity managed to kill Lolth outside of the sava context (which would be challenging outside of some kind of cataclysmic event that rendered the gods vulnerable like during the Time of Troubles), they would absorb Lolth's portfolio and would probably continue to pretend to be Lolth because they'd gain the greatest support from the Drow in that way and only very gradually alter drow society to suit their desires.
    I wouldn't say it's unlikely. Lolth made a really stupid move by isolating her own Realm from the Abyss. If Lolth didn't have plot armor, since she's alone, since she's made enemies out of everyone, chances are we would see stuff like the Mordinsamman and the Seldarine doing a blitz in the Demonwibs, erasing her from the Realms. I mean, Vhaeraun could even be convinced to join, and Eilistraee wouldn't certainly oppose them. What would remain as her ally? Selvetarm? Moradin's laugh would be enough to send him flying into the horizon. Not to mention that even Selvetarm hates her, thiugh he still defends her for whatever reason.

    Lolth is one of those villains that only survives because of author bias, really. If not for her adversaries getting her, it should've been a lot of the drow losing faith or bringing change over friggin' 12000 years of utter misery (both emotional and material), stagnation, and regress from their golden age from before Lolth's cult was even a thing. Don't give me the " but a literal deity keeps them down..." justification; it's weak. Threats of death and massacres never stopped IRL humans (who had MUCH better conditions than the vast majority of drow, who can literally be killed or bankrupted and then enslaved for fun in Lolthite society) from rebelling or even displaying dissent. And in the Realms even internal disillusion, without the need to display it outside, without the need to do *anything* material, would be enough to kill or at least demolish Lolth's power, due to how deities work in FR (and that was true even before the ToT, as shown by many deities fading due to loss of worshippers). Now, add opther deities who go out of their way to help the drow break free, and you have a picture where the current canon is ridiculous.

    As for the portfolio, it wouldn't necessarily go to the killer. There are cases of deities being killed and their porfolio remaining unfulfilled. Mystra, for example--though we know she had contingencies and survived, she effectively stopped functioning as a deity even thogh she was still alive. Same for the Dark Seldarine.
    Last edited by Irennan; 2020-11-27 at 03:34 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Irennan View Post
    The early editions (1e, I think?) had Lolth being killed in her home realm, and yes, dying. It didn't explore the consequences of it, though. In theory, defeating a deity in their home realm is the only way of killing them, but deities can have contingencies allowing them to survive anyway (take Mystra and her surviving Cyric's murder attempt, though severely weakened for a century, as we see in Elminster Enraged).

    As for the consequences on the Lolthite drow, it's quite easy. Without having any power to maintain the status quo, since most drow commoners are frigging' miserable, since males are friggin' miserable, since other groups (wizards, followers of other Dark Seldarine) are totally unhappy with the system but still retain their power, Lolth's matriarchy will likely get removed in a series of bloody wars. Even then, it's also likely that various factions of Lolthite drow will go against each other as well, leading to a total collapse of the society as a whole (and to other Underdark races also intervening and giving the coup de grace). If you ask why they won't come together and negotiate after the matriarchy is dealt with, remember: the Lolthite are the same guys who thought that trying to kill your own commanders in the middle of a battle is a good idea, and that preparing to backstab each other in the middle of being sieged by someone who wants to wipe you from the face of the planet was a stroke of genius.

    That said, the followers of Vhaeraun might channel the rage of the drow against the matriarchy and avoid the subsequent series of wars I mentioned above. The followers of Eilistraee would likely go to rescue people caught in the middle of the disaster and bring them to safety (but to be honest, and if the worldbuilding of the drow cared to explore the consequences of its own premises even in the most superficial manner, splinter movements, and revolutions would have already formed, and Lolth's system would have already either change or collapsed over friggin' 12k years of absolute nonsense, even without her death).

    As for the portfolio, the death of a deity doesn't necesaarily mean that the portfolio will pass to someone else. It's really up to you.
    Another consideration that came to mind, expanding on this.

    The crux of the matter is this: even with Lolth alive, there are plenty of factions and people who are extremely dissatisfied with her. Miserable people, the "have nots" (i.e. the commoners) are usually shut down from a social perspective, and it's unlikely for them to be the leaders in uprisings. However, they have an immense strength to be channeled.

    The "have some, want more--people with the power/position to start something big, and that could benefit in a way or another from an uprising (like minor houses who don't like Lolth, male wizards, merchant clans, other drow cultures/churches--who are totally able to infiltrate Lolthite environments; look: Masked Traitors, Secret Moondancers, Silverhair Knights) are the best candidates to channel the commoners' strength, and they would *jump* at the opportunity to overthrow the Lolthite theocracy and establish a new status quo.

    The thing is, if Lolth died, they would all rush to do exactly that in order to overthrow the priestesses (who, even with Lolth's death, wouldn't be ready to give away their rulership, and would likely turn to demons or the likes for power), and each of them would have their own vision of the best future for the drow. With how the Lolthite society works, however, they wouldn't unite against the priestesses, but would likely fight the priestesses AND each other, which would be the source of the massive bloodshed I mentioned above, and of the collpase of the Underdark drow as a whole. That said, if one of these factions could rise and get the others behind them, then we might see a more orderly (if still chaotic) change.

    IMHO the most likely candidate to do this is the Church of Vhaeraun, because they know which levers to pull, and have a lot to offer to a lot of dissatisfied categories. If the Vhaeraunites managed to pull it off, you'd see the drow becoming MUCH more dangerous than they ever were under Lolth (they're clowns under Lolth; they ended up failing at literally everything they ever attempted on the surface), because they'd be united and working towards re-restablishing ancient Ilythiir. But that's a big if, because even if the Vhaeraunites prevailed in one city, nothing says that the same would be true for the other cities too.

    The Eilistraeans would probably be in the middle of this, trying to save and offer shelter to as many as possible. Some of them might work to channel the commoners' dissatisfaction and desire of change, and they would likely manage to get a number of them to abandon the Underdark and flee the incoming war, but I don't picture the Eilistraeans being in the position to reshape the Lolthite society. Tehn again, underdog stories always have their charm, so if that's what you want, why not?
    Last edited by Irennan; 2020-11-24 at 02:02 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    Not worth the problems it causes or how would a party react that they're trying to rescue the mother of a certain family line who turns out to be Lolth but although the deity has a dreadful reputation this is someone with a family and a marriage that fulfills everything Corellon failed at.

    Do you try to rescue them or leave them to their fate?
    Depends how close to canon your Lolth is, who's in the party, what do they know, etc...

    For example, if anyone in the party is a drow who is well aware of, or has experienced first-hand, the kind of abuse and total misery that Lolth forces on the drow; if they know that she's a sadistic deity whose only goal is to keep the drow enslaved to her, suffering and crawling at her feet, then that character might not give a flying that Lolth has a family, and even choose to personally end her. After all, Lolth knows how to put up a facade, and all she does 24/7 is thinking how to backstab others, how to cause strife, or how to gain more power. If the character is aware of this, as compassionate as they might be, they will find it seriously hard to not hunt her down, because that would mean condemining thousands to decades, if not centuries or millennia, of pain. Sadly, this is the level of caricature-evil that canon Lolth is--the kind of evil that has 0 redeeming qualities.

    A character who hasn't experienced first hand any of her cruelty and only knows her by reputation, might choose to help her instead, because rumors are only rumors, and even though people like to paint their enemies as 100% evil and wrong, the truth might be different.
    Last edited by Irennan; 2020-11-24 at 02:26 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Kish's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2004

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Clearly, if Lolth died, the drow would become a republic.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Fyraltari's Avatar

    Join Date
    Aug 2017
    Location
    France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    They'd be fine, it would seem.
    Forum Wisdom

    Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Millstone85's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Paris, France
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    There's a lot of weird overlap here because of cross pollination in the development of aspects of the drow for the Realms by Ed Greenwood and RA Salvatore that was latter ported over imperfectly into Planescape with certain elements (Elven High Magic, the role of entities like Ghuandaur) changed or erased.
    Now I have got to ask: What is Planescape's take on Ghaunadaur, if any?

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Lord Vukodlak's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2007

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    I think many cities would first devolve into civil wars as the various houses went to war in the power vacuum left behind with the loss of the theocracy. Then the wizards and sorcerers would sweep in and take control turning many cities into MagocracyÂ’s.

    Wizards sized control of Sshamath with Lolith very much alive after gaining a numeric advantage over the priesthood. And have ruled it for thousands of years.
    If she was dead duplicating that feat elsewhere isnÂ’t a stretch.
    Nale is no more, he has ceased to be, his hit points have dropped to negative ten, all he was is now dust in the wind, he is not Daniel Jackson dead, he is not Kenny dead, he is final dead, he will not pass through death's revolving door, his fate will not be undone because the executives renewed his show for another season. His time had run out, his string of fate has been cut, the blood on the knife has been wiped. He is an Ex-Nale! Now can we please resume watching the Order save the world.

  19. - Top - End - #19
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    RedWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Mar 2009

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Irennan View Post
    The early editions (1e, I think?) had Lolth being killed in her home realm, and yes, dying. It didn't explore the consequences of it, though.
    It was actually part of a series of modules. G 1-3 (Against the Giants), D1-3 (Descent into the Depths and Vault of the Drow), and Q1 (Queen of the Demonweb pit) were all linked. In Queen you were to enter the Abyss and the Demonweb, and fight and kill Lolth.
    "That's a horrible idea! What time?"

    T-Shirt given to me by a good friend.. "in fairness, I was unsupervised at the time".

  20. - Top - End - #20
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2020

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich View Post
    Outside of the Realms, well, in the Planescape context it's pretty much impossible to turn Lolth into a dead god without massacring a substantial portion of the drow as a species across the entirety of the multiverse. That's not very likely.
    Actually no. You "just" need to go to Lolth divine realm and kill her there. *boom* Lolth ended accross the multiverse. At least as much as any deity can ever be killed (with all their contingencies and leftover worshippers working in bringing her back, etc.)

    While you right that the sava game would just be gambling a deities divine tether to a specific crystall sphere, events on the planes have multiversal impact

    Quote Originally Posted by Irennan View Post
    Nah, that game was just a metaphor, not a real thing--as shown by many scenes which would be entirely illogical otherwise (or from the fact that the entirety of those novels wouldn't have mattered even within their own context if that game was real, since the game would be the only real determining factor, and stuff done by mortal would be only fluff).
    Disagree. The game was what really matters, the mortals were just bound to the outcome of the board game. That's why Selvetarm could be slain by a mere mortal. Because FR has told multiple times that only deities can kill deities and all so called "godslaying weapons" are just fraud (from the dagger used to "slay" Borem, over godsbane to the crescent blade).

    Selevetarm was still alive after his "deadly decapitation" at the hands of a mortal and only died after his piece was removed from the sava board. The decapitation was just a reflection of the moves on the sava board.
    Last edited by M1982; 2020-11-26 at 04:03 AM.

  21. - Top - End - #21
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2014

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by M1982 View Post
    Disagree. The game was what really matters, the mortals were just bound to the outcome of the board game. That's why Selvetarm could be slain by a mere mortal. Because FR has told multiple times that only deities can kill deities and all so called "godslaying weapons" are just fraud (from the dagger used to "slay" Borem, over godsbane to the crescent blade).

    Selevetarm was still alive after his "deadly decapitation" at the hands of a mortal and only died after his piece was removed from the sava board. The decapitation was just a reflection of the moves on the sava board.
    Selvetarm is a demigod. Demigods can be killed by mortals and artifacts. Selvetarm was also killed in his home realm. I agree about the god-slaying weapons part, especially when said weapon wasn't even the weapon but a demon in disguise, but you don't need that to kill a demigod (check Faiths and Avatars, for example).

    And this is one of the reasons why that game makes 0 logical sense if not as a metaphor (Selvetarm dying and then still magically being alive). Ed Greenwood also explained that both Eilistraee AND Vhaeraun survived after their piece was removed, though powerless for a century. This further reinforces the lack of validity of the game.

    It is also total crap from a thematic stanpoint. You see, not only it would make the novels defeat themselves (since the whole tale would have no point--we're shown what the mortals do--that's what the story is about--yet it'd be irrelevant because the game would ultimately decide everything, regardless of the actual story), but canon explicitly tells you that Eilistraee would never manipulate mortals like that. She strives to never force a choice on them, and to empower them to find their path and fulfill themselves. Then Smedman says that she's been using mortals as literal pawns for millennia. Sorry, what a clownish statement from an author who didn't even bother to check anything before trying to insert her headcanon in the Realms.

    Then again, this is the standard for that set of novels, and violating mountains of lore is the biggest thing they do. I mean, when the novels could have never even been written without the author massively warping a character and faith, down to sniping specific lines of lore just to subvert them (Eilistraee & followers--this started in Smedman's/Athans' books since WotSQ, btw), or without the author going out of their way to contradict established lore, then you know you can't use those novels as source of lore or reference.

    And I mean, those errors were necessary for the plot to even start or exist. For example, the distortion of the portrayal of Eilistraee and her followers was necessary to kickstart the whole plot, and their goal being ludicrously defaced into "we want to rece-change the drow" was part of the foundation of the plot of book 3. Also, Eilistraee's realm had been moved to Arvandor, but Smedman ignored that, because that realm not geing in Arvandor was central to her plot. Wendonai's blood never did anything to the free will of the drow, but it suddenly became the cause of their evil because Smedman's plot couldn't work without that. The Faerzress is the byproduct of the processes that shaped Toril's Underdark, and the drow have never been addicted to it. Then suddenly the drow were bound to it by addiction, and the Faerzress became the work of elven high mages to trap the drow (once again, this was fundamental for the plots of books 2 and 3). I could go on, but you get the idea: the books needed random bullcrap to be forced by the author in order to be written, and make no sense within the Forgotten Realms.

    Then again, it doesn't matter. These novels have been entirely retconned and basically unowned by WotC, and have 0 influence on the Realms (yes, that means that WotC is pretending those novels were never written, and refusing to mention anything from them, including Ed Greenwood's clarifying lore concerning them). They were just throwaway pieces to begin with, though, written not because of story reasons, but because the guys at WotC wanted to get rid of the Dark Seldarine, while getting people to dislike Eilistraee (not making it up, even other authors that worked for them at the time, like Erik Scott de Bie, said that WotC wanted to just get rid of Eilistraee and considered getting people to dislike her before that removal a success). That was caused by some braindead kind of fanboyism that was running rampant within the company back then, that Drizzt had to be the only real good drow (and I mean, even Perkins said that the purpose of those books and of the removal of the Dark Seldarine was to make Drizzt "more special").
    Last edited by Irennan; 2020-11-26 at 11:41 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #22
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    If Lolth died, maybe the Drow would accomplish something for once. I feel that without the constant backstabbing in the name of Lolth and sorta being very evil stupid, the Drow might be much more of a threat to the surface world.
    Last edited by ebarde; 2020-11-26 at 11:04 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #23
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by ebarde View Post
    If Lolth died, maybe the Drow would accomplish something for once. I feel that without the constant backstabbing in the name of Lolth and sorta being very evil stupid, the Drow might be much more of a threat to the surface world.
    Probably not. In the absence of Lolth the drow are most likely to turn to the worship of some different, but equally horrible and erratic, deity. I mean, there already are drow settlements that worship Vhaeraun or Ghaunadaur and they aren't any more pleasant. Kiriansalee, the goddess most immediately active to the priestess of Lolth suddenly rendered spell-less (one of the things the silence of Lolth books got right is that she at least initially benefited massively from that event), is if anything even more chaotically crazed than the Spider Queen. Even non-drow deities that likely appeal to the drow are pretty horrible. In FR Shar comes pre-adapted to accept drow worshippers as the goddess of night and the underdark and is about as awful as it gets deity-wise (Viconia, famous for her appearances in Baldur's Gate, adopted Shar as a patron after breaking from the worship of Lolth, she remained quite evil).

    There would be some long term changes. The veneration of spiders would be replaced with the veneration of something else, undead in Kiriansalee's case, oozes in Ghaunadaur's. The matriarchy probably falls in all cases save where Kiriansalee becomes the new patron, but only slowly, as it would take many centuries for male drow to rise from the ranks of acolytes into positions of power in the clergy. There would also likely be an overall trend away from theocracy and toward magocracy, since the extremely chaotic period in which new faiths vied for dominance would severely weaken religious authority as a whole, leaving arcane magic in a superior position.
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  24. - Top - End - #24
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    How hard would it be for a divine caster to just sorta adopt a new deity to mantain their powers?

  25. - Top - End - #25
    Troll in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2015

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by ebarde View Post
    How hard would it be for a divine caster to just sorta adopt a new deity to mantain their powers?
    The official rules (for 3.5, found in the FRCS and PHB II) say you have to accept a geas/quest spell from a higher-level cleric of the new deity and then complete that quest without access to spells or other divine based class features (domain powers, turning undead, etc.).

    Under normal circumstances, in which a cleric is switching from one currently extant deity to another also extant deity, it obviously makes sense to impose a rather challenging quest in order to make sure that the loyalty is real, but in the case in which the old deity is dead and the cleric of the new god is aware of this fact, there's no reason the quest can't be something really easy, like "conduct the daily prayers to deity X for Y days, where Y equals your level."

    The implication here would be that immediately following the death of Lolth (or really any other deity), a bunch of high-level clerics would descend on any concentration of the clerics of the deceased deity at warp speed making 'who wants a quest?' offers to anyone even remotely talented. This is particularly true of flexible deities of neutral or chaotic alignment, who probably don't care so much that this new branch of their faith is going to have some holdover quirks for a few generations. "Yes, yes, Shar is fine with you keeping the spiders, just make sure you only feed them at night now. We cool? Good. Everyone raise your black disks and repeat after me..."
    Now publishing a webnovel travelogue.

    Resvier: a P6 homebrew setting

  26. - Top - End - #26
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    You say they would just go to another horrible deity if lloth died, but I honestly wonder if that would be the case overall. Maybe at the start that would be the case, they grew up trying to grab every advantage and they need their power back quick, so they would go to the gods that are closest to lloth in mindset and willingness to take in more followers to maintain their control. But without her will enforcing the back stabbing gain power no matter what it costs everyone else attitude, there would be more of the have nots trying to find a different path for themselves rather than just falling in line all over again. Its entirely likely the society would splinter as everyone goes in whatever direction they think would benefit them the most. As a single example, the menfolk would likely move VERY FAST once the matrons lost their power in an attempt to seize control themselves. Being the wizards and warriors of the race, they are not effected by the death of a goddess and so would lose none of their personal power.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  27. - Top - End - #27
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Feb 2020

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    I think the most disappointing aspect of the Elven mythology and pantheon is that Lolth isn't better represented as the evil side of the entire Elven psyche. Instead, she is an outcast god, overlording outcast elves.

    Itd be nice if the arrogant, manipulative elves who get delusions of their importance in the history of the world would pick up the worship of Lolth.

  28. - Top - End - #28
    Titan in the Playground
     
    PairO'Dice Lost's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Malsheem, Nessus
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    But without her will enforcing the back stabbing gain power no matter what it costs everyone else attitude, there would be more of the have nots trying to find a different path for themselves rather than just falling in line all over again. Its entirely likely the society would splinter as everyone goes in whatever direction they think would benefit them the most. As a single example, the menfolk would likely move VERY FAST once the matrons lost their power in an attempt to seize control themselves. Being the wizards and warriors of the race, they are not effected by the death of a goddess and so would lose none of their personal power.
    Not necessarily. Despite all of the many (many many) problems with the War of the Spider Queen series, one thing it actually does well is showing how the priestesshood of Lolth could fake Lolth's favor pretty well for quite some time to prevent any sort of insurrection. Already-prepared spells and stockpiled magic items would let them actively use magic in the public eye as if nothing was wrong, bound demons and animated undead would stay under control and serve as bodyguards in the absence of personal buffs and wards, and the sheer cultural inertia of "Thou shalt not question the priestesses, Lolth works in mysterious ways"--plus the high probability that an apparent weakness on the part of the priestesses is merely a ploy by the priestesses and/or Lolth herself to draw out would-be traitors so they could be crushed--would keep anyone who noticed anything wrong from acting against them until and unless they were absolutely sure about what was going on.

    And an uprising of class and gender solidarity is by no means guaranteed. Don't forget that most of the male drow who have any real power in most drow cities are attached to the matron mothers, and the males are just as backstabby and "screw you, I've got mine" as the females in most cases. The males that are best positioned to discover what's going on are the House archmages and blademasters, who have quite cushy positions and wouldn't necessarily fare well if their Houses come crashing down (see: all the males of House Oblodra), so if it looks like there's any chance the priestesses could regain power and keep society stable through finding another patron deity there's a better than even chance that they'd actually help prop up their House's priestesses to sell the illusion, in exchange for more personal freedom and/or some concessions and favors to be paid back when they have divine magic again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mechalich
    The matriarchy probably falls in all cases save where Kiriansalee becomes the new patron, but only slowly, as it would take many centuries for male drow to rise from the ranks of acolytes into positions of power in the clergy. There would also likely be an overall trend away from theocracy and toward magocracy, since the extremely chaotic period in which new faiths vied for dominance would severely weaken religious authority as a whole, leaving arcane magic in a superior position.
    This isn't a guarantee either. If the priestesses can agree on a new patron deity or archfiend relatively quickly and keep things relatively quiet until they can all devote themselves to said new deity instead of every House running around trying to find their own new patron--which, yes, would be great for each House in the short term if they can move up in the House rankings by being the first one to serve that god and earning a favored position, but would be really bad in the long term if the chaos leads to all the Houses losing power--then they might be able to keep things running the same as they always have and continue to exclude the males from the clergy because there would be no period of overt weakness in which the males could start becoming priests as well without the priestesses crushing them.

    Heck, they might even be able to keep anyone outside of the priestesshood from ever realizing that Lolth is gone! The drow already use a lot of bound demons as servants, so if they managed to make a deal with a vaguely-Lolth-looking demon princess like the Queen of Chaos, Pale Night, Malcanthet, or Zuggtmoy, they could gradually transition all the spider imagery to "Lolth" imagery because something something vain goddess something something more direct representation, and hey, if Lolth is looking a little pale in most paintings and her spider legs in most sculptures look a little bit tentacle-y or wing-y if you squint, well, you can hardly blame the artists for some creative interpretations. Alternately, all the yochlols would probably fall under Ghaunadaur's control after Lolth died, given their oozy-and-drowish nature, and since the presence of yochlol servants is often used to show a particular priestes's or House's favor with Lolth, the priestesshood could switch to worshiping Ghaunadaur and have him keep sending them yochlols to keep the transition a secret.


    Obviously, this isn't to say that things would easily remain unchanged after Lolth's death or that giving the drow a new deity would merely be a palette-swap; mass revolution and dramatic societal changes are definitely a possibility and even very likely. My point is just that the priestesses have been at this whole "evil scheming and totalitarian government" thing for quite some time and there are a lot of options for how they could delay or entirely prevent a loss of power.
    Better to DM in Baator than play in Celestia
    You can just call me Dice; that's how I roll.


    Spoiler: Sig of Holding
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by abadguy View Post
    Darn you PoDL for making me care about a bunch of NPC Commoners!
    Quote Originally Posted by Chambers View Post
    I'm pretty sure turning Waterdeep into a sheet of glass wasn't the best win condition for that fight. We lived though!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by PairO'DiceLost View Post
    <Snip>
    Where are my Like, Love, and Want to Have Your Manchildren (Totally Homo) buttons for this post?
    Won a cookie for this, won everything for this

  29. - Top - End - #29
    Colossus in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    right behind you

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    To me, I think the problem is, how she dies and how well known it is, or how fast its proven as to what the effects will be. If we get some sort of wheel of time duel between the protagonist and the great evil projected across the sky for the world to see, then I think the matrons are in for a very bad time as the have nots arent going to be very easily restrained when they literally SAW their goddess get decapitated or whatever. If its a quiet thing where one day the matrons realize their magic isnt working, they will likely, as you said, be able to bluff for some time and possibly find a workaround before things boil over.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  30. - Top - End - #30
    Orc in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

    Join Date
    Mar 2020

    Default Re: What If Lolth Died?

    Weekend at Lolth's

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •