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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Hi guys, not sure if this is the best forum for this question, but it kinda has to do in the context of world building, so I'm putting it here. If someone suggests otherwise, I'll get it moves elsewhere.

    So, I have a setting that is largely dieselpunl in nature: automatic firearms, tanks, the like. However, it is also fantasy with all the magical creatures, magic, etc. To be more relevant, the most prominent enemy are hordes of demons, having spilled from the Abyss to basically wipe out everything.

    As one may know, many demons are capable of teleporting and thus melee happens fairly often. As such, most soldiers are trained to be both proficient in melee weapon combat as well as firearms. My question is thus: what purpose would a bayonet serve in such a context? I feel most would carry a dedicated melee weapon like a sword. I know in real life bayonets of the era were to essentially turn a gun into a spear which is simple enough, but when a soldier is trained for a potentially superior weapon, why use the bayonet?

    Maybe I'm just overthinking things and can easilly just scrap bayonets, but I admit I like the WH40K meme of "affix bayonets!" before charging into a melee or trench.

    Thanks for your imput!

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Well, a bayonet turns a long gun into something that can be used roughly like a spear both as a personal weapon but also a weapon to use while in close formation. That's good because it's a simple, multi-function weapon--shot, stab, club--for individual combat, but also can be used in mass ranks to charge and overrun the opponents line. Rifle-and-bayonet is a descendant of the pike square. In a setting you're describing where people are maybe having to jump rapidly from ranged to close combat, fixed bayonet (that doesn't block the barrel like a plug bayonet) would make sense if combined with training in how to as a group of infantry take on an opponent that's teleported in.

    Or...it would work as entry level training for a modern recruitment-based army where the standard infantryman was bent towards mostly fighting other human-like armies but also need to melee with stranger opponents...but if the main opponents are demons that teleport (plus maybe other advantage like spells or jut being really big?) I suspect militarys would develop new tactics, and along with the new tactics would come new weapons. Sort of like how you have the basic pike square but then add on a doppelsoldner and a zweihander, or how a phalanx of hoplites would have peltasts or other chasseur-types on the flanks.

    So if a battle is against demons that act like normal infantry or just like a stampede but there's also some teleporters...within each normal unit of there might be dedicated "watch for teleporters" soldiers who are armed and trained differently. Like...a couple of dudes with a scatter-gun and a big pig-sticker that are trained to watch the troupe's six.

    But another possibility would be that demon-warfare would prompt the same kind of strategic hop that happened in just before and through WW1, with troops beginning operate in smaller teams and with different teams having different specialized equipment. So...anti-teleport troops might end up being a specialty unit carrying melee weapons best suited to rapidly engage and severely injure a demon or at least stop it from delivering whatever its first-strike option is.

    And that's where the size and other advantages of the demons matter, because they effect the preferred weapon choice and corresponding the "drill" of how to deal with a teleport gambit. I generally think of demons as Large or bigger, so weapons suited to immediately thump something really hard but also with a but of reach to it, like a two-handed sword or a big heavy thing that can be swung.

    ETA:

    There's also a whole sidebar here to general strategy in demon combat, because presumably demons have abilities and magic that they deploy in a consistent manner because it's advantageous, and if they're organized or under command might even have their own formal doctrine. Depending on how many combatants have teleport and the exact rules of it's function, it would be a central component to demonic diesel-punkish warfare.

    For example...teleport on a battlefield is effectively instant, effortless flanking, meaning the ability to select the very best position for enfilade and easy pincer movements. Depending on how rapidly teleport can be spammed, it also means rapid, low-risk feints and retreats as well as opening up commando-style targeting of critical assets...be that a decapitation strike or destroying critical material.

    Anti-teleport doctrine would include anticipating likely points of attack and creating countermeasures. For example, having some light artillery training in on certain positions that are teleport-suitable, or secreting anti-teleport measures to be used advantageously to catch a demon(s) who's 'ported into an open position assuming they have a mode of immediate retreat.
    Last edited by Yanagi; 2020-11-24 at 12:58 AM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Modern automatic firearms, alongside modern semi-automatic pistols and explosive devices like grenades, render bayonets - and importantly other melee weapons like swords - largely irrelevant. If you get stuck in melee you just shoot the opponent. The range at which a bayonet, or just clubbing with the butt of a rifle, retains utility is also a range at which you have sufficient mobility to just shoot the enemy. That's different from knife/grapple range, in which case you just want a knife.

    Most modern (and really anything dating from 1900 onward) bayonets are actually just full on knives with handles and all that have attachment points to fit on a rifle and just look like big buck knives to an untrained observer, such as the M9 Bayonet currently in use by the US army. Soldiers carrying these only affix them to their weapons very rarely, in the extremely unusual circumstance where you need something like a spear. Grimly, the most common use is actually probably to walk through a battlefield and stab the wounded, since an affixed bayonet allows this to be done without having to bend down.

    Rather than bayonets, the presence of teleporting demons would probably result in a switch to highly effective close range firearms, so submachine guns and shotguns rather than assault rifles. A modern submachine gun like the FN P90 can empty an entire 50-round magazine in something like 3 seconds. A demon teleporting into melee range is asking to take a massive face full of bullets/buckshot from nearby soldiers.

    The only, only reason for anyone with anything like modern firearms to switch back to a melee based combat approach (please note that entertainment media drastically exaggerates the propensity of melee encounters in combat for dramatic effect, melee wounds have been a fraction of a percent of all combat injuries since at least the American Civil War) is if ranged weapons are incapable of harming the foe. In the case of something like demons this would probably be due to DR, though low-grade DR could probably be overcome by switching to high-powered 'armor-piercing' ammo like shotgun slugs (watch John Wick 3 for an example).
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  4. - Top - End - #4
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Oddly enough, the British still get up to bayonet charges every once in a while, as recently as 2011. I imagine the chief benefit of a bayonet over a dedicated melee weapon is that once you've bayonetted the demon directly in front of you, and your next problem is the one twenty yards away throwing fireballs, you're still holding your gun.
    Last edited by Ajustusdaniel; 2020-11-25 at 02:54 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajustusdaniel View Post
    Oddly enough, the British still get up to bayonet charges every once in a while, as recently as 2011. I imagine the chief benefit of a bayonet over a dedicated melee weapon is that once you've bayonetted the demon directly in front of you, and your next problem is the one twenty yards away throwing fireballs, you're still holding your gun.
    Bayonets are also knives which are very useful in general to have so even if you rarely want to put a bayonet on your rifle it can still be a good idea to have one.

  6. - Top - End - #6
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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Never underestimate the bayonete. The primary uses in modern times are when the friendly fire risk to your own soldiers is very high and when your ammo supply is low or out.

    Other uses may include when stealth is beneficial or in mass wave assaults when reloading may be an issue.

    If you are fighting demons, silver coated bayonets and silver jacketed bullets become a thing. Axiomatic and Blessed weapons would be valuable.

    Me? I want a .50 cal sniper rifle with mercury-core silver alloy projectiles and a shotgun with a bullpup grip and bayonet mount, and a supply of adamantine buckshot.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by brian 333 View Post
    ...shotgun with a bullpup grip and bayonet mount, and a supply of adamantine buckshot.
    That's gonna be hell on your barrels. Steel shot is bad enough for older shotguns.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Demons mostly have DR against Cold Iron and/or Good Alignment. It's not entirely clear what Cold Iron exactly is (the SRD simply says its mined deep underground and forged at lower temperatures, which suggests its an ore that contains some amount of an element with a lower melting point than iron), but it doesn't appear that a diesel punk world should have any trouble acquiring large quantities of it. Good alignment would be harder to manage though.

    It probably makes sense from an industrial perspective that rather than trying to bypass DR, you simply work to overwhelm it. That means slug-based ammunition for shotguns rather than shot ammunition, and a move to lower fire rates but larger cartridges in terms of rifles and submachine guns. Alternatively, once you've managed to develop a weapon that can reliably score above the max DR value possessed by demons (in 3.5 this is usually 10 with the exception of a few very high-powered demons) you may just want to increase fire rate to some sort of stupidly high level (which might lead to an actual, viable, infantry use of a chaingun style weapon).

    Of course, demons are resistant, but not immune, to fire damage, meaning explosives might remain a viable option too. Grenade-launchers, including the underslung rifle mounts that take up the same space as a bayonet, might be extremely important anti-demon weapons.
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  9. - Top - End - #9
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    You want a bayonet because a melee weapon is extra weight and logistics, and serves as another thing your infantryman must take notice of in the heat of battle. Imagine if you're in melee and you have to take 3 seconds to change weapons. You're dead. A bayonet is better and easier.

    Also, swords are sidearms. and in terms of sheer Melee efficacy they're a distinct 2nd to polearms. more skill needed. More Metal. Less range.
    Last edited by Accelerator; 2020-11-27 at 06:54 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #10
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    As I recall one of the advantages the French had in the Dahomey Wars was that they used bayonets while their opponents preferred swords. This gave the French a decisive reach advantage.
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  11. - Top - End - #11
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by MrZJunior View Post
    As I recall one of the advantages the French had in the Dahomey Wars was that they used bayonets while their opponents preferred swords. This gave the French a decisive reach advantage.
    Who the hell uses swords versus spears?

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Accelerator View Post
    Who the hell uses swords versus spears?
    There's a reason the Kingdom of Dahomey isn't around anymore.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Quote Originally Posted by Accelerator View Post
    Who the hell uses swords versus spears?
    The Dahomeans were previously trade partners with European countries and very financially successful as a consequence of the slave trade. They were quite proud of their military tradition because it had worked so well keeping down its neighbors (in particular, defeating the Oyo), and had a set of preferred tactics and weapons--muskets and swords. And by empire standards, they had done pretty good--control most of modern Benin for 300 years, made successful trade connections with European powers, maintained their borders against competing kingdoms. It's a thing that happens a bunch in military history...people that have won for a long time get complacent and cocky.

    The First Franco-Dahomean War was such a rout that the ruler immediately attempted to re-arm with modern German rifles and artillery, but the Second Franco-Dahomean War kicked off before the new material was integrated into doctrine.
    Last edited by Yanagi; 2020-11-28 at 02:39 PM.

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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Good discussion so far guys! I think Yanagi's point of specialized melee troopers makes the most sense, with most of the rank-and-file make use of bayonets rather than melee weapons.

    I feel I should mention, if it is relevant, the world is based off Spheres of Power/Might and magic is common form the mortals' side: to the point almost every squad can have a dedicated mage for it. What that mage can use varies depending on the squad and where they're from, but a fair standard is one that can conjure bullets and magazines for their allies.

    My logic as to why melee was still a common thing is because there are outright Blood War hordes of demons; vast oceans of the things. It's usually not a matter of *if* melee occurs, but *when* since demons just have hordes and hordes of cannon fodder. I suppose another reasoning for my initial troopers being competent in both melee and range stem from the fact my early drafts of the setting had a much smaller populatipn of higher level mortals, whereas now the world can field full armies of troops ala mid 1900s countries.

    I can definitely see liberal use of things like Anticipate Teleportation being a thing for those that can cast it.

    Keep up the discussion guys! Any insight is nice! If anyone wants to look at my setting info, here's a link to my google docs: https://drive.google.com/folderview?...-_XjpPMp-pwmuC

    Sorry if it's a little messy or things are incomplete/contradictory, I kinda adjust things as I get the urge.

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    HalflingPirate

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Blade of Banishment:

    While Bullets of Banishment exist, they are very expensive and literally one-shot magic items. Some elite snipers use them, and it is said that the matching pair of .50 caliber ivory-handled revolvers worn by General Nyssim are loaded with them.

    But even for elite combat units, the cost to manufacture such bullets is prohibitive.

    A slightly more expensive but infinitely reusable Blade of Banishment is one answer. Although only fielded by elite Assault and Guard units, these weapons are greatly feared by the demon hordes.

    Their first use came in the Battle of Taiabar Hill. When the order to fix bayonets was shouted out, the demons laughed and charged en-masse. The first wave of demons was destroyed and the second decimated before the demon commanders were aware of anything. When the second wave faltered and retreated the mortals attacked, driving a wedge right into the headquarters of the demon army and slaying its leadership. The battle became a route as demons fled in all directions.

    In the aftermath of this battle the leaders, banished from the mortal realm for a century, were then subjected to displacement from their positions of power in the demon realm as rivals usurped their commands.

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    Max_Killjoy's Avatar

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    Bayonets have been fixed and used in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last 20 years multiple times, by UK and US units.

    IIRC, in each case the enemy turned and ran when faced with "proper angry" bayonet charges.

    It seems that large unhappy men running at them with knives attached to rifles made them reconsider their willingness to fight -- that is, there's still a psychological effect.
    Last edited by Max_Killjoy; 2020-11-30 at 11:53 AM.
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Bayonets vs. Dedicated Melee Weapons

    If you want Bayonets, you can have bayonets.

    Here's where D&D 5e is actually a big help, because of the way combat works, "Just shoot them" isn't always an option, since once an enemy is in melee with you, you get disadvantage on ranged attacks.

    This wouldn't quite translate, since a modernish firearm, unlike a bow or crossbow, can shoot fast and easily enough that an enemy in melee isn't necessarily going to be able to spoil your aim, but you can ignore that and keep the "Firing while in melee" rule, in which case being able to seamlessly switch between melee and ranged attacks is going to be useful, especially with teleporting demons. You won't be seeing bayonet charges, so much as Bayonets used when soldiers find themselves thrust into melee.


    Another option is to play around with damage reduction. Bullets are good at killing things, but if the demons, say, are resistant to damage that isn't made with silvered weapons, you hit a cost problem.

    Equipping an army with silver bullets is going to be outrageously expensive. Maybe sharpshooters or elites can afford to spray silver wildly, but not grunt infantry. However, silver-tipped bayonets would be far cheaper (Ignore the PHB rule that puts 100GP on every silver weapon)
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