Level 10 optimization with no-setup nova and utilities?

[that_owlbear]

Greetings, I am in search of optimized builds for Tier 1 and Tier 2 play. Some target parameters below:

* Level 1-10 build
* No UA. Only officially published materials. (I don't have Tasha's yet, so if you are relying on TCoE for a key feature, a bit of explanation is appreciated!)
* Point buy or standard array.
* If possibly, kindly include explanation of the workings of the build at keys levels.
* Feats ok.
* Multiclass ok (kindly advise when to take the various class levels).

Critical requirements:
(1) Character cannot be a liability when group stealth.
(2) Character has a solid nova for emergencies.
(3) If melee, has reasonably reliable gap close.

Key optimization goals:
(4) Can contribute meaningfully to social and/or exploration pillars.
(5) Good in combat utility/support (whether buff, debuff, control, heals or ally protection).
(6) Effective at all levels is a plus.
(7) High survivability / defensiveness is a plus.

And obviously more general utility and damage are always desirable.

Some initial thoughts:

I think requirement (1) above rules out heavy armor builds, and I think requirement (2) above rules out crit fishing builds. I think requirement (2) is probably the most restrictive requirement here because we want the character to be able to go nova with minimal set up whenever the situation calls for it.

Any help is appreciated!

[Waazraath]

Greetings, I am in search of optimized builds for Tier 1 and Tier 2 play. Some target parameters below:

* Level 1-10 build
* No UA. Only officially published materials. (I don't have Tasha's yet, so if you are relying on TCoE for a key feature, a bit of explanation is appreciated!)
* Point buy or standard array.
* If possibly, kindly include explanation of the workings of the build at keys levels.
* Feats ok.
* Multiclass ok (kindly advise when to take the various class levels).

Critical requirements:
(1) Character cannot be a liability when group stealth.
(2) Character has a solid nova for emergencies.
(3) If melee, has reasonably reliable gap close.

Key optimization goals:
(4) Can contribute meaningfully to social and/or exploration pillars.
(5) Good in combat utility/support (whether buff, debuff, control, heals or ally protection).
(6) Effective at all levels is a plus.
(7) High survivability / defensiveness is a plus.

And obviously more general utility and damage are always desirable.

Some initial thoughts:

I think requirement (1) above rules out heavy armor builds, and I think requirement (2) above rules out crit fishing builds. I think requirement (2) is probably the most restrictive requirement here because we want the character to be able to go nova with minimal set up whenever the situation calls for it.

Any help is appreciated!

For inspiration: these are 1-20, but the the other initial points you make: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ild-compendium

On a sidenote, I don't think group stealth is hampered by heavy armor per se; pass without trace and enhance ability can more than compensate.

Self promotion aside, with these criteria, you can build a lot; dex based paladins and clerics spring to mind immediately, and dex based fighters can be made to work (especially battlemasters for good nova and with tasha's out of combat ability); but most single class casters can do stealth, nova, contribute to other pillars of the game than combat, etc. So your question is a bit broad.

[that_owlbear]

*snip*

Self promotion aside, with these criteria, you can build a lot; dex based paladins and clerics spring to mind immediately, and dex based fighters can be made to work (especially battlemasters for good nova and with tasha's out of combat ability); but most single class casters can do stealth, nova, contribute to other pillars of the game than combat, etc. So your question is a bit broad.

Appreciate the response. My initial reactions are similar that full casters check all the boxes other than maybe their effectiveness at early levels, and probably should be the baseline.

I wanted to keep the inquiry broad initially to keep options open, but if it is too broad I guess I can narrow it.

[RogueJK]

A Medium Armor STR-based or a Light Armor DEX-based Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Sorcadin sounds like it would tick all those (many) boxes.

Either adequate or good at Stealth.
Smite lets you Nova on demand, plus Quicken Metamagic lets you add even a bit more to Nova rounds.
If by "gap close" you mean the ability to quickly close to melee range, then Misty Step could help in situations where your Movement alone wasn't enough.

High CHA means you can be the party Face, plus it has some utility spells for exploration
Access to both Paladin and Sorcerer buff/support spells (and Cleric too, if you go Divine Soul Sorcerer)
Effective at all levels, although your stats will be a little bit spread out either way, since you're wanting to do so much with one character. (Sticking with Heavy Armor would be more straightforward.)

Something like a Half Elf going:
STR 15+1
DEX 12
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 10
CHA 14+2

Or

STR 13
DEX 15+1
CON 13+1
INT 8
WIS 9
CHA 14+2

Sorcerer 1 (for CON saves), then Paladin 2, then Sorcerer up to 8. Sorcerer Bloodline is your call, but Divine Soul or Aberrant Mind would be my suggestions. Use Booming Blade for melee attacks, for scaling damage past Character Level 5. Add Quickened Booming Blade or another Quickened spell in Nova rounds, and Smite as appropriate.

Here's a good Sorcadin guide to peruse to get an idea of how it works, although it's a bit dated and doesn't take into account the latest stuff from recent books. https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...rer-Multiclass

[da newt]

Goblin Shepherd Druid - conjure and hide.

[bendking]

A lot of builds would answer those criteria. Could you narrow it down further?

[Gtdead]

(1) Character cannot be a liability when group stealth.
(7) High survivability / defensiveness is a plus.

This can be taken care of by any character that has proficiency in medium armor + shield, 14 dex and some kind of magical boost to defensive stats. Dipping Hexblade/Cleric is a strong option. Also Bladesingers through Bladesong are naturally good at this, but now that Tasha changed the ability to be used PB times per day, it's less reliable than it used to be.

High survivability can also be taken care of by high mobility. Ranged rogues with dash cunning action aren't easy to kill for example.
------

(2) Character has a solid nova for emergencies.
(5) Good in combat utility/support (whether buff, debuff, control, heals or ally protection).

(5) means that this character is at least full/half caster. (2) The high nova options are Tempest/Zeal cleric, Paladin (single or multi), and Action surge dip.

-------
(4) Can contribute meaningfully to social and/or exploration pillars.

This is open to interpretation. Naturally, the first thing that comes to mind is expertise/jack of all trades/ranger. If you think that you need these abilities in order to contribute meaningfully, then it narrows your options a lot. If you are fine with being a face with 20 CHA or being a spotter with 20 WIS, then any character can contribute meaningfully to social encounters, even barbarians.

A ranger 5/rogue 5 multiclass ticks a lot of boxes, but his support options are limited to spike growth, pass without trace, goodberries and silence. A gloomstalker/assassin has a lot of nova potential too but it can't be used in emergencies. It does have high sustained damage output though.

-------

(3) If melee, has reasonably reliable gap close.

Gap closes really limit your options. You need things like cunning action:dash and expeditious retreat. I think that even for a melee character, getting a reliable ranged attack is more important than a gap closer.

-------

(6) Effective at all levels is a plus.

Thankfully some multiclass options are playable from lvl 1 to 10 without much problem. Usually these involve hexblade dips though ^^, but the ranger/rogue is also very strong throughout.

-------

So according to these notes, I think your best options are:


Paladin base:
Conquest Paladin 9/Hexblade 1
Grab Eldritch Adept (agonizing blast) as vhuman. (It's a new feat from Tasha's)

Ranger base:
Gloomstalker Ranger 5/Assassin Rogue 5
Fairly straightforward. I'd grab Alert and Sharpshooter for this guy.

Warlock base:
Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 8
I'd go for a lvl 5 sorcerer -> 2 hexblade -> lvl 8 sorcerer
While this build is very potent at lvl 10, it will take a while to tick all the boxes.
Can also work with a 3/7 level split but I think the ASI is fairly important.

Cleric base:
Tempest or Zeal Cleric 10
Tempest or Zeal or Light Cleric 8/Fighter 2
Very straightforward, grab Res: Con. You have your channel divinity to nova, which is fairly potent.

Wizard base:
Tempest or Zeal 2/Evoker 8
Hexblade 1/Wizard 9
Bladesinger 10

Usually I dislike playing evoker, but if you want nova, this is your best option IMO. A lvl 7 he can maximize a sculpted fireball or lightning bolt for a lot of safe damage.
A hexblade/wizard can deal some crazy damage with magic missiles, but you need to ask your DM about the interaction.
Bladesinger is good out of the box, but his nova potential is a bit limited. He has high sustained damage though and a lot of gap closers (like expeditious retreat or even misty step if you feel like it). Plus he can use a bow (if elf)

[Nhorianscum]

Greetings, I am in search of optimized builds for Tier 1 and Tier 2 play. Some target parameters below:

* Level 1-10 build
* No UA. Only officially published materials. (I don't have Tasha's yet, so if you are relying on TCoE for a key feature, a bit of explanation is appreciated!)
* Point buy or standard array.
* If possibly, kindly include explanation of the workings of the build at keys levels.
* Feats ok.
* Multiclass ok (kindly advise when to take the various class levels).

Critical requirements:
(1) Character cannot be a liability when group stealth.
(2) Character has a solid nova for emergencies.
(3) If melee, has reasonably reliable gap close.

Key optimization goals:
(4) Can contribute meaningfully to social and/or exploration pillars.
(5) Good in combat utility/support (whether buff, debuff, control, heals or ally protection).
(6) Effective at all levels is a plus.
(7) High survivability / defensiveness is a plus.

And obviously more general utility and damage are always desirable.

Some initial thoughts:

I think requirement (1) above rules out heavy armor builds, and I think requirement (2) above rules out crit fishing builds. I think requirement (2) is probably the most restrictive requirement here because we want the character to be able to go nova with minimal set up whenever the situation calls for it.

Any help is appreciated!

That's just base MA sorc, splash a level of hexblade or cleric if you want. It's about as good as things get.

Extremely High single target nova. Best AoE nova. Social God. Best buffer. Best BC. Stellar sneaking with a side of invisible teleportation. Solid utility.

Metamagic Adept is a feat tax and should be taken at first level. MA is identical in the UA and Tasha's so just roll with it.

Clockwork soul and abberent mind are also identical and are disgustingly powerful.

[Keravath]

Personally, I like the sorlock for this kind of role. A lot of people seem to gush over the quickened agonizing blast but it is useful in a pinch but doesn't really get going until tier 3 or 4 - it does provide some nova ability in tier 2 but I find using sorcery points for twin is usually a better choice.

Anyway, hexblade 2 + sorcerer of choice X

Medium armor, shields and martial weapons for low levels.

2 invocations - Agonizing blast + devils sight is my preference.

Hexblades curse for when you want to do that little bit extra damage.

2 short rest first level spell slots.

Shield and hex spells, eldritch blast and a utility cantrip.

Sorcerer has quickened spell for nova damage or utility and twinned for extra buff/debuff/target.

Divine soul can choose from cleric spells if you really want to take on the support role.

Twinned hold person, protection from evil/good, suggestion, blindness could all be useful options - biggest limitation is the number of spells known.

I find the combination to have very good AC - Medium armor+shield+shield spell - ok hit points - better if you go with dragon sorcerer but the extra spells known on some of the newer sorcerers is better.

Having devils sight automatically makes you the best at moving in the dark and being stealthy (except for a rogue/warlock multiclass with expertise). If you go shadow sorcerer you also get 120' darkvision which means that you see perfectly in all lighting conditions from bright daylight to complete darkness. (usefulness of this depends on the DM and how they make use of lighting in their games).

Good ranged damage if that is what you need with agonizing blast + hex + option to quicken it when needed for nova damage. I have a sorlock character 1 fighter/2 GOO warlock/ 8 dragon sorcerer that has been a lot of fun to play (Yuan-ti pureblood in AL) - haven't used quickened eldritch blast that much since I usually have something better to do with spell slots.

High charisma means that you are decent in social settings with the right skill.

I like variant human since I can take resilient con and start as a warlock for proficiency in wis,cha and con saves.

8 13+1 15+1 10 10 15+1 = 8 14 16 10 10 16

Skills:
stealth
persuasion
investigation
perception
+ 1 more of your choice ... survival if you want to be a bit outdoorsy and have something to contribute to exploration - or deception if you want to focus more on the social side and depending on your back story.

You could drop con to 13+1 and boost both int and wis to 12 if you wanted to role play the character differently (or bump str) ... but 16 con is probably better mechanically.

The character has the AC to stand in the front line in a pinch, the con to maintain concentration on spells, a good selection of spells for buff/debuff/cc or damage depending on what you pick, good social skills, decent stealth - especially when bolstered by the ability to see perfectly in the dark, good sustained damage option with agonizing blast ... combine with hex if you really want to do more damage and can nova that using quicken.

Anyway, I've found it to be one of the more fun and versatile characters I have played and unless you really want to just play it as an agonizing blast spammer it can do FAR more than that, especially in a decent party.

[that_owlbear]

A Medium Armor STR-based or a Light Armor DEX-based Paladin 2/Sorcerer X Sorcadin sounds like it would tick all those (many) boxes.

*snip*

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll take a closer look. I have seen Sorcadins, but never played one. Seems like fun!

[that_owlbear]

Goblin Shepherd Druid - conjure and hide.

I have thought about conjuring/summoning builds, but I wonder about requirement (2) nova potential. Maybe I am missing something?

[that_owlbear]

A lot of builds would answer those criteria. Could you narrow it down further?

I'll think about it some more and try to narrow it down a bit.

[that_owlbear]

Paladin base:
Conquest Paladin 9/Hexblade 1
Grab Eldritch Adept (agonizing blast) as vhuman. (It's a new feat from Tasha's)

Thank you for the suggestions! When would you recommend grabbing Hexblade?

Ranger base:
Gloomstalker Ranger 5/Assassin Rogue 5
Fairly straightforward. I'd grab Alert and Sharpshooter for this guy.

I always thought about the Gloomstalker (whether using PHB Ranger or Revised) would be pretty good at low levels. I guess this build would lean on the first round a bit more with dread ambusher + assassinate, but still solid in later rounds?

Warlock base:
Hexblade 2/Sorcerer 8
I'd go for a lvl 5 sorcerer -> 2 hexblade -> lvl 8 sorcerer
While this build is very potent at lvl 10, it will take a while to tick all the boxes.
Can also work with a 3/7 level split but I think the ASI is fairly important.

Cleric base:
Tempest or Zeal Cleric 10
Tempest or Zeal or Light Cleric 8/Fighter 2
Very straightforward, grab Res: Con. You have your channel divinity to nova, which is fairly potent.

For the multiclass cleric, when would you level fighter? I would imagine cleric 8 -> fighter 2 since cleric early progression seems pretty solid.

Wizard base:
Tempest or Zeal 2/Evoker 8
Hexblade 1/Wizard 9
Bladesinger 10

Usually I dislike playing evoker, but if you want nova, this is your best option IMO. A lvl 7 he can maximize a sculpted fireball or lightning bolt for a lot of safe damage.
A hexblade/wizard can deal some crazy damage with magic missiles, but you need to ask your DM about the interaction.
Bladesinger is good out of the box, but his nova potential is a bit limited. He has high sustained damage though and a lot of gap closers (like expeditious retreat or even misty step if you feel like it). Plus he can use a bow (if elf)

For the cleric/wizard, would you go cleric 2 -> wizard 8? I'd imagine early cleric is probably stronger. I guess levels 4 and 5 are probably this progression's weakest points?

For the hexblade/wizard, I guess this is the nuclear wizard build? As a side note, I have thought about the nuclear wizard build, but I am not sure about building it without Empowered Evocation at Evoker 10?

Again, appreciate the detailed response!

[that_owlbear]

*snip*

Metamagic Adept is a feat tax and should be taken at first level. MA is identical in the UA and Tasha's so just roll with it.

I never thought about Metamagic Adept. I'll look into it now that it's in Tasha. Sounds intriguing!

[that_owlbear]

Good ranged damage if that is what you need with agonizing blast + hex + option to quicken it when needed for nova damage. I have a sorlock character 1 fighter/2 GOO warlock/ 8 dragon sorcerer that has been a lot of fun to play (Yuan-ti pureblood in AL) - haven't used quickened eldritch blast that much since I usually have something better to do with spell slots.

Appreciate the detailed response! For a level 10 build do you think the fighter dip is worth it? Or stick with hexblade 2/sorc 8? It's a bit hard to get a feel for the best sorc subclass since Tasha just came out, but those options seem pretty intriguing!

[RogueJK]

For a level 10 build do you think the fighter dip is worth it? Or stick with hexblade 2/sorc 8?

Not with Hexblade. Anything you'd need from the 1 level Fighter dip you can get from Hexblade (armor and weapon proficiency) and Sorcerer (CON save proficiency if starting as a Sorcerer).

You also don't necessarily need 2 levels of Hexblade, if all you're after is Agonizing Blast. You can get that with 1 level of Warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat, if you'd rather do it that way.

[Gtdead]

Thank you for the suggestions! When would you recommend grabbing Hexblade?

Since I would grab eldritch adept with this build, I'd go for lvl 1 hexblade, then 9 levels of paladin. Since you want a medium armor + dex build due to stealth competence, they offer pretty much the same things at lvl 1. Your lvl 5 won't be very weak due to eldritch blast ad can be further complemented by GFB. You should also take a look at mounted combatant for this build. I'd love to go warlock 2 or 3 for this, but Conquest gets access to fear at lvl 9 Paladin and I think this is more important than another pact spell slot.

I always thought about the Gloomstalker (whether using PHB Ranger or Revised) would be pretty good at low levels. I guess this build would lean on the first round a bit more with dread ambusher + assassinate, but still solid in later rounds?

2 attacks + 3d6 SA (and possibly 2d6 mark) is probably better than what most martials can do at will. And with pass without trace (which should probably be your go to spell), you will get a lot of deadly first rounds. However surprise rounds can be a bit tricky for DMs, so it's good form to ask him how he is going to handle it.

For the multiclass cleric, when would you level fighter? I would imagine cleric 8 -> fighter 2 since cleric early progression seems pretty solid.

That's right.

For the cleric/wizard, would you go cleric 2 -> wizard 8? I'd imagine early cleric is probably stronger. I guess levels 4 and 5 are probably this progression's weakest points?

I'd go 1 cleric -> 5 wizard -> 1 cleric. That second level of cleric isn't that important early. Lvl 4 is quite strong. Lvl 5 is fairly weak because your best bet for damage is greenflame blade, but you get a very strong lvl 7 level nova wise.

For the hexblade/wizard, I guess this is the nuclear wizard build? As a side note, I have thought about the nuclear wizard build, but I am not sure about building it without Empowered Evocation at Evoker 10?

Well, empowered evocation may be better at lvl 10, but hexblade's curse will be better at lvls 2 to 9. You have the option of picking another wizard subclass though like a diviner, necromancer, war or anything that is front loaded and you won't miss the lvl 10 feature.

[that_owlbear]

Not with Hexblade. Anything you'd need from the 1 level Fighter dip you can get from Hexblade (armor and weapon proficiency) and Sorcerer (CON save proficiency if starting as a Sorcerer).

You also don't necessarily need 2 levels of Hexblade, if all you're after is Agonizing Blast. You can get that with 1 level of Warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat, if you'd rather do it that way.

Thanks for the clarification! I guess something V. Human-y to get the extra feat at level 1 would be the goal.

[that_owlbear]

Well, empowered evocation may be better at lvl 10, but hexblade's curse will be better at lvls 2 to 9. You have the option of picking another wizard subclass though like a diviner, necromancer, war or anything that is front loaded and you won't miss the lvl 10 feature.

I appreciate the detailed responses! Diviner v Chronurgy would be a tough choice since I feel Portent is probably packs a better punch, but adding Int to initiative could be effective in any combat to get the control to stick before opponents take their turn. Furthermore, it is hard to turn down the extra survivability from Arcane Deflection or Bladesong bonus. Something to ponder since there are so many ways to go.

[Keravath]

Appreciate the detailed response! For a level 10 build do you think the fighter dip is worth it? Or stick with hexblade 2/sorc 8? It's a bit hard to get a feel for the best sorc subclass since Tasha just came out, but those options seem pretty intriguing!

I only had 1 level of fighter in my build because it was constrained by Adventurer League's +1 source rules (the character was a Yuan-ti pureblood and had Volos as its +1) and could not use Xanathar's for hexblade. Hexblade warlock gives you pretty much everything you would need and fighter doesn't add enough to make it worthwhile so I would go with 2 hexblade/ X sorcerer in your situation.

[Nhorianscum]

Not with Hexblade. Anything you'd need from the 1 level Fighter dip you can get from Hexblade (armor and weapon proficiency) and Sorcerer (CON save proficiency if starting as a Sorcerer).

You also don't necessarily need 2 levels of Hexblade, if all you're after is Agonizing Blast. You can get that with 1 level of Warlock plus the Eldritch Adept feat, if you'd rather do it that way.

PSA: AB has come up enough that we need to have a talk....

Reminder that twinned firebolt in tier 2 is worth (5.5x4=22) damage vs ABEB's ([5+5.5]*2=21) damage.

This expands with empower to a point where even with hexcurse a tier 4 ABEB barely edges out twinned FB, ABEB never out performs draconic twinned FB.

The edge case where ABEB outperforms base twinned empowered FB is vs 1 enemy with hex+hexcurse, and party vs single enemy is sorta already comedically stacked in your favor to the point of not being relevant.

Hexblade 1 is still a fantastic dip.

Agonizing blast and eldrich blast are just traps that a disturbing number of folks fall into.

------------------

That said this seems like a decent use of the level 19 feat. I don't think I'd ever take it over MA, cha+2*2, or res(wis) though.

[Droppeddead]

If you're rolling for stats and roll really well I'd suggest a Variant human, otherwise half-elf. Either go for Paladin 6/Lore Bard 4 or pure Hexblade or possibly Hexblade 8, Paladin 2.

Palabard will probably be the most versatile when it comes to assisting the team and being an all-rounder whereas the Hexblade will be better at dishing out steady damage over time due to Eldritch Blast.

[RogueJK]

PSA: AB has come up enough that we need to have a talk....

Reminder that twinned firebolt in tier 2 is worth (5.5x4=22) damage vs ABEB's ([5+5.5]*2=21) damage.

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. You're comparing a Twinned Firebolt doing 11 damage each to two separate targets to a standard Agonizing Eldritch Blast doing 21 damage to one target.

In addition, that Tier 2 Sorlock can be casting two ABEBs each round for ([5+5.5]*4=42) damage, using Quickened metamagic. Even these can all be focused against one enemy, rather than having to always be split between two targets like Twinned Firebolts. (You won't always have two targets present to attack.)

[Gtdead]

- edit -

No reason for this post anymore.

[Nhorianscum]

Make sure you're comparing apples to apples. You're comparing a Twinned Firebolt doing 11 damage each to two separate targets to a standard Agonizing Eldritch Blast doing 21 damage to one target.

In addition, that Tier 2 Sorlock can be casting two ABEBs each round for ([5+5.5]*4=42) damage, using Quickened metamagic. Even these can all be focused against one enemy, rather than having to always be split between two targets like Twinned Firebolts. (You won't always have two targets present to attack.)

Using a +4 and +5 mod here.

One actual spell is just so much more relevant than 2 ABEB's vs any single target where damage is relevant and nessecary.

Hex+hexcurse level 5 Sray double empowered (hex&Sray) = 95-100 avg. We get room for 1 cantrip in a 3 round encounter with this rotation. 2 in 4 rounds. We're more likely just dodging vs anything with 300+ HP.

ABEB x2 =... 38

We would just always rather use our quicked economy for not cantrips rather than... 19 avg damage. Twinned FB is just actually factually a truck on draconic sorc slapping for 36 empowered damage IE double what ABEB ticks for in tier 2, so it sees use.