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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Why are people concerned about not wearing armor because of monk? Thats losing out on a bunch of magic gear you could be using.
    You're losing 2-3 damage per hit in exchange for +2 in saving throws and one potential effect. With all the accumulated resistances and advantages I don't think it's worth it.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    I'm going to challenge this assumption. Your spellcasting will only be slightly stronger than normal, perhaps enhanced by a couple features, and probably a metamagic. But your weapon attacks will be greatly enhanced. Let's take a look.

    Fighter gives us four attacks. If we're using a one-handed monk weapon, our weapon die is 1d10. Barbarian 20 gives us 24 STR, so +7 to both attack and damage rolls. Dueling gives us +2. Rage bonus is +4. Improved Divine Smite adds 1d8. Lifedrinker adds +5. Aura of Hate adds +5. Sneak Attack adds 10d6, but only on one attack. Bladesinger lets us replace one attack with a cantrip, so for simplicity we'll choose Booming Blade. There's probably other bonuses I'm not thinking of, but lets roll with this for now.

    So, without expending any resources, by taking the attack action we are dealing 4d10 + 7d8 + 10d6 + 92 = 180.5 average damage per Attack action. That's not figuring in using Flurry of Blows to get five more unarmed attacks. If we did want to expend a spell slot, we could smite for an additional 6d8 damage on top of all that, for a total of 207.5 average damage (and we could smite up to four times if we wanted to).

    Damage isn't everything, but to quote my man Phil Swift, that's a lotta damage. And the best part is that you can use your bonus action to quicken a spell anyway, so you can have your cake and eat it, too. Again, though, you'll have to weigh this against using Flurry, or, if trying to conserve resources, just making a bonus action attack.

    In reality, we probably wouldn't be stacking all of those bonuses. If we rage, we can't cast spells, so we probably won't do that. We also may or may not have taken Pact of the Blade, Oathbreaker, or Bladesinger, which would remove those respective bonuses. But, we could also have a magic +3 weapon, or a Flametongue, or other weapon that does extra damage. We could cast Shadow Blade if we don't have a magic weapon. Minimum, we're still looking at 4d10 + 4d8 + 10d6 + 28 = 103 average damage. Oh yeah, and this is before crits are figured in, which, if we're a Champion, will be more likely.

    My point is that our weapon attacks are plenty strong enough that we shouldn't even need spells for most fights, and if we do, then we might benefit most by buffing our weapon attacks further instead of throwing out a damage spell. Control spells are still very useful, and AoE is helpful for clearing hordes, but I think even a Fireball against a group of enemies will struggle to compete in raw damage, it will just spread it out better over a group.

    Still, the basic MO I see is casting a quickened spell to give you an edge, then taking the Attack action to unload a lot of damage (more if you spend spell slots to smite). Rarely, you might twin a spell and use your BA for something else.

    You make a good point for AT, but similar effects can be accomplished with a heightened spell or using the Hound of Ill Omen if a shadow sorc. It's definitely not a bad idea to find some way to force disadvantage on a spell save, but we have a couple of different ways to do it. Each method has their own tradeoffs (AT requires hidden, heightened costs sorcery points and can't combine with other metamagic, Hound also costs sorc points and basically requires engaging in combat). Where the AT shines is when using subtle spell to completely mask the spell. This allows you to cast the spell without engaging your target in any way; you could do it when you pass them walking down the street and they'd never know anything had happened.
    that is a lot of damage. but there is a heck of a lot of raw power behind wall of force, web, hypnotic pattern, entangle, etc to turn one big fight into a whole bunch of 1v1 fights that you are going to win big time. you're going to be spending a lot of time casting spells. heighten is one target, hound is targets adjacent to your hound only (and the hound can be killed) (and costs your bonus action, so there goes your quickened spell), but arcane trickster gives you all targets.

    with that said, I did also include assassin as an alternate option, and it is for much the same reason as arcane trickster.

    you have two rogue options that take what everything else does and massively amplifies it. with assassin you can remove the boss before the fight even begins and probably one or two enemies standing next to them (or, in a normal fight, just kill off half of the enemies with one action, basically allowing you to win the fight before it begins). with arcane trickster your spellcasting is supercharged to a point where enemies will rarely make saving throws at all.

    whether you focus on sword or sorcerery, there is a rogue subclass that supercharges what you can do into the stratosphere, and in neither case is it swashbuckler.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Thats a funny way to say skeever but okay.

    Why are people concerned about not wearing armor because of monk? Thats losing out on a bunch of magic gear you could be using.
    First off, you're a druid. Druids can't use metal armor. That seems like it should have been mentioned by now, but it hasn't. Lets just assume that you're a druid who doesn't care about nature, to make this more cut and dry.


    Well, AC is pretty important, and there are a number of features that work only unarmored. I've not seen any magic armors or shields that really make me stop and go: "This is something I really want to have"

    An AC comparison between the two, assuming you're able to max all of your stats results in this. Unarmored is 10+5 Dex + 7 Con + 5 Int (Bladesong) for 27. Armored is 10+11 (+3 Heavy Armor) + 5 (+3 shield) = 26.

    Now, if you go with the armored version, you're down 1 AC, but it's always on, as opposed to bladesong. However, the unarmored could always grab that same shield, to maintain their AC if it's a real concern.

    Features that you lose when wearing heavy Armor and shield:
    • Fast movement: +10 Speed (Barbarian)
    • Rage (Barbarian) (A lot of benefits, but the restrictions are too harsh for this to be full)
    • Martial Arts: Minimum of a d10 for all attacks, Bonus action attacks, Dex as attack stat(Worthless, considering +7 to strength) (Monk)
    • Unarmored Movement: +30 Speed (Monk)
    • Unarmored Movement Improvement: Move without falling (Monk)
    • Bladesong Bonus 1: Int to concentration checks (Wizard)
    • Bonus 2: +10 speed (Wizard)
    • Bonus 3: Advantage on Dex (Acrobatics) (Wizard)
    • Bonus 4: Int to attacks (Wizard)
    • Bonus 5: Spellslots to block dmg as reaction (5x slot level) (Wizard)
    • Two hands: When you're wearing a shield, you can't use both hands. That's worth noting (Misc)
    • Heavy Armor Impediment: You don't have disadvantage on stealth checks (Misc)


    So that's 50 Movespeed, a d10 weapon die, bonus action attack (Obsolete), Int to attacks and concentration, Advantage on Acrobatics checks, Spellslots to absorb damage that you're losing. If you wear a shield when bladesong isn't up, you lose all of those except for +10 speed, but you have 6 bladesongs per day, so it shouldn't be an issue.

    IMO, even if you work a way around the druid problem, you should still be unarmored.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    First off, you're a druid. Druids can't use metal armor. That seems like it should have been mentioned by now, but it hasn't. Lets just assume that you're a druid who doesn't care about nature, to make this more cut and dry.


    Well, AC is pretty important, and there are a number of features that work only unarmored. I've not seen any magic armors or shields that really make me stop and go: "This is something I really want to have"

    An AC comparison between the two, assuming you're able to max all of your stats results in this. Unarmored is 10+5 Dex + 7 Con + 5 Int (Bladesong) for 27. Armored is 10+11 (+3 Heavy Armor) + 5 (+3 shield) = 26.

    Now, if you go with the armored version, you're down 1 AC, but it's always on, as opposed to bladesong. However, the unarmored could always grab that same shield, to maintain their AC if it's a real concern.

    Features that you lose when wearing heavy Armor and shield:
    • Fast movement: +10 Speed (Barbarian)
    • Rage (Barbarian) (A lot of benefits, but the restrictions are too harsh for this to be full)
    • Martial Arts: Minimum of a d10 for all attacks, Bonus action attacks, Dex as attack stat(Worthless, considering +7 to strength) (Monk)
    • Unarmored Movement: +30 Speed (Monk)
    • Unarmored Movement Improvement: Move without falling (Monk)
    • Bladesong Bonus 1: Int to concentration checks (Wizard)
    • Bonus 2: +10 speed (Wizard)
    • Bonus 3: Advantage on Dex (Acrobatics) (Wizard)
    • Bonus 4: Int to attacks (Wizard)
    • Bonus 5: Spellslots to block dmg as reaction (5x slot level) (Wizard)
    • Two hands: When you're wearing a shield, you can't use both hands. That's worth noting (Misc)
    • Heavy Armor Impediment: You don't have disadvantage on stealth checks (Misc)


    So that's 50 Movespeed, a d10 weapon die, bonus action attack (Obsolete), Int to attacks and concentration, Advantage on Acrobatics checks, Spellslots to absorb damage that you're losing. If you wear a shield when bladesong isn't up, you lose all of those except for +10 speed, but you have 6 bladesongs per day, so it shouldn't be an issue.

    IMO, even if you work a way around the druid problem, you should still be unarmored.
    Couldn’t you just wear light armor? It would be one less then plate, but you would be able to use Bladesong and Rage, which would make your AC 30. The only benefits you’d lose would be the monk ones.

    Edit:
    Forgot you couldn’t use a shield either, so AC would be 25 with a +3 shield or with bladesong and without a shield, which means it isn’t really that helpful.
    Last edited by Aeriox; 2020-11-28 at 09:32 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aeriox View Post
    Couldn’t you just wear light armor? It would be one less then plate, but you would be able to use Bladesong and Rage, which would make your AC 30. The only benefits you’d lose would be the monk ones.

    Edit:
    Forgot you couldn’t use a shield either, so AC would be 25 with a +3 shield or with bladesong and without a shield, which means it isn’t really that helpful.
    There's really no point to wearing light or medium armor. As a barbarian, you get Unarmored Defense, where ac is equal to 10+Dex+Con, or 10+5+7. Light armor would be 12+3(magic)+5, and medium would be the same deal.

    Rage is honestly a raw deal, as it has quite a few restrictions. This character will be best off being a melee beast, but it should still cast spells, such as bonus action cantrips (BB or EB) and extra attack replacements. Rage also necessitates using strength, but that's not the worst thing that could happen, given a +7 to strength.


    I agree with greywander slightly, you'll be making 3 attacks with very good bonuses (lifedrinker, bladesong, smite, improved divine smite, eldritch smite, dueling, aura of hate, etc.), a cantrip, and then some use of your bonus action. (Tunnel fighter against many enemies, quicken or flurry or anything else against a few). Your spellcasting will be better than normal, but not out of this world. However, I wouldn't use rage, except in the most dire of straits, where that resistance would save your life.

    Right now it seems as though the clear winner for (combat capability) wizard is bladesinger, but that's about the only one that's so clear cut.
    Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2020-11-28 at 11:00 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by WaroftheCrans View Post
    First off, you're a druid. Druids can't use metal armor.

    Unarmored is 10+5 Dex + 7 Con + 5 Int (Bladesong) for 27
    Armored is 10+11 (+3 Heavy Armor) + 5 (+3 shield) = 26.

    Now, if you go with the armored version, you're down 1 AC, but it's always on, as opposed to bladesong. However, the unarmored could always grab that same shield, to maintain their AC if it's a real concern.

    So that's 50 Movespeed, a d10 weapon die, bonus action attack (Obsolete), Int to attacks and concentration, Advantage on Acrobatics checks, Spellslots to absorb damage that you're losing. If you wear a shield when bladesong isn't up, you lose all of those except for +10 speed, but you have 6 bladesongs per day, so it shouldn't be an issue.
    Fair enough. I chose not to use bladesinger and instead go with Armor Arty and Forge Cleric for a stealth archer that can also use a shield (AC 25 with infusions) but i can see where unarmored would be useful for raw speed and melee if thats what you’re going for.

    Adamantine armor feels like it would be pretty desirable, especially if you could stack artificer infusions on top of it. Are there any other ways to ignore crits?

    Edit: I just realized that Tempest Cleric could work really well with the lightning launcher, which would also free up rogue to take some other subclass like Thief or Phantom
    Last edited by Kane0; 2020-11-29 at 03:54 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    I would dispute “your casting isnt much better than a regular full caster”. You have two uses of action surge, 20 sorcery points, and mystic arcanum for double the normal number of high level slots. You can easily open each combat with two twinned ninth level spells and a quickened eldritch blast. And then do it again on the second turn with two 8th level spells. Certainly you can stack more damage onto attacks, but you’re still going to be absurdly more powerful than a ‘regular caster’

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    I would dispute “your casting isnt much better than a regular full caster”. You have two uses of action surge, 20 sorcery points, and mystic arcanum for double the normal number of high level slots. You can easily open each combat with two twinned ninth level spells and a quickened eldritch blast. And then do it again on the second turn with two 8th level spells. Certainly you can stack more damage onto attacks, but you’re still going to be absurdly more powerful than a ‘regular caster’
    You will certainly be more powerful than a standard caster. You won't be absurdly more powerful.

    We've all been operating under the assumption that you will be going through a full adventuring day at an appropriate challenge level. This means that you have the same number of slots as a standard caster, plus the pact magic and sp. You're never going to want to blow a 9th unless you have to, and that arcanum will be foresight.
    I also disagreed that the casting wouldn't be much better, but while he was underselling it, you are over selling it.

    The unexplored angle is the simulacrum. The simulacrum can do all of the melee shenanigans, while running around on a greater steed, with permanent advantage from its arcanum, and an abundance of sorcery points to use. Simulacrum is usually thought of as powerful, here you're slapping it onto the most powerful melee chassis possible.

    Re: Kane I was thinking the character would rarely have the luxury of being ranged, and chose accordingly. Adamantine is a good point but my set of assumptions included foresight for enemy disadvantage, making adamantine mostly redundant

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cybren View Post
    I would dispute “your casting isnt much better than a regular full caster”. You have two uses of action surge, 20 sorcery points, and mystic arcanum for double the normal number of high level slots. You can easily open each combat with two twinned ninth level spells and a quickened eldritch blast. And then do it again on the second turn with two 8th level spells. Certainly you can stack more damage onto attacks, but you’re still going to be absurdly more powerful than a ‘regular caster’
    You wouldn’t be able to add the quickened cantrip to those with the bonus action casting rules. Action Surged double 9ths and 8ths is still quite strong though, so I’d say the point still stands.
    E: assuming you’re in a situation where you’re willing to nova like that at least.
    Last edited by Darc_Vader; 2020-11-30 at 02:05 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    I updated the OP with what seems like the best subclass picks to me. Obviously there's a lot of room for flexibility (you can totally play toward a theme if you like, e.g. taking all death-themed subclasses for an undead character.

    The two I haven't figured out yet are rogue and barbarian. I don't think barbarian really matters that much, since most subclass features key off of Rage and we likely won't Rage often, if ever. Rogue is a lot trickier. Assassin really allows us to finish a tough fight in the first round, or at least dramatically shift the odds in our favor. AT imposes disadvantage on saves vs. our spells if we're hidden, which can be really useful (especially if combined with Subtle Spell). I haven't seen Thief mentioned as much; we get an entire second turn on the first round of combat. Now that I lay it out, AT does seem like it might be the most useful.

    Phantom also seems pretty good. You can splash your Sneak Attack damage onto another creature, and the soul trinkets can be used to get extra uses of your limited use features, or give you advantage on CON saves just by having one on your person. You can also go through walls, similar to the Shadow sorcerer.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    I picked the Swashbuckler over the thief, b/c I like the initiative bonus and b/c I like the ability to hit something and then walk away from it without provoking an OA, as well as the persuasion check and easy early game advantage. Phantom just provides a few extra points of damage to one creature (meh).. It does let us go through walls, but by that point we have spells that can do that. Assassin just kills one thing harder, which we already do anyway (meh). Of course thief is a big deal b/c of the lvl 17 ability, but it takes forever to come online.

    There is an argument for the shadow sorcerer, simply b/c hound of ill omen provides a hard to find advantage and provides a more efficient usage than eg heighten spell.

    Barbarian is a lost class, which is why I picked Tempest for the one non rage ability. If I didn't have Bladesinger, I would probably take Zealot and use the BA rage.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Nobody in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greywander View Post
    I updated the OP with what seems like the best subclass picks to me. Obviously there's a lot of room for flexibility (you can totally play toward a theme if you like, e.g. taking all death-themed subclasses for an undead character.

    The two I haven't figured out yet are rogue and barbarian. I don't think barbarian really matters that much, since most subclass features key off of Rage and we likely won't Rage often, if ever. Rogue is a lot trickier. Assassin really allows us to finish a tough fight in the first round, or at least dramatically shift the odds in our favor. AT imposes disadvantage on saves vs. our spells if we're hidden, which can be really useful (especially if combined with Subtle Spell). I haven't seen Thief mentioned as much; we get an entire second turn on the first round of combat. Now that I lay it out, AT does seem like it might be the most useful.

    Phantom also seems pretty good. You can splash your Sneak Attack damage onto another creature, and the soul trinkets can be used to get extra uses of your limited use features, or give you advantage on CON saves just by having one on your person. You can also go through walls, similar to the Shadow sorcerer.

    I don't think Barbarian is a total waste. Without rage, you still get-

    Unarmored Defense
    Reckless Attack
    +10 movement
    Brutal Critical
    Indomitable Might
    Primal Champion

    It's also worth noting that you don't have to be raging to get the Berserker's Intimidating Presence and Retaliation features. Retaliation in particular is VERY strong especially when you're reliably throwing Sneak Attack's off-turn. Even if you never go into a Frenzy your whole career, Berserker is a good pick.

    As far as Rogue goes.... no mention of Scout? I like ALL of the Scout's features. Sudden Strike is great!

    I see why Bladesinger is a top pick for this, but I still would take Abjurer instead. I feel like this build doesn't really need any additional offensive boosts that the Bladesinger has to offer. The Bladesinger does offer some defensive perks, but the Abjurer makes you a defensive powerhouse. You could easily keep your 45hp Arcane Ward up and you could keep an upcasted Armor of Agathys on too for an even bigger buffer. Improved Abjuration and Spell Resistance are both excellent features too.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hael View Post
    I picked the Swashbuckler over the thief, b/c I like the initiative bonus and b/c I like the ability to hit something and then walk away from it without provoking an OA, as well as the persuasion check and easy early game advantage. Phantom just provides a few extra points of damage to one creature (meh).. It does let us go through walls, but by that point we have spells that can do that. Assassin just kills one thing harder, which we already do anyway (meh). Of course thief is a big deal b/c of the lvl 17 ability, but it takes forever to come online.

    There is an argument for the shadow sorcerer, simply b/c hound of ill omen provides a hard to find advantage and provides a more efficient usage than eg heighten spell.

    Barbarian is a lost class, which is why I picked Tempest for the one non rage ability. If I didn't have Bladesinger, I would probably take Zealot and use the BA rage.
    Wait, resistance to all but one of the damage types is "a lost class"? :O Not to mention som eof the other goodies.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by CTurbo View Post
    I don't think Barbarian is a total waste.
    I just meant that it doesn't really matter which subclass you pick. Most subclass features boost your Rage ability, while all of the good stuff (if you're not raging) comes from the base class. You get a few non-rage features from some of the subclasses, but none of them really jump out as being the best. They're all fairly minor things, so you'll probably do fine just picking whatever seems best to you.

    As far as Rogue goes.... no mention of Scout? I like ALL of the Scout's features. Sudden Strike is great!
    I was actually going to bring up the Scout, but looking over its features again I noticed that it still competes with your action economy. Something like the Thief gives you a really strong passive benefit (the extra turn on round 1), as does the Assassin. AT does require using your BA to hide, but at least it's a passive boost to an existing action, rather than an entirely new action. Scout is strong, and might not be a bad pick, but I'm not sure it's the best fit for this type of build.

    I see why Bladesinger is a top pick for this, but I still would take Abjurer instead. I feel like this build doesn't really need any additional offensive boosts that the Bladesinger has to offer. The Bladesinger does offer some defensive perks, but the Abjurer makes you a defensive powerhouse. You could easily keep your 45hp Arcane Ward up and you could keep an upcasted Armor of Agathys on too for an even bigger buffer. Improved Abjuration and Spell Resistance are both excellent features too.
    I do think Abjurer is a decent option. But in the game of rocket tag, I think Bladesinger will allow you to output more than 45 damage over the course of one or two rounds. Also, outputting damage earlier allows you to take out an enemy before they attack you, saving you some damage. You might actually take less damage by killing things sooner with Bladesinger than you would using the Abjurer's ward to protect you. The ward does combo amazingly with Armor of Agathys, I will say that. Also, don't forget that with Jack of All Trades we're already adding half our proficiency bonus to Counterspell and Dispel Magic checks. Spell Resistance is nice, especially if we're not going Ancients paladin, but becomes more and more redundant the more damage resistances we accumulate, so that's something to consider. It's definitely not a bad choice, that's for sure.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Warwizard could be nice. The reaction +2AC is beaten by Spellmastery Shield, but +2 to a save you fail can be nice. +int to Ini is good.
    +2AC & saves when concentrating on a spell is good. Some extra force damage when you do damage with a wizard spell(and have a power surge point) doesn't take any actions, and you are really good at counterspelling & dispelling due to bard & rogue. Lastly the free dmg when you use arcane deflection won't come up much, but it's free dmg when it does.

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Eagle Eye Totem Barb sounds a very nice pickup for sniping via Eldritch Spear, Longbow and/or Armourer Lightning. Especially since you have virtually every stealth boost possible to hide again afterwards.
    And being totem you can still pick up bear for your oh-crap defense boost if caught in close quarters.
    Roll for it
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    So, given what you said, order of levelling would be important, perhaps even more than final result. As such...

    First, we must be an elf.

    1. Moon druid 1-20. Very versatile and strong base for solo play. Max wis and dex, get warcaster. Then...

    2. Monk 18, probably open hand. Also, at 15 monk 20 druid you are now functionnaly pretty much immortal, so you have time to level everything. Saves are covered, your melee power is great, you have 9th level spellcasting and infinite hp along with incredible mobility. Transforming into a small animal and using quivering palm makes you an absolutely terrifying assassin.

    3. Ftr 2 for action surge.

    4. Sorcerer 18, the spell list complement your existing power nicely, and we can now bonus action cast a lot. Shadow is real nice here. We also start switching to boosting Cha.

    5. Paladin 6, for the aura and smiting. We can now burn spell slots on melee attack, and we got spell slots to burn...

    6. Hexblade Warlock 2, for eldritch blast.

    7. Bladesinger wizard 6, for that cantrip instead of an attack, which is now a full power eblast.

    8. Fighter 20, I'll agree on champion. We want those four attacks to CRIT SMITE. We definitely switched somewhere along the way to rapier and shield and stop using wildshape for combat most of the time. At this point we got the slots for foresight everyday too.

    9. Wizard to 18. We want int to damage, wish and simulacrum, at-will level 1-2 spells, all that jazz.

    10. Warlock to 12, for cha damage to weapon attack and SMITE.

    11. Whisper bard 15th, for expertise and jack of all trade and PSYCHIC SMITE.

    12. Gloomstalker ranger 3

    13. Rogue Swashbuckler 20, to add that sneak attack and get more expertise.

    14. Cleric death domain. More smiting potential here.

    15. finish off all existing classes to 20

    16 Artifcer, battlesmith has more pseudo-smite.

    17. Barbarian, but we use very little of the class.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droppeddead View Post
    Wait, resistance to all but one of the damage types is "a lost class"? :O Not to mention som eof the other goodies.
    In the context of the build I posted, and eg the ops current build, the character doesn’t rage bc it takes a ba and is redundant with a lot of other features. For instance we already have resistance to most things. In particular it’s clashy with the bladesinger (who allows a cantrip in the long attack chain) and it shuts down spellcasting (so it clashes with a lot of features). One actually loses dpr by raging bc of the loss of double eldritch blast.

    Perhaps another build can make it work.
    Last edited by Hael; 2020-11-30 at 07:10 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Orc in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droppeddead View Post
    Wait, resistance to all but one of the damage types is "a lost class"? :O Not to mention som eof the other goodies.
    Opportunity cost is immense... the bonus damage is only on melee weapon used with str, it breaks concentration and prevent spellcasting.

    plus, Monk can get the equivalent with none of the restriction...

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Pixie in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Im going to suggest Horizon Walker over Gloom Stalker. It gives us way more mobility and an extra attack each round, and it stacks with fighter Extra Attack, something that potentially isn't the case with Bladesinger (since features with the same name don't stack, and bladesinger's replacing an attack for cantrip has the same feature name as Fighters capstone, it's possible you would have to choose between 4 attacks or an attack+cantrip.)

    Beast Barbarian could be a great choice as well, offering us an additional attack each round with claws, totalling to 9 attacks each round in concert with the Horizon Walker and Drunken Master.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    EvilClericGuy

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Droppeddead View Post
    Wait, resistance to all but one of the damage types is "a lost class"? :O Not to mention som eof the other goodies.
    Rage is not worth it. Also, depending on how lactose in/tolerant you are treating this (Lets use cheese, we've got a lvl 260 character, why not?), you can use wish + simulacrum to get resistance to all of the damage types (Example given by the wish spell, but still carries the 33% risk, so simulacrum) .

    My official list

    Artificer: If you can pre buff, alchemist. If not, battlesmith. Sure, it won't be worth it to direct the steel defender, but battlesmith still gets extra damage, and the steel defender can take reactions and move around. It can provide flanking bonuses and distract from you.

    Barbarian: Zealot. It's a decent panic button, if you're about to die, you start raging, and continue doing so until combat ends and you can heal. Also works nicely for a simulacrum, and can be treated as a bonus action dealing 1d6+20 damage otherwise.

    Bard: Swords or Whispers. Whispers includes some out of combat utility as well as in combat, that works nicely, but swords outperforms in combat.

    Cleric: I have not decided which I would like to choose, but I will say that I believe twilight is not a no-brainer. You already have good darkvision, advantage on initiative (Barbarian's feral instinct), flight and everything else you would want. All that leaves is a really good channel divinity. My list would be twilight, arcana, life, death, peace and tempest.
    Twilight for the channel divinity, arcana for free wishes (one per week divine intervention), death for the twinning and damage, Tempest for the CD and if you can deal lightning damage with attacks, it's a 10 foot shove for free, peace for the bond, and life for the healing boost.
    I would not choose twilight if I had a good way of receiving refreshing THP, would not choose tempest if melee attacks don't deal lightning damage, etc. Ultimately, it depends on how you're playing things.

    Druid: Either Stars or Spores. Stars gets some nice features, as well as resistance to all BPS damage. Shepherd is good for its healing (Replaces champion regen if necessary), and a great stat when you're solo is to summon a bunch of friends to help you out. The more I look at this character idea, the more I realize that combats are likely to be multiround affairs, perhaps closing in on the 1 minute mark. I don't like moon, as the wildshape will be a decided downgrade most of the time. Zealot is my panic button, if I really need one. There are ok utility forms for all druids.

    Fighter: I would go with samurai here. My warlock will be the hexblade, so the benefit from champion is a small increase to crit range, a 4th fighting style and regen when under 50% hp. It's not a bad choice, particularly since it synergizes with the simulacrum, but I prefer samurai for the following reasons. It's a permanent bonus attack, as you will ostensibly always have advantage on at least one attack a turn, bringing you up to 5. It adds bonus proficiencies, and the wisdom to charisma checks lets you be even more of a diplomancer. Strength before death is the cherry on top that really lets us take advantage of that panic button.

    Monk: Kensei gives us +2 ac, more damage and unerring accuracy. The second place way would be drunken master, is its boosts are to flurry of blows or redundant. Flurry of blows competes with our very busy bonus action, so kensei is my preferred one.

    Paladin: Oath of conquest for lockdown and utility (lots of ways to fear opponents), oathbreaker if you foresee yourself doing necromancy or summoning fiends.

    Ranger: Horizon walker is my first choice, bringing our attacks up to 7 an action, with 70 ft teleport, gloomstalker is my second choice for the great boosts in umbral sight, dread ambusher and stalkers flurry. Since we have other ways to become invisible (Notably, the monk lvl 18 feature), and Horizon walkers extra attack is more likely to occur than gloomstalkers, which brings it down to that initiative bonus vs the teleport. Since I see the first round as a prep round, I'm going with Horizon walker.

    Rogue: Thief. The bonus turn is too good to pass on. Otherwise swashbuckler or scout.

    Sorcerer: Draconic. +1 hp per level, a really fast permanent fly speed, Bonus to damage rolls, and a fear aura that can work with oath of conquest. Shame you can't get a force dragon

    Warlock: Hexblade. Transferring the hexblade's curse is free, and the goodies are great. Otherwise, fiendlock for the luck feature and THP or Goolock for utility. I'm not too big on needing utility subclass features, since you have full casting of pact magic and full casting of spellcasting feature, as well as all of the proficiencies, and maxed stats.

    Wizard: Bladesinger.

    The general idea is that you win initiative thanks to your high bonuses from bard, barbarian, and alert, and then take two turns of buffing, possibly action surging. You have yourself, your simulacrum, your familiar, your similacrum's familiar, your greater found steed, your simulacrum's greater found steed, your steel defender, your simulacrum's steel defender, your homunculus, your simulacrum's homunculus, and all of the summons. You have a metric ton of buffs, resistance to all damage, and 6 5th level slots that come back on a short rest, as well as more SP and Ki than you know what to do with. You are very hard to take down, and can deal a lot of damage. Out of combat, you have plenty of spells, and extremely high bonuses (Likely +22 to all Cha checks).

    Note: I started this two days ago, I just didn't have the time to finish it or post it till now. Hope the discussion hasn't left it behind

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Default Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?

    Thinking about this topic a bit more, I don't think there's a single definitive subclass for each class for a build like this. Some are definitely better than others, but there's a few classes that have more than one good choice of subclass. Specifically, I was thinking some more about the ranger.

    For the Gloom Stalker, the major benefits are the being invisible in darkness, the extra attack and speed on your first turn, and being able to make an extra attack if you miss.
    For the Horizon Walker, the major benefits are being able to teleport 10 feet before each attack (requires Attack action, so no BA attacks or OAs), and can make an extra attack against a third target if you attack at least two.
    For Fey Wanderer, the major benefits are the psychic damage on your attacks, which can trigger once per target per turn. Most effective when each attack is on a different target. Also, adding WIS mod to all CHA checks (combos nicely with CHA-based Counterspell or Dispel Magic).

    Each of these also has some less exciting traits, so what's listed above isn't the only good things about each subclass. The Horizon Walker and Fey Wanderer seem to work better against groups of enemies, while the Gloom Stalker has the edge against singular foes. Horizon Walker has more mobility, and unlike the Fey Wanderer, doesn't need to spread out all their attacks to different targets as long as they attack at least three enemies. The Fey Wanderer's bonus to CHA checks can make them extremely charismatic, especially combined with Reliable Talent and possibly Expertise.

    Also, I suppose it's an important question of whether we're adventuring solo, or in a party. If you're solo, it's not a bad idea to have an answer to multiple monsters (I mean, we have Fireball, so...).

    There's a few other classes where I can also see there being room for choices:

    Alchemist artificer is noteworthy because of the passive benefits, but Battle Smith gives you a pet that can help you get Sneak Attacks, and also makes non-monk magic weapons use INT in order to qualify for Elven Accuracy (if you're an elf).

    Oathbreaker paladin is probably the strongest choice, but Conquest is also a strong choice with a lot of good passive abilities. Especially considering that certain other classes/subclasses can give you at-will fear effects, you could build specifically around this. The "thorns" damage when you take a hit combos nicely with Armor of Agathys and Abjurer wizard, and can greatly help you against hordes of weak monsters. Most other paladin oaths are also fine, if not quite as strong.

    Cleric also has a lot of good options. Twilight does seem to stand out as the strongest, but a different domain could still work pretty well. The main appeal of Twilight is the 300 foot darkvision, which can't be gotten anywhere else, and will give you a significant edge against other enemies relying on darkvision. Twilight also has a strong channel divinity option as well. But you could probably do fine with most cleric domains.

    And so on. I think in general, you could start by picking almost any subclass for a single class, and then build the rest of your character around that. Necromancer/Oathbreaker is a known combo, for example. There are a number of subclasses that have features that would boost a subclass from a different class, but often either the level investment is more than most people are willing to pay for a multiclass, or you literally don't have enough levels to get both abilities.

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