Results 31 to 52 of 52
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2020-11-27, 06:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jul 2017
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2020-11-27, 08:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2014
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
that is a lot of damage. but there is a heck of a lot of raw power behind wall of force, web, hypnotic pattern, entangle, etc to turn one big fight into a whole bunch of 1v1 fights that you are going to win big time. you're going to be spending a lot of time casting spells. heighten is one target, hound is targets adjacent to your hound only (and the hound can be killed) (and costs your bonus action, so there goes your quickened spell), but arcane trickster gives you all targets.
with that said, I did also include assassin as an alternate option, and it is for much the same reason as arcane trickster.
you have two rogue options that take what everything else does and massively amplifies it. with assassin you can remove the boss before the fight even begins and probably one or two enemies standing next to them (or, in a normal fight, just kill off half of the enemies with one action, basically allowing you to win the fight before it begins). with arcane trickster your spellcasting is supercharged to a point where enemies will rarely make saving throws at all.
whether you focus on sword or sorcerery, there is a rogue subclass that supercharges what you can do into the stratosphere, and in neither case is it swashbuckler.
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2020-11-28, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
First off, you're a druid. Druids can't use metal armor. That seems like it should have been mentioned by now, but it hasn't. Lets just assume that you're a druid who doesn't care about nature, to make this more cut and dry.
Well, AC is pretty important, and there are a number of features that work only unarmored. I've not seen any magic armors or shields that really make me stop and go: "This is something I really want to have"
An AC comparison between the two, assuming you're able to max all of your stats results in this. Unarmored is 10+5 Dex + 7 Con + 5 Int (Bladesong) for 27. Armored is 10+11 (+3 Heavy Armor) + 5 (+3 shield) = 26.
Now, if you go with the armored version, you're down 1 AC, but it's always on, as opposed to bladesong. However, the unarmored could always grab that same shield, to maintain their AC if it's a real concern.
Features that you lose when wearing heavy Armor and shield:
- Fast movement: +10 Speed (Barbarian)
- Rage (Barbarian) (A lot of benefits, but the restrictions are too harsh for this to be full)
- Martial Arts: Minimum of a d10 for all attacks, Bonus action attacks, Dex as attack stat(Worthless, considering +7 to strength) (Monk)
- Unarmored Movement: +30 Speed (Monk)
- Unarmored Movement Improvement: Move without falling (Monk)
- Bladesong Bonus 1: Int to concentration checks (Wizard)
- Bonus 2: +10 speed (Wizard)
- Bonus 3: Advantage on Dex (Acrobatics) (Wizard)
- Bonus 4: Int to attacks (Wizard)
- Bonus 5: Spellslots to block dmg as reaction (5x slot level) (Wizard)
- Two hands: When you're wearing a shield, you can't use both hands. That's worth noting (Misc)
- Heavy Armor Impediment: You don't have disadvantage on stealth checks (Misc)
So that's 50 Movespeed, a d10 weapon die, bonus action attack (Obsolete), Int to attacks and concentration, Advantage on Acrobatics checks, Spellslots to absorb damage that you're losing. If you wear a shield when bladesong isn't up, you lose all of those except for +10 speed, but you have 6 bladesongs per day, so it shouldn't be an issue.
IMO, even if you work a way around the druid problem, you should still be unarmored.
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2020-11-28, 09:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2019
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Couldn’t you just wear light armor? It would be one less then plate, but you would be able to use Bladesong and Rage, which would make your AC 30. The only benefits you’d lose would be the monk ones.
Edit:
Forgot you couldn’t use a shield either, so AC would be 25 with a +3 shield or with bladesong and without a shield, which means it isn’t really that helpful.Last edited by Aeriox; 2020-11-28 at 09:32 PM.
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2020-11-28, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
There's really no point to wearing light or medium armor. As a barbarian, you get Unarmored Defense, where ac is equal to 10+Dex+Con, or 10+5+7. Light armor would be 12+3(magic)+5, and medium would be the same deal.
Rage is honestly a raw deal, as it has quite a few restrictions. This character will be best off being a melee beast, but it should still cast spells, such as bonus action cantrips (BB or EB) and extra attack replacements. Rage also necessitates using strength, but that's not the worst thing that could happen, given a +7 to strength.
I agree with greywander slightly, you'll be making 3 attacks with very good bonuses (lifedrinker, bladesong, smite, improved divine smite, eldritch smite, dueling, aura of hate, etc.), a cantrip, and then some use of your bonus action. (Tunnel fighter against many enemies, quicken or flurry or anything else against a few). Your spellcasting will be better than normal, but not out of this world. However, I wouldn't use rage, except in the most dire of straits, where that resistance would save your life.
Right now it seems as though the clear winner for (combat capability) wizard is bladesinger, but that's about the only one that's so clear cut.Last edited by WaroftheCrans; 2020-11-28 at 11:00 PM.
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2020-11-29, 03:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Fair enough. I chose not to use bladesinger and instead go with Armor Arty and Forge Cleric for a stealth archer that can also use a shield (AC 25 with infusions) but i can see where unarmored would be useful for raw speed and melee if thats what you’re going for.
Adamantine armor feels like it would be pretty desirable, especially if you could stack artificer infusions on top of it. Are there any other ways to ignore crits?
Edit: I just realized that Tempest Cleric could work really well with the lightning launcher, which would also free up rogue to take some other subclass like Thief or PhantomLast edited by Kane0; 2020-11-29 at 03:54 AM.
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2020-11-29, 03:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2006
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
I would dispute “your casting isnt much better than a regular full caster”. You have two uses of action surge, 20 sorcery points, and mystic arcanum for double the normal number of high level slots. You can easily open each combat with two twinned ninth level spells and a quickened eldritch blast. And then do it again on the second turn with two 8th level spells. Certainly you can stack more damage onto attacks, but you’re still going to be absurdly more powerful than a ‘regular caster’
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2020-11-29, 12:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
You will certainly be more powerful than a standard caster. You won't be absurdly more powerful.
We've all been operating under the assumption that you will be going through a full adventuring day at an appropriate challenge level. This means that you have the same number of slots as a standard caster, plus the pact magic and sp. You're never going to want to blow a 9th unless you have to, and that arcanum will be foresight.
I also disagreed that the casting wouldn't be much better, but while he was underselling it, you are over selling it.
The unexplored angle is the simulacrum. The simulacrum can do all of the melee shenanigans, while running around on a greater steed, with permanent advantage from its arcanum, and an abundance of sorcery points to use. Simulacrum is usually thought of as powerful, here you're slapping it onto the most powerful melee chassis possible.
Re: Kane I was thinking the character would rarely have the luxury of being ranged, and chose accordingly. Adamantine is a good point but my set of assumptions included foresight for enemy disadvantage, making adamantine mostly redundant
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2020-11-30, 02:03 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2019
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- Canada
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
You wouldn’t be able to add the quickened cantrip to those with the bonus action casting rules. Action Surged double 9ths and 8ths is still quite strong though, so I’d say the point still stands.
E: assuming you’re in a situation where you’re willing to nova like that at least.Last edited by Darc_Vader; 2020-11-30 at 02:05 AM.
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2020-11-30, 02:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
I updated the OP with what seems like the best subclass picks to me. Obviously there's a lot of room for flexibility (you can totally play toward a theme if you like, e.g. taking all death-themed subclasses for an undead character.
The two I haven't figured out yet are rogue and barbarian. I don't think barbarian really matters that much, since most subclass features key off of Rage and we likely won't Rage often, if ever. Rogue is a lot trickier. Assassin really allows us to finish a tough fight in the first round, or at least dramatically shift the odds in our favor. AT imposes disadvantage on saves vs. our spells if we're hidden, which can be really useful (especially if combined with Subtle Spell). I haven't seen Thief mentioned as much; we get an entire second turn on the first round of combat. Now that I lay it out, AT does seem like it might be the most useful.
Phantom also seems pretty good. You can splash your Sneak Attack damage onto another creature, and the soul trinkets can be used to get extra uses of your limited use features, or give you advantage on CON saves just by having one on your person. You can also go through walls, similar to the Shadow sorcerer.
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2020-11-30, 04:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
I picked the Swashbuckler over the thief, b/c I like the initiative bonus and b/c I like the ability to hit something and then walk away from it without provoking an OA, as well as the persuasion check and easy early game advantage. Phantom just provides a few extra points of damage to one creature (meh).. It does let us go through walls, but by that point we have spells that can do that. Assassin just kills one thing harder, which we already do anyway (meh). Of course thief is a big deal b/c of the lvl 17 ability, but it takes forever to come online.
There is an argument for the shadow sorcerer, simply b/c hound of ill omen provides a hard to find advantage and provides a more efficient usage than eg heighten spell.
Barbarian is a lost class, which is why I picked Tempest for the one non rage ability. If I didn't have Bladesinger, I would probably take Zealot and use the BA rage.
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2020-11-30, 05:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Mar 2018
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- Nashville, TN
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
I don't think Barbarian is a total waste. Without rage, you still get-
Unarmored Defense
Reckless Attack
+10 movement
Brutal Critical
Indomitable Might
Primal Champion
It's also worth noting that you don't have to be raging to get the Berserker's Intimidating Presence and Retaliation features. Retaliation in particular is VERY strong especially when you're reliably throwing Sneak Attack's off-turn. Even if you never go into a Frenzy your whole career, Berserker is a good pick.
As far as Rogue goes.... no mention of Scout? I like ALL of the Scout's features. Sudden Strike is great!
I see why Bladesinger is a top pick for this, but I still would take Abjurer instead. I feel like this build doesn't really need any additional offensive boosts that the Bladesinger has to offer. The Bladesinger does offer some defensive perks, but the Abjurer makes you a defensive powerhouse. You could easily keep your 45hp Arcane Ward up and you could keep an upcasted Armor of Agathys on too for an even bigger buffer. Improved Abjuration and Spell Resistance are both excellent features too.
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2020-11-30, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
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2020-11-30, 03:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
I just meant that it doesn't really matter which subclass you pick. Most subclass features boost your Rage ability, while all of the good stuff (if you're not raging) comes from the base class. You get a few non-rage features from some of the subclasses, but none of them really jump out as being the best. They're all fairly minor things, so you'll probably do fine just picking whatever seems best to you.
As far as Rogue goes.... no mention of Scout? I like ALL of the Scout's features. Sudden Strike is great!
I see why Bladesinger is a top pick for this, but I still would take Abjurer instead. I feel like this build doesn't really need any additional offensive boosts that the Bladesinger has to offer. The Bladesinger does offer some defensive perks, but the Abjurer makes you a defensive powerhouse. You could easily keep your 45hp Arcane Ward up and you could keep an upcasted Armor of Agathys on too for an even bigger buffer. Improved Abjuration and Spell Resistance are both excellent features too.
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2020-11-30, 04:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2016
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Warwizard could be nice. The reaction +2AC is beaten by Spellmastery Shield, but +2 to a save you fail can be nice. +int to Ini is good.
+2AC & saves when concentrating on a spell is good. Some extra force damage when you do damage with a wizard spell(and have a power surge point) doesn't take any actions, and you are really good at counterspelling & dispelling due to bard & rogue. Lastly the free dmg when you use arcane deflection won't come up much, but it's free dmg when it does.
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2020-11-30, 04:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2011
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- Waterdeep
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Eagle Eye Totem Barb sounds a very nice pickup for sniping via Eldritch Spear, Longbow and/or Armourer Lightning. Especially since you have virtually every stealth boost possible to hide again afterwards.
And being totem you can still pick up bear for your oh-crap defense boost if caught in close quarters.Roll for it 5e Houserules and Homebrew
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2020-11-30, 06:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
So, given what you said, order of levelling would be important, perhaps even more than final result. As such...
First, we must be an elf.
1. Moon druid 1-20. Very versatile and strong base for solo play. Max wis and dex, get warcaster. Then...
2. Monk 18, probably open hand. Also, at 15 monk 20 druid you are now functionnaly pretty much immortal, so you have time to level everything. Saves are covered, your melee power is great, you have 9th level spellcasting and infinite hp along with incredible mobility. Transforming into a small animal and using quivering palm makes you an absolutely terrifying assassin.
3. Ftr 2 for action surge.
4. Sorcerer 18, the spell list complement your existing power nicely, and we can now bonus action cast a lot. Shadow is real nice here. We also start switching to boosting Cha.
5. Paladin 6, for the aura and smiting. We can now burn spell slots on melee attack, and we got spell slots to burn...
6. Hexblade Warlock 2, for eldritch blast.
7. Bladesinger wizard 6, for that cantrip instead of an attack, which is now a full power eblast.
8. Fighter 20, I'll agree on champion. We want those four attacks to CRIT SMITE. We definitely switched somewhere along the way to rapier and shield and stop using wildshape for combat most of the time. At this point we got the slots for foresight everyday too.
9. Wizard to 18. We want int to damage, wish and simulacrum, at-will level 1-2 spells, all that jazz.
10. Warlock to 12, for cha damage to weapon attack and SMITE.
11. Whisper bard 15th, for expertise and jack of all trade and PSYCHIC SMITE.
12. Gloomstalker ranger 3
13. Rogue Swashbuckler 20, to add that sneak attack and get more expertise.
14. Cleric death domain. More smiting potential here.
15. finish off all existing classes to 20
16 Artifcer, battlesmith has more pseudo-smite.
17. Barbarian, but we use very little of the class.
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2020-11-30, 07:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
In the context of the build I posted, and eg the ops current build, the character doesn’t rage bc it takes a ba and is redundant with a lot of other features. For instance we already have resistance to most things. In particular it’s clashy with the bladesinger (who allows a cantrip in the long attack chain) and it shuts down spellcasting (so it clashes with a lot of features). One actually loses dpr by raging bc of the loss of double eldritch blast.
Perhaps another build can make it work.Last edited by Hael; 2020-11-30 at 07:10 PM.
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2020-11-30, 07:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Oct 2015
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
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2020-12-01, 11:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Im going to suggest Horizon Walker over Gloom Stalker. It gives us way more mobility and an extra attack each round, and it stacks with fighter Extra Attack, something that potentially isn't the case with Bladesinger (since features with the same name don't stack, and bladesinger's replacing an attack for cantrip has the same feature name as Fighters capstone, it's possible you would have to choose between 4 attacks or an attack+cantrip.)
Beast Barbarian could be a great choice as well, offering us an additional attack each round with claws, totalling to 9 attacks each round in concert with the Horizon Walker and Drunken Master.
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2020-12-02, 03:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2020
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Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Rage is not worth it. Also, depending on how lactose in/tolerant you are treating this (Lets use cheese, we've got a lvl 260 character, why not?), you can use wish + simulacrum to get resistance to all of the damage types (Example given by the wish spell, but still carries the 33% risk, so simulacrum) .
My official list
Artificer: If you can pre buff, alchemist. If not, battlesmith. Sure, it won't be worth it to direct the steel defender, but battlesmith still gets extra damage, and the steel defender can take reactions and move around. It can provide flanking bonuses and distract from you.
Barbarian: Zealot. It's a decent panic button, if you're about to die, you start raging, and continue doing so until combat ends and you can heal. Also works nicely for a simulacrum, and can be treated as a bonus action dealing 1d6+20 damage otherwise.
Bard: Swords or Whispers. Whispers includes some out of combat utility as well as in combat, that works nicely, but swords outperforms in combat.
Cleric: I have not decided which I would like to choose, but I will say that I believe twilight is not a no-brainer. You already have good darkvision, advantage on initiative (Barbarian's feral instinct), flight and everything else you would want. All that leaves is a really good channel divinity. My list would be twilight, arcana, life, death, peace and tempest.
Twilight for the channel divinity, arcana for free wishes (one per week divine intervention), death for the twinning and damage, Tempest for the CD and if you can deal lightning damage with attacks, it's a 10 foot shove for free, peace for the bond, and life for the healing boost.
I would not choose twilight if I had a good way of receiving refreshing THP, would not choose tempest if melee attacks don't deal lightning damage, etc. Ultimately, it depends on how you're playing things.
Druid: Either Stars or Spores. Stars gets some nice features, as well as resistance to all BPS damage. Shepherd is good for its healing (Replaces champion regen if necessary), and a great stat when you're solo is to summon a bunch of friends to help you out. The more I look at this character idea, the more I realize that combats are likely to be multiround affairs, perhaps closing in on the 1 minute mark. I don't like moon, as the wildshape will be a decided downgrade most of the time. Zealot is my panic button, if I really need one. There are ok utility forms for all druids.
Fighter: I would go with samurai here. My warlock will be the hexblade, so the benefit from champion is a small increase to crit range, a 4th fighting style and regen when under 50% hp. It's not a bad choice, particularly since it synergizes with the simulacrum, but I prefer samurai for the following reasons. It's a permanent bonus attack, as you will ostensibly always have advantage on at least one attack a turn, bringing you up to 5. It adds bonus proficiencies, and the wisdom to charisma checks lets you be even more of a diplomancer. Strength before death is the cherry on top that really lets us take advantage of that panic button.
Monk: Kensei gives us +2 ac, more damage and unerring accuracy. The second place way would be drunken master, is its boosts are to flurry of blows or redundant. Flurry of blows competes with our very busy bonus action, so kensei is my preferred one.
Paladin: Oath of conquest for lockdown and utility (lots of ways to fear opponents), oathbreaker if you foresee yourself doing necromancy or summoning fiends.
Ranger: Horizon walker is my first choice, bringing our attacks up to 7 an action, with 70 ft teleport, gloomstalker is my second choice for the great boosts in umbral sight, dread ambusher and stalkers flurry. Since we have other ways to become invisible (Notably, the monk lvl 18 feature), and Horizon walkers extra attack is more likely to occur than gloomstalkers, which brings it down to that initiative bonus vs the teleport. Since I see the first round as a prep round, I'm going with Horizon walker.
Rogue: Thief. The bonus turn is too good to pass on. Otherwise swashbuckler or scout.
Sorcerer: Draconic. +1 hp per level, a really fast permanent fly speed, Bonus to damage rolls, and a fear aura that can work with oath of conquest. Shame you can't get a force dragon
Warlock: Hexblade. Transferring the hexblade's curse is free, and the goodies are great. Otherwise, fiendlock for the luck feature and THP or Goolock for utility. I'm not too big on needing utility subclass features, since you have full casting of pact magic and full casting of spellcasting feature, as well as all of the proficiencies, and maxed stats.
Wizard: Bladesinger.
The general idea is that you win initiative thanks to your high bonuses from bard, barbarian, and alert, and then take two turns of buffing, possibly action surging. You have yourself, your simulacrum, your familiar, your similacrum's familiar, your greater found steed, your simulacrum's greater found steed, your steel defender, your simulacrum's steel defender, your homunculus, your simulacrum's homunculus, and all of the summons. You have a metric ton of buffs, resistance to all damage, and 6 5th level slots that come back on a short rest, as well as more SP and Ki than you know what to do with. You are very hard to take down, and can deal a lot of damage. Out of combat, you have plenty of spells, and extremely high bonuses (Likely +22 to all Cha checks).
Note: I started this two days ago, I just didn't have the time to finish it or post it till now. Hope the discussion hasn't left it behind
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2020-12-03, 07:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Nov 2017
Re: Best subclass choices if you can raise every class to 20 on one character?
Thinking about this topic a bit more, I don't think there's a single definitive subclass for each class for a build like this. Some are definitely better than others, but there's a few classes that have more than one good choice of subclass. Specifically, I was thinking some more about the ranger.
For the Gloom Stalker, the major benefits are the being invisible in darkness, the extra attack and speed on your first turn, and being able to make an extra attack if you miss.
For the Horizon Walker, the major benefits are being able to teleport 10 feet before each attack (requires Attack action, so no BA attacks or OAs), and can make an extra attack against a third target if you attack at least two.
For Fey Wanderer, the major benefits are the psychic damage on your attacks, which can trigger once per target per turn. Most effective when each attack is on a different target. Also, adding WIS mod to all CHA checks (combos nicely with CHA-based Counterspell or Dispel Magic).
Each of these also has some less exciting traits, so what's listed above isn't the only good things about each subclass. The Horizon Walker and Fey Wanderer seem to work better against groups of enemies, while the Gloom Stalker has the edge against singular foes. Horizon Walker has more mobility, and unlike the Fey Wanderer, doesn't need to spread out all their attacks to different targets as long as they attack at least three enemies. The Fey Wanderer's bonus to CHA checks can make them extremely charismatic, especially combined with Reliable Talent and possibly Expertise.
Also, I suppose it's an important question of whether we're adventuring solo, or in a party. If you're solo, it's not a bad idea to have an answer to multiple monsters (I mean, we have Fireball, so...).
There's a few other classes where I can also see there being room for choices:
Alchemist artificer is noteworthy because of the passive benefits, but Battle Smith gives you a pet that can help you get Sneak Attacks, and also makes non-monk magic weapons use INT in order to qualify for Elven Accuracy (if you're an elf).
Oathbreaker paladin is probably the strongest choice, but Conquest is also a strong choice with a lot of good passive abilities. Especially considering that certain other classes/subclasses can give you at-will fear effects, you could build specifically around this. The "thorns" damage when you take a hit combos nicely with Armor of Agathys and Abjurer wizard, and can greatly help you against hordes of weak monsters. Most other paladin oaths are also fine, if not quite as strong.
Cleric also has a lot of good options. Twilight does seem to stand out as the strongest, but a different domain could still work pretty well. The main appeal of Twilight is the 300 foot darkvision, which can't be gotten anywhere else, and will give you a significant edge against other enemies relying on darkvision. Twilight also has a strong channel divinity option as well. But you could probably do fine with most cleric domains.
And so on. I think in general, you could start by picking almost any subclass for a single class, and then build the rest of your character around that. Necromancer/Oathbreaker is a known combo, for example. There are a number of subclasses that have features that would boost a subclass from a different class, but often either the level investment is more than most people are willing to pay for a multiclass, or you literally don't have enough levels to get both abilities.