D&D Subclass Contest Chat Thread 2: Joke Entries Win with Alarming Frequency

[Ilerien]

@Ilerien, I'm a big fan of removing the upcasting component for fail-free divination spells. Using a spell slot to cast it rather than doing so as a ritual is a big enough resource cost for the guaranteed clarity IMO. I feel like the d6 boost is probably enough to last the career of the Serindipity cleric too and a nice boost for a luck-based class, but again could be wrong there. I just had a thought that as an alternate you could roll 2d4 and take the highest, but a d6 probably feels better at the table.

I thought of this ersatz advantage for d4, but 2 rolls instead of one might impact pace of the game a bit (especially with upcast bless or bane), so decided in favor of improved die. d6 is probably good enough.

I can see the reasoning behind keeping Twist Fate & Uncanny Insight as they are. I'm not sure I agree that Twist Fate would be too much for a dip though if it got pushed to prof bonus per long rest, mostly because it cannot "cancel" advantage or disadvantage or be used like Lucky to turn disadvantage into triple advantage - it is really just "another go" at whatever you were doing, complete with the conditions that you were doing it in.

You're probably correct that it isn't all that powerful, but if we tie switching a prepared spell to CD, we might end up with a cleric who shuffles through their entire spell list with ease. I guess nerfing it as per nickl_2000's suggestion (cast any cleric spell you can prepare, but still use a spell slot) would balance the scales.

I guess a cheesiest-case scenario would be something like a GWM Vengeance Paladin attacking at advantage through their CD using it to "double" crit-fish on their attack rolls, but at that point if they're investing 13 into Wisdom to multiclass they're breaking away from the 15/8/15/8/8/15 build most "optimal" pallys gun for, so there's an inherent trade-off. I suppose a BM or Samurai fighter could do it better/in a less MAD way. Again, maybe you're right on the power level, and the Uncanny Insight scaling at level 8 is less of an anomaly than it feels - I just can't think of another Cleric that gets something at 8 besides Potent Spellcasting/Divine Strike.

The cheesiest-case scenario would be a spellcaster with elven accuracy fishing for crits with some high-level spell that uses an attack roll. :)

Anyway, I made several changes to straighten the subclass. Still undecided on Twist Fate/Uncanny Insight juxtaposition, will think about it some more when my schedule allows. Thanks for the advice! :)

[nickl_2000]

@nickl

I think the way Magical Coins is worded now would limit it to one coin per attack action - maybe it should say "replace one or more attacks"? Hahaha - sorry for the pedantry! or maybe steal the wording from Shove which is mechanically similar: "If you’re able to make multiple attacks with the Attack action, this Attack replaces one of them."

Tightened up the wording again "any time you make an attack as part of an attack action, you may replace one or more of the attacks with throwing a magical coin"

[MoleMage]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...7#post25395527

Wow that voting does sneak up on me every time. I guess I won't complete an entry once more around but that's okay. Good luck to all the entrants!

[nickl_2000]

Only 2 voters so far, go out there and vote!

[MoleMage]

Alrighty it is time to call the thread, so here's where we landed in the end:

Our third place winner, with 9 points earned, Oerlaf's Gentleman of Fortune Roguish Archetype. Whether you're an explorer, a pirate, or a privateer, this class lets you live the hey-day of maritime fiction!

In second place, with 10 points earned, nickl_2000's Coinslinger Martial Archetype. Finally, a reason to include electrum pieces in your game world!

Finally first place, with 13 points earned, goes to Ilerien's Serendipity Domain! Tug on the strings of luck! See the future! Access wish as a cleric spell!

Thanks everyone who contributed, this contest's continued thriving input is heartwarming to see.

And for our next contest, Refine Mayhem took the cake handily, with It's Technical coming in second, so it will be in next month's pool. We also had a write-in for Easter, which I will add to the suggestion pool as "This Season On", for classes themed around the current season (northern hemisphere, solely because I live there), including any holidays that fall within that season. I'll come up with a (non)witty name for each specific season whenever it rolls up.

Wow I really need to update the first post again I'm like three contests behind. Anyway, voting is called, and the new submission thread will be up soon!

[nickl_2000]

Congrats on the great entries all, looking forward to some major refining!

[MoleMage]

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...8#post25410588

New thread just landed!

EDIT: I also updated the initial post to the current contest. If anyone tracks the frequency statistics I tally or wants to look up the last three winners, you actually can now.

[MoleMage]

I am back in it! Finally got a handle on my life and myself (or at least one of those two), so I knocked together a variant Berserker. It's probably a little rough, but I'll try to revise it (unless I lose my handle, in which case I'll hope I did okay the first time). Looking forward to the new Beast Master and new Four Elements as well as everything else yet to come.

[Crim the Cold]

I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.

What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?

[Snowben Gaming]

Back at it.

The Way of the Elements Monk is for the most part done. It's still got a few things left to do, but everything that is unfinished are just options so as there is at least one choice for everything, you should be able to tell how the unfinished stuff should work so any early thoughts would be very much appreciated.

As a note: I made the rework with my homebrew world in mind, which has 6 elements total: fire, earth, metal, water, wood & air. You could very easily just remove the wood and metal stuff though and it'd work perfectly fine... I think.

This whole thing got out of hand quite fast as I was planning. I might have done too much in a single subclass lol. I'm not even sure if what I've made is cohesive anymore. oops

So yeah, I have no idea if this actually flows well or if the features are balanced compared to each other, but I've got 5 weeks to get it fully done so even if it isn't there yet, I've got time.

I'll get on reviews as soon as I'm finished (or before if I get stuck (looking at you metal elemental strike)).

[Snowben Gaming]

I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.

What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?

I can't speak officially but I would say that's perfectly ok!

[nickl_2000]

I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.

What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?

Like an arcane archer modified to be an artificer subclass? I don't run the contest, but sounds legit to me and we tend to be fairly liberal when it comes to those rules.

[tzurk]

Gonna look at doing a revised Champion fighter for this contest.

Ideas:

Fighting Styles "level up" as you gain features - a popular one online - probably one at 3 to go along expanded crit and another one at 10
Deal Str/Dex mod damage when you miss?
Expand Remarkable Athlete to actually be meaningful

[MoleMage]

I have a question about the scope of Refine Mayhem.

What if I think a subclass would fit better reworked for another character class? Is that still within scope or out of it?

That's fine with me. The subclass is still getting rewritten, after all.

[Old Harry MTX]

Seriously thinking of refining the Eldritch Knight, probably recicling the mechanics of another class of mine that should fit the role... Let's see if I can tie all together in something original enough!

[tzurk]

Champion draft is up in the submission thread. Open to any and all feedback at this stage - and every stage up until voting!

I've always been attracted to the "fighting man" archetype in fantasy fiction as a sort of everyman proxy for the reader in a world of wizards and fantastic beasts. Guy with sword vs the world, leave the fancy tricks at the door.

Champion seems like it was designed with this concept in mind, but was also intended to create the easiest subclass to pick up and play for the total beginner to TTRGs. With no meaningful decision points or added mechanical complexity and its defining feature (the expanded crit range) only triggering an additional 5% of the time, it can come off a little bland and underwhelming.

I have never seen anyone play a Champion in real life, and only heard it discussed as a 3-level dip for critfishing builds online. In this revision, I want to keep the subclass mechanically simple (compared to e.g. maneuvers of a Battle Master, spells of an Eldritch Knight) but create enough interest and power in the features to make it an attractive enough fighter archetype to stand on its own for a monoclassed player.

Things are a bit all over the place atm and probably overtuned in general, but I'll polish it up over the coming weeks.

I'm not sure if it makes sense to keep Improved Critical but it's such an iconic feature of the subclass that I'm finding it's hard to call any build that removes it still a "Champion"...

thoughts -

- add Tasha's fighting styles to signature FS
- maybe swap levels of signature weapon & signature FS, give back second fighting style @ 10
- maybe cap Indomitable = Legendary Resistance at 1/long rest

[sengmeng]

Did a weird take on Soulknife: the official one is a rogue subclass, and I... disagree. Now it's available in a slightly different version to fighter, monk, and rogue, and stacks with itself if you multiclass and take it in more than one of those classes.

[tzurk]

1st round of feedback, starting from the bottom up -

sengmeng's Soul Knife - a really interesting concept, never seen anything like this before. For the purpose of collecting my thoughts, the subclass feature levels for the 3 classes are:

Fighter: 3, 7, 10, 15, 18

Monk: 3, 6, 11, 17

Rogue: 3, 9, 13, 17

Mind Blade: everybody gets this at 3rd level, along with their unique way to get more out of their mind blades. 1d8 psychic finesse is all good. Turning a BA (or really two BAs, to resummon the blade next turn) into a crit is an interesting mechanic, which would usually benefit a rogue much more than the other two due to sneak attack. The monk-only benefit seems great up until 11th level when their martial arts die catches up, and at/after 17 it takes a backward step. Fighter benefit seems ok, being able to attack, BA auto-crit, action surge and get the blade back to auto-crit again on the next turn without having to wait a turn to resummon. Rogue benefit seems a bit restrictive - is it a maximum once per combat trigger, or do I not understand the surprise rules?

Meditation - monks get it at 6, fighters at 7, rogues not til 9 (!). The way the description reads, I think a monk/fighter or monk/rogue or rogue/fighter would also get it at 6, as it's the second time they get a soul knife feature - is that right?

I didn't read through all of these to check for balance; will try and do that at a later stage. I like the player agency you offer through the sheer variety of options. Arsenal of the Mind - I would just change the damage to 1d12 rather than 1d8+1d4. I read Force Shield twice and I'm still not sure exactly how it should work.

Improved Mind Blade - ah, changing the die size like I said above won't work. Monks get it at 11, just in time to stay relevant ahead of their martial arts die (nice). Fighters at 10, rogues at 13. Fighters get an extra boost @ 18. Why 2d6 over 1d12 this time?

No feature for monk/rogue 17 or fighter 15?

Psychic Bladestorm - if I read it right this encourages a monk/rogue multiclass but has no benefit for a fighter - is that right? Unless you're thinking fighter 11+ for 3 attacks for 3 potential sneak attack triggers. Oh wait - action surge. So something like Fighter 3/monk 5/rogue x looks good for potentially 4 sneak attacks a turn, plus one as a BA with a ki point.

A really crazy and interesting concept that I'm not sure i can imagine fully yet but does seem to have some well thought out depth and synergy to it. Cool is the word that first comes to mind.


MoleMage's Berserker

Wakened Fury - good looking mechanic, for ease of reading should it come below Frenzy?

Frenzy - a fun way to reimagine the original feature - BIG damage barb, woo! Do I just lose my spent rage if I miss? That sucks. Could you instead only lose it if you make the hit? (is 2d12 enough damage to spend a whole rage on?)

Mindless Rage - all goods

Indomitable - just for defense against being grappled by medium/small creatures, not for offense in grappling dragons? If you end your turn and you are stunned - does this still consume a use of rage (precious resource for this barb)? Tricky wording for the second paragraph but it's all clear.

Intimidation Stance - another option to weaponise BA for when you dont want to frenzy. What's the DC if you have never hit them? How do I remember the damage if I hit them three rounds ago and then got pushed into another baddie?

Retaliation - this is an interesting way to eke some extra use out of your subclass features, but I think I prefer the original version of just giving a "free" reaction attack for being hit just for its consistency - doubling up on Frenzy could potentially make for some fun nova turns at the cost of an expensive resource (7 rages per day at this point including the 2 you get back from Wakened Fury), and frightened is a super powerful condition if you've got casters or a BM or something in your party to force some saving throws at disadv. Having said that I don't necessarily think it's OP, just different.

Will have to do the Elements monk and Beastmaster at a later stage. Good stuff everyone, these are fun to read!

[sengmeng]

1st round of feedback, starting from the bottom up -

sengmeng's Soul Knife - a really interesting concept, never seen anything like this before. For the purpose of collecting my thoughts, the subclass feature levels for the 3 classes are:

Fighter: 3, 7, 10, 15, 18

Monk: 3, 6, 11, 17

Rogue: 3, 9, 13, 17

Mind Blade: everybody gets this at 3rd level, along with their unique way to get more out of their mind blades. 1d8 psychic finesse is all good. Turning a BA (or really two BAs, to resummon the blade next turn) into a crit is an interesting mechanic, which would usually benefit a rogue much more than the other two due to sneak attack. The monk-only benefit seems great up until 11th level when their martial arts die catches up, and at/after 17 it takes a backward step. Fighter benefit seems ok, being able to attack, BA auto-crit, action surge and get the blade back to auto-crit again on the next turn without having to wait a turn to resummon. Rogue benefit seems a bit restrictive - is it a maximum once per combat trigger, or do I not understand the surprise rules?

Meditation - monks get it at 6, fighters at 7, rogues not til 9 (!). The way the description reads, I think a monk/fighter or monk/rogue or rogue/fighter would also get it at 6, as it's the second time they get a soul knife feature - is that right?

I didn't read through all of these to check for balance; will try and do that at a later stage. I like the player agency you offer through the sheer variety of options. Arsenal of the Mind - I would just change the damage to 1d12 rather than 1d8+1d4. I read Force Shield twice and I'm still not sure exactly how it should work.

Improved Mind Blade - ah, changing the die size like I said above won't work. Monks get it at 11, just in time to stay relevant ahead of their martial arts die (nice). Fighters at 10, rogues at 13. Fighters get an extra boost @ 18. Why 2d6 over 1d12 this time?

No feature for monk/rogue 17 or fighter 15?

Psychic Bladestorm - if I read it right this encourages a monk/rogue multiclass but has no benefit for a fighter - is that right? Unless you're thinking fighter 11+ for 3 attacks for 3 potential sneak attack triggers. Oh wait - action surge. So something like Fighter 3/monk 5/rogue x looks good for potentially 4 sneak attacks a turn, plus one as a BA with a ki point.

A really crazy and interesting concept that I'm not sure i can imagine fully yet but does seem to have some well thought out depth and synergy to it. Cool is the word that first comes to mind.

Hey, thanks! That's some pretty good feedback, I will definitely consider some adjustments. It was intentional to make combat interesting with the careful use of action economy via the manifest/collapse bonus action mechanic.

To clarify: It's easy to miss, but the fourth upgrade is a second meditation, just like the fifth is a second boost to damage, thrown range, and crit "range" as part of the "Improved Mind Blade" description. I didn't have another name for those second upgrades, so I didn't give them their own paragraphs. As far as the damage die going to 2d6 versus 1d12, since it's possible to get the great weapon fighting style on this character concept, I went with the better damage die for it.

Also, I believe the only way to actually get this subclass six times is fighter 10/Monk 6/ Rogue 3, at 19th level (and then if you don't take fighter for the last level I have to assume there's something wrong with you). So the benefits of Psychic Bladestorm are to reflect the optimal use of that exact build, granting you things to use your ki on, ways to get extra sneak attack, and the fighter gets nothing because it's actually got everything it needs in its base form to help create this one round nova of death: action surge. And it is correct usually that the rogue would only get one free manifest per combat, same for the fighter until 17th level.

[Snowben Gaming]

Have a quick review:

Spoiler: Path of the Berserker Revised

Show

Overall, I think this is very well made and that it achieves your aims excellently. I might actually offer this to my players instead of original berserker tbh.

Wakened Fury
A rage equivalent of Arcane/Natural Recovery is pretty sweet, especially useful as rage is also a nova resources thanks to frenzy

Frenzy
I'd do some maths for this, but it'd be completely arbitrary and with no real baseline, so I'm just gonna judge this without and leave the maths to someone more experienced.
I like this, its a lot of damage but its not like you can just do this every turn. I really like having to expend uses of rage to do it as it provides an alternative sacrifice to gaining exhaustion, as per your intentions.

Mindless Rage
Not much to say here really, it was a decent feature in the original berserker, its a decent feature here.

Indomitable
A useful addition as I always thought that level 10 for the original berserker was really bad, so even if you have fixed Intimidating Presence with Intimidation Stance, this is still a welcome addition. I'm a bit curious as to why you can have your speed reduced by an amount but not to an amount. May I ask why? Having just read the examples for the ways your speed can be reduced, I think I get it, but I'd still like to hear the thought process behind it anyways.

Intimidation Stance
The original berserker's Intimidating Presence but as a bonus action and with different DC. The bonus action makes sense as you're gonna be attacking with your actions as a barbarian. The DC calculation is cool, but raises the question: can you use this on a creature you haven't hit yet?

Retaliation
I approve of adding the option to Intimidation Stance (and love the flavour for it), but I'm not sure about replacing the basic attack with Frenzy as you could've run out of uses. What about offering a basic attack as an alternative option to Frenzy or Intimidation Stance?

Champion & Soulknife will take me a bit longer to do as I want to read through all the options, so I'll probably get them done after I finish my entry.

[nickl_2000]

My first draft of the Artificer Alchemist re-write is out there. Feel free to comment if you have time. I will touch it up a little bit more in the next few days and then get my own reviews out there for others.

[MoleMage]

Thanks for the feedback! I will reply and return the favor once I have a bit of free time.

[tzurk]

Hey, thanks! That's some pretty good feedback, I will definitely consider some adjustments. It was intentional to make combat interesting with the careful use of action economy via the manifest/collapse bonus action mechanic.

To clarify: It's easy to miss, but the fourth upgrade is a second meditation, just like the fifth is a second boost to damage, thrown range, and crit "range" as part of the "Improved Mind Blade" description. I didn't have another name for those second upgrades, so I didn't give them their own paragraphs. As far as the damage die going to 2d6 versus 1d12, since it's possible to get the great weapon fighting style on this character concept, I went with the better damage die for it.

Also, I believe the only way to actually get this subclass six times is fighter 10/Monk 6/ Rogue 3, at 19th level (and then if you don't take fighter for the last level I have to assume there's something wrong with you). So the benefits of Psychic Bladestorm are to reflect the optimal use of that exact build, granting you things to use your ki on, ways to get extra sneak attack, and the fighter gets nothing because it's actually got everything it needs in its base form to help create this one round nova of death: action surge. And it is correct usually that the rogue would only get one free manifest per combat, same for the fighter until 17th level.

Ahh right, I see the second Meditation feature now. Makes sense to me. For 2d6 v 1d12, my thinking was that if you can choose when to crit, you might want the bigger damage dice for more oomph. Cool to see how the triple multiclass comes together for the final feature!

Also - should the rogue maybe get thrown a bone w/ their 3rd level bonus since they have to wait til 9 for their second feature? Not too sure off the top of my head, but something that can trigger more than 1/combat? Maybe interacting with cunning action somehow - like after taking the disengage or aim BAs

Feedback round 2

Snowben Gaming's Elements Monk

I love the OG 4 elements and it has a soft spot in my heart as the first character I ever played in 5e was one. Notoriously underperforming and often revised so let's see how this one goes!

Elemental Initiate - cool, fluffy, useful. Like it.

Elemental Strike - powerful feature at this level as most classes dont get the "counts as magical damage" ability til 6. The riders are cool and thematic and seem relatively balanced. Should Wood be temp HP rather than a real heal? 1 ki is not a huge investment and I'm not too sure what the precedent is for monks but is there a way you can add a base effect and then the rider - maybe + Wis mod or a 1d4 to the elemental damage, then the DC with potential effect after? Maybe that swings it too hard the other way - i am just personally always a bit iffy about features that cost limited resources to potentially do nothing

Elemental Attunements - spellcasting with Ki. Feels weird for this to come at 6! Could this potentially come at 3, and you separate the riders section of Elemental Strike into a separate ability that comes at level 6? It opens you up to more spellcasting earlier on and lets you keep fiery punches too.

Elemental Flurry - thats a nice power boost and depending on the attunement spell lists could open up some interesting combos. I am a biiiig fan of cast and slash in the same turn - just feels nice.

Elemental Avatar - the Investiture spells are awesome and it's nice to see them incentivised. Could something be added at the end of this feature to allow you to use the Elemental Flurry BA when you activate one of these spells so that it doesn't feel like you "waste" a whole turn buffing up?

Oerlaf, I might come back to your BM ranger when the features are filled out a bit more! Exciting start though. Viper, fetch!

nickl_2000's Alchemist

Yeeeeeah buddy, Artificers are awesome, and I feel like artillerist/armorer/battle smith all nail their briefs but the official alchemist just misses the mark (1 elixer per day? blahhh...) so let's see what we've got!

Spell list feels good. I could see what WOTC were going for by giving them healing spells but it felt a bit hamfisted.

Alchemical Mixes - feels very alchemisty to mix potions and hurl them in battle. A good spread of effects. Would love to see a few more battlefield controlly ones, something like a mini-Grease or Fog Cloud type ability.

Create Potions - yeeeahh, more potions! It's probably a full action to drink the potion as per DMG or wherever those roles are but is that the intention here as well? Can you bottle a damage spell and throw it at the enemy?

Quick Alchemy - suddenly 5 potions per short rest. Would feel like a great milestone for this subclass. Love the free alchemy jug too - fluffy and a great magic item that sadly sometimes get pushed back for more +1s...

Alchemy Mastery - interesting capstone. Not having to prepare the potion spell seems great and making it an action means you can rip an emergency whatever into a bottle and chug it next turn or pass it to the fighter.

Overall seems really great man. A much more active "alchemist" than the official one!

[Snowben Gaming]

Snowben Gaming's Elements Monk

I love the OG 4 elements and it has a soft spot in my heart as the first character I ever played in 5e was one. Notoriously underperforming and often revised so let's see how this one goes!

Elemental Initiate - cool, fluffy, useful. Like it.

Elemental Strike - powerful feature at this level as most classes dont get the "counts as magical damage" ability til 6. The riders are cool and thematic and seem relatively balanced. Should Wood be temp HP rather than a real heal? 1 ki is not a huge investment and I'm not too sure what the precedent is for monks but is there a way you can add a base effect and then the rider - maybe + Wis mod or a 1d4 to the elemental damage, then the DC with potential effect after? Maybe that swings it too hard the other way - i am just personally always a bit iffy about features that cost limited resources to potentially do nothing

Elemental Attunements - spellcasting with Ki. Feels weird for this to come at 6! Could this potentially come at 3, and you separate the riders section of Elemental Strike into a separate ability that comes at level 6? It opens you up to more spellcasting earlier on and lets you keep fiery punches too.

So I completely forgot monks get magic physical damage for their punches at level 6 when I wrote this which is why I gave Elemental Strike at 3rd. And yeah, the spells would make more sense to come at 3rd. So I might just swap the two features entirely and slightly buff Elemental Strike (make the riders slightly stronger and add some bonus damage before the save as per your suggestion) as you get it later.
As for Wood being temp HP, I will say that makes much more sense and will be implemented.

Elemental Flurry - thats a nice power boost and depending on the attunement spell lists could open up some interesting combos. I am a biiiig fan of cast and slash in the same turn - just feels nice.

Elemental Avatar - the Investiture spells are awesome and it's nice to see them incentivised. Could something be added at the end of this feature to allow you to use the Elemental Flurry BA when you activate one of these spells so that it doesn't feel like you "waste" a whole turn buffing up?

Yeah, I'm definitely gonna let you flurry when you use these. I thought I already had tbh, but then I realised it only triggers for Attunement spells as these ones don't use ki.

Thanks for the feedback!

I'll get on feedback for yours when I've finished mine.

[nickl_2000]

nickl_2000's Alchemist[/B]

Yeeeeeah buddy, Artificers are awesome, and I feel like artillerist/armorer/battle smith all nail their briefs but the official alchemist just misses the mark (1 elixer per day? blahhh...) so let's see what we've got!

Spell list feels good. I could see what WOTC were going for by giving them healing spells but it felt a bit hamfisted.

Alchemical Mixes - feels very alchemisty to mix potions and hurl them in battle. A good spread of effects. Would love to see a few more battlefield controlly ones, something like a mini-Grease or Fog Cloud type ability.

Create Potions - yeeeahh, more potions! It's probably a full action to drink the potion as per DMG or wherever those roles are but is that the intention here as well? Can you bottle a damage spell and throw it at the enemy?

Quick Alchemy - suddenly 5 potions per short rest. Would feel like a great milestone for this subclass. Love the free alchemy jug too - fluffy and a great magic item that sadly sometimes get pushed back for more +1s...

Alchemy Mastery - interesting capstone. Not having to prepare the potion spell seems great and making it an action means you can rip an emergency whatever into a bottle and chug it next turn or pass it to the fighter.

Overall seems really great man. A much more active "alchemist" than the official one!

Thanks, I always liked the UA version of the alchemist better than the official anyway so I'm trying to get back there :) I really appreciate the comments, both good and bad.

I will add a few more alchemical mixes as I think of them and see if they feel balanced. In general I've focused mostly on you throw it at them and hit them and something cool happens. But there is a place for things like that, I will see what I can come up with.

For create potions I wanted to limit it to
1) Alchemist spells (so prepared, learned through a feat, or domain spells)
2) Spells that require an action or a bonus action to cast (i.e. not reaction or casting time of 1 minute).
3) Target Self without a range or touch on a creature

So, that gives me: Alter Self, Ashardalon's Stride, Blink, Blur, Cure Wounds, Darkvision, Detect Magic, Disguise Else, Enhance Ability, Expeditious Retreat, False Life, Fly, Freedom of Movement, Greater Restoration, Invisibility, Jump, Lesser Restoration, Longstrider, Protection from Energy, Protection from Poison, Revivify, See Invisibility, Skill Empowerment, Spider Climb, and Stone skin.

Overall, this is a pretty decent list that gives lots of options and buffs, especially when you can do it concentration free. However, it avoids some of the issues with casting on someone else. I do with there was a good way to also include Polymorph, Enlarge/Reduce, and Levitate, but I think the set here is good enough without it being overpowered.


For Quick Alchemy the jug is just to perfect for an alchemist and artificers get the ability to make their own magic items. It was just to fitting and fun to leave out and the overall impact on power is low whereas the fun value is very high in the hands of the right player.



EDIT: Added 3 more potions to give a little more control options. I do worry about the sneezing powder being to powerful. Removing a creatures action with your bonus action may be broken, but that is also why you have to hit with an attack and they can end it with a Con save.

Smoke Powder - You pull out and throw a vial of smoke powder at a space within 60 feet. All spaces within a 10 foot radius are obscured in dark black smoke. This area counts as Heavily Obscured. The smoke remains for 1 minute unless it is dispersed by a moderate wind or a spell.

Bottled Tar - When this vial impacts a space within 60 feet of it, it explodes into an area of sticky tar. All spaces within a 10 foot radius are covered in tar. A creature moving through the area must spend 4 feet of movement for every 1 foot it moves.

Sneezing Powder - You throw an abrasive white powder at a creature, causing it to burst around them, filling their lungs. For the next minute, the creature spends its action sneezing and coughing. At the end of each of its turns, the creature makes a constitution saving throw against your spell DC. On success, the spell ends.

[Old Harry MTX]

So, I added my entry, a refined Eldritch Knight or, as I call it, the triumph of laziness. This is because I mainly copied the features of another class of mine which, in my defense, I wrote precisely because I did not like the original Eldritch Knight at all. In any case, everything was so in tune with the contest that I couldn't help but propose it!

I also gave a quick reading of the other subclasses, and I found them all very interesting.

Create Potions
At level 5, you can use your alchemist's tools to brew magical potions. You may spend a minute...

I like expecially the feature of nickl_2000's Alchemist that allows to create potions, mainly because I created a similar one some time ago. I repost it below, maybe it can be of inspiration!

Brewing [POTION]s

At XXth level you learn to distill your magical powers into special potions called [POTION]s. You can cast a [CLASS NAME] spell that targets only one creature (← this is the same wording of the metamagic option Twinned Spell) into a vial or small bottle filled with water. The spell has no effect, other than changing the look and taste of the fluid into something of your choice (← this is just flavor) and being stored in it.
Any creature can drink the [POTION] using the same action needed to cast the spell (← or an action, if you limit this feature only to action spells...) and get its effects as if it were the target. If the spell has a range of Self but can affect another single creature (← E.G. Vampiric Touch), you choose when you create the [POTION] whether the drinker will be treated as the caster or the target. You are considered the caster in all other cases. If the spell requires Concentration, the caster must either start to keep it or let the spell vanish with no effect. The spell automatically passes any attack roll against the drinker and always uses your slot level, spell save DC, and spellcasting ability. Furthermore, if the creature is unaware of the real contents of the [POTION] or that you brewed it, it may not realize that it was affected by it or that it was your doing. The spell is stored inside the [POTION] until it is drunk, you finish a long rest, or someone empties the container. After that, the container can be reused.
You can have a number of brewed [POTION]s up to your [SPELL ABILITY SCORE] modifier. If you try to brew more [POTION]s, the spell is expended without effect.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I see a lot of interesting stuff.

I have a comment about the Champion and Assassin updates.

Champion’s improved fighting styles-Blindfighting can be “advantage on all melee attacks” by closing your eyes. Was that intended?

Assassinate’s fluff doesn’t exactly match the mechanics and is a lot more attractive as a 3 level dip besides.

[tzurk]

@Snowben, good stuff! Glad to hear the Investiture spells will come with extra punch and looking forward to seeing what you come up with for the spell lists.

@nickl, your reasoning on create potions makes sense to me. I guess these are more utility/buff spells, and the mixes are more offensive, and that strikes a neat balance. If you're worried about the sneezing powder, maybe make the save at the start of the turn so there's a chance for it to do nothing, or end automatically after a round - trading one BA for one opponent's whole action is a pretty good trade. could even be a little 10 foot square/5 ft radius circle there to potentially grab a few baddies at once.

@BerzerkerUnit, it wasn't what I had in mind when I wrote it, but I did realise pretty quickly it could be (ab)used that way. Then I thought, that's not too bad, because if your eyes are closed you're blinded and enemies will have advantage too - like Reckless Attack coming 8 levels later. But then I realised, you can just say you open your eyes back up at the end of your turn. So yeah, it will need to be changed, just struggling for inspiration on that one at the moment!

Feedback round 3

Old Harry's Eldritch Knight

Martial Magic - everything going to touch gives a cool "casting through fighting" vibe. if I pick up fireball later on, does it still have a 20 foot radius centred on my target?

Spellcasting - giving access to any spells with attack rolls make sense, but it is a bit trickily worded. Can I pick Summon Undead as long as I use the skeletal option because he makes a spell attack roll in his stat block?

Spellcasting Focus is a neat way to work around the S,V, M but not S, V or whatever the silly war caster tax thing is for gishes.

Battle Surge makes sense if youre casting a lot of fireballs (answers my first question I guess) in combat but you have hardly any spell slots at this level (or ever, really) as a 1/3 caster. As a player I'd honestly much rather have the original EK's cantrip + attack than this feature.

Eldritch Strike - This is kind of cool, similar to the original feature without requiring an additional turn of setup. Maybe slightly weaker though between its limited uses and the fact that it can only affect a single target where between all a fighter's extra attacks and action surge, the OG EK could hit half a dozen targets at a time and then blast them next turn. Is there any reason that this can't be used with a ranged weapon as well? Does the attack roll deal damage as well, or it just disadvantage on the save?

Arcane Riposte - the way I read this is it basically adds an attack roll to shield or counter spell - a cool thematic feature & a mechanical boost. Again though, does it need to be limited to a melee weapon?

Improved Eldritch Strike - I guess this answers my question about whether Eldritch Strike damages the target. Might not be enough oomph for an 18th level capstone feature, especially given the aforementioned difficulties of the redone feature - although I guess it is pretty much the same effect as the original feature of cast spell + one slash.

Overall, I think you've made some cool thematic changes to develop a more "cast spells with sword" style of gish which I love, but I'm not sure the power level is there compared to the OG EK, and the exclusion of archers feels a bit restrictive (and Arcane Archer still sucks!).

Twelvetrees' Assassin

Bonus profs - cool and thematic. I think that poisons are massively under-utilised in 5e and rogues miss out because of it. Would love to see some additional boosts to poisoned weapons - last x amount of attacks instead of one, etc, but might be too many features to squeeze in at 3.

Assassinate - thank you for taking the surprised condition out of this, and making it a sweet reliable first-turn boost. It saves all the hassle of sneaking ahead and rolling checks and planning out encounters that can slow down the game and cause party tension.

Infiltration Expertise makes sense from an RP perspective and could lead to some pretty cool shenanigans. Very DM/campaign dependent benefit; but then you get an awesome level 3 boost that will last you for a while. I guess that seems about right to me?

Exfiltration Expertise has a cool name and a great effect. Love team buffs. It might be a bit too strong in the right party - think taunt mechanics from ancestral guardians/cavaliers and/or reaction attacks from PAM or BM fighters, but really not sure how to gauge this. 60 feet is such a huge range that a melee rogue will often be enough to allow the backline wizard to get out of dodge too.

Death Strike - auto crit, so quadruple damage? Con save is a decent enough caveat for most things - see stunning strikes. Is it a decent enough caveat for 40d6 damage w/ a short sword? Not sure! It is cool though and definitely feel assassin-y...could this be maximised damage instead? 120, similar to average of quad damage, but without the potential for huge swing?

Glad to see this contest get so much interest!

[Old Harry MTX]

Thankyou for your feedbacks!

Martial Magic - everything going to touch gives a cool "casting through fighting" vibe. if I pick up fireball later on, does it still have a 20 foot radius centred on my target?

Yes! Martial Magic only affects the range of a spell, not the radius! Anyway, I added a text box with some useful indication for the DM to adjust certain spells.

Spellcasting - giving access to any spells with attack rolls make sense, but it is a bit trickily worded. Can I pick Summon Undead as long as I use the skeletal option because he makes a spell attack roll in his stat block?

Technically not, you can only pick spells that require the caster to make spell attack rolls, so nothing with full weapon attacks (E.G. booming blade) or that has attacks made by conjured creatures or objects.

Spellcasting Focus is a neat way to work around the S,V, M but not S, V or whatever the silly war caster tax thing is for gishes.

Do you believe me if I tell you that I don't understand what you mean?^^ However, the purpose of this part is to allow the use of a shield.

Battle Surge makes sense if youre casting a lot of fireballs (answers my first question I guess) in combat but you have hardly any spell slots at this level (or ever, really) as a 1/3 caster. As a player I'd honestly much rather have the original EK's cantrip + attack than this feature.

Good point. Actually, I could just solve it by adding the Eldricth Blast cantrip as a bonus spell at 3rd level: more spell attack rolls, more weapon bond's attacks! It also have the right name, and resemble what the Arcane Trcikster do with Mage Hand...

Eldritch Strike - This is kind of cool, similar to the original feature without requiring an additional turn of setup. Maybe slightly weaker though between its limited uses and the fact that it can only affect a single target where between all a fighter's extra attacks and action surge, the OG EK could hit half a dozen targets at a time and then blast them next turn. Is there any reason that this can't be used with a ranged weapon as well? Does the attack roll deal damage as well, or it just disadvantage on the save?

To be honest, my goal was to make the subclass as melee as possible, but there's really no reason not to comprehend ranged attacks as well. Actually, I could just remove the melee-only restriction even on the attacks made with Weapon Bond...

Arcane Riposte - the way I read this is it basically adds an attack roll to shield or counter spell - a cool thematic feature & a mechanical boost. Again though, does it need to be limited to a melee weapon?

Yes, for example, it not works with absorb elements. Again, i would probably remove the restriction to melee-only attacks, although the target of your counterspell will still have to be within touch range.

Improved Eldritch Strike - I guess this answers my question about whether Eldritch Strike damages the target. Might not be enough oomph for an 18th level capstone feature, especially given the aforementioned difficulties of the redone feature - although I guess it is pretty much the same effect as the original feature of cast spell + one slash.

Yes, nothing more, nothing less.

Overall, I think you've made some cool thematic changes to develop a more "cast spells with sword" style of gish which I love, but I'm not sure the power level is there compared to the OG EK, and the exclusion of archers feels a bit restrictive (and Arcane Archer still sucks!).

I think that with the addition of Eldritch Blast and the removal of the melee-only restriction I should be able to fix both the power level and the versatility. You are right, this subclass could also be a valid alternative to the Arcane Archer if I change Weapon Bond this way: "While wielding a bonded weapon, you can replace any spell attack roll with a weapon attack roll, if the target is within range of both the original spell and the weapon".

The fact that Eldricth Blast is not in the wizard's spell list makes me a bit sick, but I've seen worse ^^

[Twelvetrees]

A couple reviews!

Spoiler: Champion Fighter, Revised

Show

Improved Critical
No comments here, this is the same.

Signature Weapon
I feel like it might be more straightforward to say “you can choose one weapon, or unarmed strikes, to be your signature weapon” instead of having to have an extra line explaining what you can or can’t have in your hand. Admittedly, this might open up more synergy with monk multiclassing, but I don’t know if that would be such a bad thing, either.

• Brutish Weapon
  I’m a fan. Would it make sense to have the damage type match that of the weapon? It seems a little strange to have a bow do bludgeoning damage on a miss.
  
• Defensive Weapon
  At 3rd and 4th level, this is by far the best option, simply because you only have one attack and very little use for a bonus action. It gets less and less attractive the higher in level you go, because of how many more attacks you miss out on making. Unfortunately, I don’t have a good solution coming immediately to mind.
  
• Distracting Weapon
  This is probably the most powerful of these options. It’s a better version of the Battle Master’s Commander’s Strike, has unlimited uses, and is good for the exact same reason Commander’s Strike is good (off-turn rogue sneak attack, another opportunity for a paladin to smite, etc). It’s a little swingier because you have to hit for it to trigger, but it will get more reliable as you get more attacks.
  Maybe limiting this in some way could help? Maybe you have to forgo an attack to use it or the creature has resistance against your ally’s attack? Another option could be to switch out the benefit to something like allowing you to Help as a bonus action.
  
• Reliable Weapon
  I like this one.
  
• Sweeping Attack
  This is also rather strong. Like the Battle Master maneuver of the same name, I’d suggest limiting it to one creature next to the original target. Was this intended to apply with ranged weapons as well? It does right now.
  
• True Weapon
  I’m not sure how to feel about this one. On the one hand, I really like its simplicity and straightforwardness. On the other hand, this stacks really well with the Archery Fighting Style and Sharpshooter.

Remarkable Athlete
I think I prefer the original half proficiency modifier version to rolling a d4. Easier to remember and calculate.
I love your changes to the latter half of this feature.

Fighting Style Expert

• Archery
  This stacks really well with crits, especially if you have a way to add more dice to your damage. I’m not sure it’ll break anything, but it’s something to be aware of.
  
• Blind Fighting
  This encourages voluntarily blinding your character, which could lead to some cool imagery of a blindfolded fighter whirling through groups of foes, but nearly always-on advantage is too strong in comparison to the other options offered.
  
• Defense
  I like that this leans into the passive features of the Champion, but I’m not sure it’s good enough in comparison to many of the other options.
  
• Dueling
  I like it.
  
• Great Weapon Fighting
  How does this interact with the fighting style? Do you have to choose one or the other? Do they stack?
  
• Interception
  This expands on the fighting style well, but be aware that initiative order will determine how useful it is. There’s going to be a world of difference between using this reaction on the turn after yours versus the turn right before yours.
  
• Protection
  This seems decent.
  
• Superior Technique
  Yeah, this is good.
  
• Thrown Weapon Fighting
  This feels like something that would have been good to have when the Signature Weapon ability was first attained. Now that I think about it, why not have Signature weapon apply to a specific kind of weapon instead of a particular one? The doubling of ranges doesn’t seem that impactful.
  
• Two Weapon Fighting
  Ooh, this makes two-weapon fighting attractive. This is one of the stronger options, but I think that’s fine in this case because it’s specific to a fighting style that hasn’t gotten a lot of love in 5e.
  
• Unarmed Fighting
  Not a bad option at all for someone focused on grappling. I like that it encourages the rest of your party to join in an pummel them with unarmed strikes.

Superior Critical
Nothing to say here, this hasn’t changed.

Force of Will
Yep, this is a sensible change.

Survivor
No different.


Overall Impression
This appears to be a fix to the Champion, because all the changes are new features added on top of the standard features. Let me know if that’s a mistaken assumption.
The passive, always on aspects of your additions interact well with the standard features of the Champion and further its simple-to-play design. I’m more leery of the plethora of options offered by Signature Weapon and Fighting Style Expert because they add to the complexity of character play, both in leveling up and in decision-making at the table. Not by a lot, admittedly, but I’ve certainly played with folks who would find it to be too much. I’d lean more towards having more passive options than you’ve got right now. True Weapon and Brutish Weapon would be good examples of what to aim for, in my opinion.

Spoiler: Path of the Berserker Revised

Show

Goals
I appreciate this section. It makes it really easy to see what you’re trying to do here.

Wakened Fury
More rages/frenzies. Okay, I can get behind that. Definitely starts to have an impact on longer adventuring days, but doesn’t do much until then.

Frenzy
Ohhhh, this is why Wakened Fury matters. This seems underpowered, especially when comparing with a Zealot’s Divine Fury or a Paladin’s Divine Smite. Its damage has a bigger spike, but its resource pool is much more limited.
Being able to use more rages is an intriguing mechanic, but I fear it’ll end up hurting a barbarian player more if they blow through all their rages in a single fight than a paladin doing the same thing with smites. So many of a barbarian’s features are based around being in a rage that they’re really quite lackluster if they’re tapped.
Is there another resource pool this ability could be tied to? Hit Dice or something? This feature fits really well with your stated design goals, but spending rages to power it feels like too high a cost.

Mindless Rage
No changes I can see here.

Indomitable
Yes. Yes, please, this is cool. My only complaint is that this uses the exact same name as the fighter feature.

Intimidation Stance
Interesting method of generating the save DC. I actually prefer Intimidating Presence to this, if only because it isn’t tied to rage and allows players to embody the stereotypical scary barbarian in situations outside of fights.

Retaliation
Being able to use Intimidation Stance with this absolutely rocks. Having to use Frenzy instead of being able to make a normal attack doesn’t – in fact, it exacerbates the problem of how quickly you can burn through rages. Once you’re out, this feature does nothing, which feels bad.


Overall Impression
I really wish I was more enthusiastic about this, but consuming rages to power your primary feature hurts, especially since having no rages left turns off every other feature from this subclass. I’d struggle to decide between playing this version of the Berserker and the standard version, given the choice.

Assassinate’s fluff doesn’t exactly match the mechanics and is a lot more attractive as a 3 level dip besides.

Fluff is easy enough to fix. I was more concerned with making the base feature usable than changing the fluff. Would “you are at you deadliest in the first few moments of a fight” work better?

Can you explain why my change makes Assassin a lot more attractive as a 3 level dip?

Twelvetrees' Assassin

Bonus profs - cool and thematic. I think that poisons are massively under-utilised in 5e and rogues miss out because of it. Would love to see some additional boosts to poisoned weapons - last x amount of attacks instead of one, etc, but might be too many features to squeeze in at 3.

I can't take any credit here, this feature is exactly the same as the base subclass.

Assassinate - thank you for taking the surprised condition out of this, and making it a sweet reliable first-turn boost. It saves all the hassle of sneaking ahead and rolling checks and planning out encounters that can slow down the game and cause party tension.

Woo! Working as intended!

Infiltration Expertise makes sense from an RP perspective and could lead to some pretty cool shenanigans. Very DM/campaign dependent benefit; but then you get an awesome level 3 boost that will last you for a while. I guess that seems about right to me?

Excellent.

Exfiltration Expertise has a cool name and a great effect. Love team buffs. It might be a bit too strong in the right party - think taunt mechanics from ancestral guardians/cavaliers and/or reaction attacks from PAM or BM fighters, but really not sure how to gauge this. 60 feet is such a huge range that a melee rogue will often be enough to allow the backline wizard to get out of dodge too.

The range on this feature is what I was most unsure about. My intention with this ability was to enable a party to flee or reposition. Reducing the range or imposing a limit on the number of times this can be used are both modifications I can make if this comes across as too strong. I'm not sure it is.

The closest comparison is a Glamour Bard's Mantle of Inspiration, which comes online ten levels earlier and gives temporary hit points to boot.

Death Strike - auto crit, so quadruple damage? Con save is a decent enough caveat for most things - see stunning strikes. Is it a decent enough caveat for 40d6 damage w/ a short sword? Not sure! It is cool though and definitely feel assassin-y...could this be maximised damage instead? 120, similar to average of quad damage, but without the potential for huge swing?

I didn't change this ability much, just unhooked it from the surprised condition like I did with Assassinate. I'm not worried about damage swings too much. 20d6 will trend heavily towards average. Doubling that will add a little swing, but not enough that I think it'll matter.


Thanks for the feedback!