D&D Subclass Contest Chat Thread 2: Joke Entries Win with Alarming Frequency

[sengmeng]

My concern would be that Monk is already MAD and then this subclass requires grapples and/or shoves to function appropriately, which means you need str as well. If this is meant to be a strength-instead-of-dex monk, it's going to need the damage resistance feature to come earlier to compensate for the lost AC.

It's not supposed to be strength-instead-of-dex, but more like if-you-have-room-in-your-build-to-put-a-12-in-strength-then-do-that. The way "athlete" is worded is that if you're also proficient, you add the bonus to your proficiency bonus, and if you snagged expertise somehow, you'll actually add triple your proficiency bonus. So it was meant to make strength nice if you can get it, but not absolutely necessary.

[Psyche]

Would a class about the moon fit the theme?

[animorte]

Would a class about the moon fit the theme?

I love the moon so I want to see what you have anyway.

Maybe if it's something about how the phases can greatly increase the tide. The waxing and waning of the moon equally control the flow of blood in our veins and raises the pinnacle of what we're capable of in study of this specific subclass. The power in my blood overflows and I must release the magic within or else I might implode. It makes me think about Avatar: The Last Airbender and how all Waterbenders are significantly empowered by the full moon.

Or perhaps the rising and setting of the moon. Anything to do with it being dark automatically empowers your gifts and when it sets to bring about a new day (so maybe the end of a long rest), you are provided some kind of protection in order to survive until the next rotation (you know, until the next night). Or include the sun and moon altogether, where they each provide different abilities.

[Notafish]

The Heavy is ready for critique! (note: overthought it and made some edits this afternoon after I posted this. 2nd note: done editing for real this time)

One thing I'm not sure about is whether there are fixed rules for oversized weapons in any of the newer books or published adventures, or if big weapon stats are confined to monster stat blocks.

I enjoyed writing this subclass because I thought about a lot of different potential character concepts while drafting. My initial inspirations were video game tanks and JRPG protagonists, but along the way I also realized that this could also be a good frame for someone who wants to be a halfling with a claymore or a longbow/daikyu specialist (of any size).

[Old Harry MTX]

Ok, guys, the Kaiju Tamer has reached the alpha stage!

It is not a particularly original subclass, but I have tried to give it a distinctive flavor, and to combine it with some gameplay options that I hope you'll find interesting.

I also tried to work on the action economy, hoping to have found a good compromise. I also add several NOTEs to explains some design choices.

In general, at the moment it is a rather beefy subclass, both in terms of the theme of the contest, and the level of power, which certainly stands on the higher tiers.

Feel free to peach!

(Since the ranger already has the Beastmaster, I have also written a variant as a fighter subclass which may be more original, although I like it less. Based on your feedback I will choose which one to bring until the end of the contest.)

[Damon_Tor]

Ok, guys, the Kaiju Tamer has reached the alpha stage!

It is not a particularly original subclass, but I have tried to give it a distinctive flavor, and to combine it with some gameplay options that I hope you'll find interesting.

I also tried to work on the action economy, hoping to have found a good compromise. I also add several NOTEs to explains some design choices.

In general, at the moment it is a rather beefy subclass, both in terms of the theme of the contest, and the level of power, which certainly stands on the higher tiers.

Feel free to peach!

(Since the ranger already has the Beastmaster, I have also written a variant as a fighter subclass which may be more original, although I like it less. Based on your feedback I will choose which one to bring until the end of the contest.)

I like it.

The CR is very high: the permanent spell-slot allocation as a balance point is a great solution (similar to the "investiture" I used in my wizard subclass) but I'm not sure it goes far enough. Giving a PC an all-day summon stronger than a creature a Moon Druid can turn into is probably going too far. I think if you start with a CR of 1/4 the ranger's level then allow for an upgrade by +1 CR or so when you add the 11th level bonus features it should work okay. If your target is CR 6 at 20th level you match the moon druid's peak without going past it. And you can increase a creature's SIZE without touching their CR as long as nothing changes but the amount of space they take up and maybe their reach.

I'm not sure the bonus spells do much for you. You could drop the nautical flavor entirely and allow the player to decide if their kaiju comes from the sea, the hollow earth, a hidden island, outer space, a volcano, or whatever else.

The ranger is the better choice compared to the fighter. If you slightly retooled this as a more generalized beastmaster rework I think it would probably work great.

[animorte]

I have expanded the subclass collection from my recent homebrew base class entry, The Cleaner.
It desperately needs its own update, but that's a different topic for a different day.

If you happened to be a cleaner, but wanted to step away from the lower income, less exciting careers, I've got the solution for you. With the Field Technician, you learn how to repair and operate some big equipment. It can also be programmed to move and attack of its own accord, not to mention some awesome area effects that will change the battlefield!

---

Anyway, my subclass is ready to be critiqued folks (definitely needs it )! I greatly appreciate it ahead of time and I will have my reviews prepared within the next few days.

Just to be clear, it's this one: Field Technician.

[Old Harry MTX]

Thankyou for your feedback!

The CR is very high: the permanent spell-slot allocation as a balance point is a great solution (similar to the "investiture" I used in my wizard subclass) but I'm not sure it goes far enough. Giving a PC an all-day summon stronger than a creature a Moon Druid can turn into is probably going too far. I think if you start with a CR of 1/4 the ranger's level then allow for an upgrade by +1 CR or so when you add the 11th level bonus features it should work okay. If your target is CR 6 at 20th level you match the moon druid's peak without going past it.

Yes, the CR is the thing concerns me the most. I decided to go up to CR 8 because the polymorph spell allows an 8th level character to transform into a CR 8 tyrannosaurus (the beast with the highest CR in the PHB), so I assumed that a level 20 character could somehow summon a creature of equal power, not to mention that I consider the ability to summon a tyrannosaurus a mandatory target for a class called "Kaiju Tamer". Also, a higher CR would also add more room to apply the effects of the "Release the Kraken Cryptid" feature.

But yes, as it is now, this subclass is way too strong when compared to a Moon Druid (not to mention when compared to a Beastmaster Ranger). However I want to try other solutions before (probably inevitably) reducing the CR (E.G. removing or halving the proficiency bonus to AC, working on a different action economy, adding a spell slots cost to special actions...).

And you can increase a creature's SIZE without touching their CR as long as nothing changes but the amount of space they take up and maybe their reach.

This is an interesting solution, but it would almost be just flavor.

I'm not sure the bonus spells do much for you. You could drop the nautical flavor entirely and allow the player to decide if their kaiju comes from the sea, the hollow earth, a hidden island, outer space, a volcano, or whatever else.

I will definitely consider this, even if I find this flavor very thematic, since I consider mythological monsters such as krakens, scyllas, charybdis, hydras, aspidochelones or leviathans as proto-kaiju. XD

However, it would be interesting to create different themes, finding for each a pro and a con, such as the amphibious trait and the low walking speed of the maritime one.

The ranger is the better choice compared to the fighter. If you slightly retooled this as a more generalized beastmaster rework I think it would probably work great.

I'll do my best!

[Notafish]

As with the base Cleaner class, animorte, I am enjoying the ideas that pop into my head with the Field Technician. I really like the programmable effects idea with the P.I.T. - this fits in well with the idea of a technician tinkering with their vehicle or adding a different attachment to their tractor. The 10th and 14th-level features are nice upgrades to the focus of the class, too.

I am confused by the idea of the P.I.T. being an independently mobile being right from the start, mostly because I don't know what a P.I.T. is in my game's universe. I don't have an issue with it - it just is a level of worldbuilding in the class that I wasn't prepared for, as the class description put me in mind of a vehicle user like a groundskeeper or construction worker, rather than a handiman with a semi-independent automaton. Similarly, the 6th-level Observation feature makes me wonder why the technician needs remote sensing capabilities in their line of work.

Also, while I enjoy the theming of the Safety First feature, I do wonder if the AC bonus might be better folded into the bonus proficiencies as proficiency with either medium or heavy armor.

[animorte]

As with the base Cleaner class, animorte, I am enjoying the ideas that pop into my head with the Field Technician. I really like the programmable effects idea with the P.I.T. - this fits in well with the idea of a technician tinkering with their vehicle or adding a different attachment to their tractor. The 10th and 14th-level features are nice upgrades to the focus of the class, too.

I appreciate the kind words. It's always a blessing to know that my concepts have been a form of inspiration to somebody. I was proud of this concept and I see that I conveyed it well enough.

I am confused by the idea of the P.I.T. being an independently mobile being right from the start, mostly because I don't know what a P.I.T. is in my game's universe. I don't have an issue with it - it just is a level of worldbuilding in the class that I wasn't prepared for, as the class description put me in mind of a vehicle user like a groundskeeper or construction worker, rather than a handiman with a semi-independent automaton. Similarly, the 6th-level Observation feature makes me wonder why the technician needs remote sensing capabilities in their line of work.

I'm actually quite glad you mentioned this. I was struggling with the idea of why and how the P.I.T. is able to function of its own accord. At some point I decided that in order for it to be worthy of a stat block, it would likely need some form of autonomous capability. I feel like it very clearly stands as a middle ground between the Artillerist and the Battle Smith, especially as I pulled from both subclasses as well as Beast Master, Echo Knight, Pact of the Chain, and the find familiar spell.

I will work on the flavor text with the hope of validating its purpose and establishing a legitimate place in your average adventuring world.

Also, while I enjoy the theming of the Safety First feature, I do wonder if the AC bonus might be better folded into the bonus proficiencies as proficiency with either medium or heavy armor.

I debated this as well, but honestly I tried to get fancy and creative. To be fair, there's really no reason to invent a round-about method for ultimately the same effect as a pre-existing format. Certainly going to update. Thanks a lot!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Legend Stalker Rogue is up.

I have wanted to experiment with the “sacrifice sneak damage for conditions” for a while. I had a bad luck archetype that could forego rolling their sneak dice as damage to leave them on a creature as a penalty, but it was either too weak or too strong and I couldn’t tune it to where I wanted it.

With this, I assume a roll of 3 per die, and multiply that by half the level I want the effect to be a staple. But this means you can occasionally pull off much harsher crippling strikes at lower levels.

Do I think the subclass could work better narratively as “an interrogator” if you replace the siege weapons at 6th with a feature to make Iron Bands that grants you advantage on checks against Restrained creatures? Yes, but that is awfully dark compared to “Godzilla Hunter.”

[animorte]

I just realized the link in the the submission thread does not work in leading to this chat thread.

This one should work: Subclass Contest Discussion Thread

[animorte]

And my analysis for these wonderful entries is in!

Spoiler: Kaiju Trainer

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I appreciate how you maintain the aquatic theme very well as this subclass develops through leveling.

You are able to return your beastie to life with a spell slot. Perhaps provide an additional benefit to using higher level spell slots. Maybe HP = level of spell slot x Ranger level.

I would also make it clear that the maximum CR of your beastie cannot exceed the CR listed in your table, including the additional traits. I like these traits and that might keep it balanced, I think.

Spoiler: Field Technician

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You...

You think you're real clever, stealing my idea.

Let's take this outside.

Spoiler: The Heavy

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I think this is a nicely balanced subclass that achieves the goal without being complex. Step aside Champion!

I like that it continues to get more survivable in creative ways.

One note I have is about Steady. I like what it does, but needing Concentration feels kind of like a trap. I know you'll have a high Con with this subclass, but being in the fray does not fare well for being able to maintain this buff. I would instead suggest the loss of your reaction until the start of your next turn. In some way this represents the idea that you're physically steadying yourself (sort of digging your feet in and taking a stance) in order to improve your offense AND defense (yes, I think including a small bonus to AC or something of this nature would be fair).

Spoiler: School of Lifeshaping

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Your references are very nicely incorporated, very amusing indeed! This immediately made me think of the following:



Defensive Creation is valuable and STRONK, but your monstrosity technically can't get between you and a melee assailant, so it's kinda fine.

Investing is very unique and I would like to see something like this incorporated into published material. At first I thought it was completely broken (not requiring concentration and immediate permanency), but not being able to regain that spell slot back was an excellent idea for balance.

However, reading through again revealed that there is no limit to how many spells you can have invested in your Monstrosity. That is terrifying. I'm looking at a few things like gift of alacrity, enlarge, and dragon's breath. All of them are balanced by their duration. But this is permanent, and that's only 4 slots, none above 2nd-level. Not to mention offspring getting ALL the benefits. Can we have a limit?

Spoiler: Path of the Tarrasque

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Basically condensing the Tarrasque statblock into a Barbarian subclass is a neat idea. You've done a good job at balancing it out, but it might be a bit weak.

I think adding Blindsight while raging right from level 3 would work just fine. Each of these early bonuses are situational enough that it certainly won't break anything.

Intimidating Presence is sweet, but needing to use your action every turn kind of takes you out of the fight. You could fear one bad guy and keep throwing down with others if you move the additional turns to bonus action for extension instead.

Also, maybe increase reach +5 feet to accompany the increased size in your capstone.

Spoiler: School of Topology

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Overflow is a really cool concept that is a sort of parallel to meta-magic, but still entirely different. A nice job at remembering to consistently account for Overflow and Arcane Expansion working only with each other and nothing else, great balance awareness. I don't know that providing advantage to the saving throws is necessary though.

It took a bit of re-reading, but that capstone is nuts. I love it. It reminded me of the wizard's fire from The Sword of Truth series in which a wizard would have no other choice but to kamikaze into a maximized explosion. My only concern with it is how rarely it will likely be relevant, seeing as conserving spell slots for where-needed-most can often be an active concern.

Spoiler: Legend Stalker

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I absolutely love being able to trade your bonus to hit and damage for increasing the DC of Crippling Strike. This does an excellent job of focusing for the sake of your effect. Though I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are. Is that how much damage is being reduced? It gets to be an awful lot for some effects, especially considering the static amount that you may not even roll to begin with.

Instead of reducing the Sneak Attack damage by numbers, maybe you can instead remove a certain number of damage die:

• Tier one effects remove 1 damage die (1d6).
• Tier two effects remove 2 damage die (2d6).
• Tier three effects remove 3 damage die (3d6).
• Tier four effects remove 4 damage die (4d6).

Effectively very similar numbers. Not that you need to do it this way, it just looks a lot more clear to me.

The Arbalest is really cool, and being able to accept a level of exhaustion to force a fail is just fantastic.

Spoiler: Way of the Sumo

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This is really funny to me, imagining a sumo wrestler sprinting faster than anybody else you know. But then it uses that speed to your advantage by trading off for different effects. Nicely done.

I appreciate how accurate the abilities feel for your theme and it looks nicely balanced, but I would make it a point to throw in some flavor text. Your subclass wants to tell me a story.

Spoiler: Cosmic Lord

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You and your poetry. I hope you keep implementing that in your concepts. I also enjoy writing poems and you've inspired me to maybe include some of that in the future.

I actually really like Shield of Night, coming across as the moon descending its protective aura of light around you. With the other features so far, it looks like a very survivable Sorcerer subclass. Looking forward to the rest.

I hope everybody enjoys this as much as I do.

[Psyche]

I am asking for an extension

[MutantDragon]

Spoiler: Path of the Tarrasque

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Basically condensing the Tarrasque statblock into a Barbarian subclass is a neat idea. You've done a good job at balancing it out, but it might be a bit weak.

I think adding Blindsight while raging right from level 3 would work just fine. Each of these early bonuses are situational enough that it certainly won't break anything.

Intimidating Presence is sweet, but needing to use your action every turn kind of takes you out of the fight. You could fear one bad guy and keep throwing down with others if you move the additional turns to bonus action for extension instead.

Also, maybe increase reach +5 feet to accompany the increased size in your capstone.

Thanks for the ideas. The Intimidating presence I just ripped straight from Berserker, but you are right that it could use some buffing. Taking my design cues from a subclass tat gives you exhaustion for doing the same thing as a 1st level war cleric probably wasn't the best idea. I do like the other ideas you gave me, too. I'll have to do some minor tweaking, and I think I'm going to incorporate some of this in there. Thanks.

[Old Harry MTX]

Thankyou for your feedback! I also realized that we are very close to the end of the contest, I hope to be able to make the last fixes and take a look at the other entries as well.

I appreciate how you maintain the aquatic theme very well as this subclass develops through leveling.

Thankyou so much! In the end I decided to keep it, it adds some boundaries but i like it ^^

You are able to return your beastie to life with a spell slot. Perhaps provide an additional benefit to using higher level spell slots. Maybe HP = level of spell slot x Ranger level.

It makes perfectly sense.

I would also make it clear that the maximum CR of your beastie cannot exceed the CR listed in your table, including the additional traits. I like these traits and that might keep it balanced, I think.

Yes, maybe it's not clear enough.

[BerzerkerUnit]

And my analysis for these wonderful entries is in!

Spoiler: Legend Stalker

Show

I absolutely love being able to trade your bonus to hit and damage for increasing the DC of Crippling Strike. This does an excellent job of focusing for the sake of your effect. Though I'm not exactly sure what the numbers are. Is that how much damage is being reduced? It gets to be an awful lot for some effects, especially considering the static amount that you may not even roll to begin with.

Instead of reducing the Sneak Attack damage by numbers, maybe you can instead remove a certain number of damage die:

• Tier one effects remove 1 damage die (1d6).
• Tier two effects remove 2 damage die (2d6).
• Tier three effects remove 3 damage die (3d6).
• Tier four effects remove 4 damage die (4d6).

Effectively very similar numbers. Not that you need to do it this way, it just looks a lot more clear to me.

The Arbalest is really cool, and being able to accept a level of exhaustion to force a fail is just fantastic.

I hope everybody enjoys this as much as I do.

I think we do!

Thank you so much for your feedback! I had toyed with the idea of doing -X dice, but that has a couple of issues. I'll try and keep the explanation tight:
Rogue combat is about rolling a handful of dice. By level 5 if you hit (likely in most cases) you're rolling 4 dice, and it only goes up from there. That's fun! Reducing the number of the dice (while definitely an elegant solution) is fundamentally less of that fun.

While I don't want to bog combat down, gods know rogues are one of the breeziest classes in that respect, I want some tactical choices. Damage solves problems but this way the rogue gets to roll lots of dice and if the dice go their way, they might be able to pull a high level nerf out. But they are gambling that damage to do so. Risk v reward will vary by person. Do you like to get the killing blow, or would you have more fun knocking it prone so the barbarian can behead it?

To get those costs I assumed 3 was the average roll on a d6 SA die. I multiplied by the # of dice a rogue would have at the level I think the option is okay for use every turn (when accounting for the saves required which were all Con or Str, typically the 2 best for enemies).

[animorte]

To get those costs I assumed 3 was the average roll on a d6 SA die. I multiplied by the # of dice a rogue would have at the level I think the option is okay for use every turn

Interesting thought process. I can dig it. (Though I think it’s technically 3.5 average. Which is not easier to calculate, so… eh.)

So then, might it be worth mentioning a certain level prerequisite for some of those abilities? Or alternatively (keeping it precisely the way it is), the rare chance a 7th level Rogue rolls max damage SA (4d6 = 24), they automatically have the chance to Paralyze. (It merely gets easier to hit with higher levels.)

Yeah, I like that. Sick. Keep it.

Thanks for the explanation!

[Ilerien]

I am asking for an extension

I second this motion. I have an unusual idea, just haven't had time to implement it yet.

[animorte]

1.

I am asking for an extension

2.(?)

Thankyou for your feedback! I also realized that we are very close to the end of the contest, I hope to be able to make the last fixes and take a look at the other entries as well.

3.

I second this motion. I have an unusual idea, just haven't had time to implement it yet.

Looks like an extension to me

[Damon_Tor]

Your references are very nicely incorporated, very amusing indeed! This immediately made me think of the following:



Defensive Creation is valuable and STRONK, but your monstrosity technically can't get between you and a melee assailant, so it's kinda fine.

Investing is very unique and I would like to see something like this incorporated into published material. At first I thought it was completely broken (not requiring concentration and immediate permanency), but not being able to regain that spell slot back was an excellent idea for balance.

However, reading through again revealed that there is no limit to how many spells you can have invested in your Monstrosity. That is terrifying. I'm looking at a few things like gift of alacrity, enlarge, and dragon's breath. All of them are balanced by their duration. But this is permanent, and that's only 4 slots, none above 2nd-level. Not to mention offspring getting ALL the benefits. Can we have a limit?

A limit is probably a good idea in retrospect. My inclination would be to limit the total spell slot levels rather than just the number of spells, so that Longstrider doesn't cost the same as Haste. A note though, gift of alacrity wouldn't actually do anything for the monster under normal circumstances, because it uses your initiative.

[animorte]

A limit is probably a good idea in retrospect. My inclination would be to limit the total spell slot levels rather than just the number of spells, so that Longstrider doesn't cost the same as Haste. A note though, gift of alacrity wouldn't actually do anything for the monster under normal circumstances, because it uses your initiative.

Ah yeah that’s right. Total spell levels and different costs is a great idea, I think.

[Damon_Tor]

Ah yeah that’s right. Total spell levels and different costs is a great idea, I think.

Went ahead and made that change. The limit is equal to your wizard level, so at level 6 you could invest a first level spell, a second level spell, and a third level spell and be at your limit, but at 12th level you'd have twice as many.

Also, this limit is on the total slots you can invest across all purposes, including the slots you need to invest to create the offspring.

[Notafish]

Spoiler: The Heavy

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I think this is a nicely balanced subclass that achieves the goal without being complex. Step aside Champion!

I like that it continues to get more survivable in creative ways.

One note I have is about Steady. I like what it does, but needing Concentration feels kind of like a trap. I know you'll have a high Con with this subclass, but being in the fray does not fare well for being able to maintain this buff. I would instead suggest the loss of your reaction until the start of your next turn. In some way this represents the idea that you're physically steadying yourself (sort of digging your feet in and taking a stance) in order to improve your offense AND defense (yes, I think including a small bonus to AC or something of this nature would be fair).

Thanks for the review! Regarding Steady, I actually don't want to make it defensive, both because I have trouble imagining how one would go about focusing on both attack and defense with an unwieldy weapon and because one of my goals with the subclass was to make it an attractive target for enemy attacks that might otherwise be aimed at squishier partymembers without resorting to spell-like effects like compelled duel. The Heavy in my mind, is better as a team player (tanking damage and forcing engagements) rather than a solo threat (although things like Second Wind ought to give them a fair amount of self-sustain).

Concentration might be a step too far, admittedly. Especially since it really only comes into play for allowing reaction attacks.

[animorte]

Thanks for the review! Regarding Steady, I actually don't want to make it defensive, both because I have trouble imagining how one would go about focusing on both attack and defense with an unwieldy weapon and because one of my goals with the subclass was to make it an attractive target for enemy attacks that might otherwise be aimed at squishier partymembers without resorting to spell-like effects like compelled duel. The Heavy in my mind, is better as a team player (tanking damage and forcing engagements) rather than a solo threat (although things like Second Wind ought to give them a fair amount of self-sustain).

Concentration might be a step too far, admittedly. Especially since it really only comes into play for allowing reaction attacks.

That’s fair and I’m fully on board with what you’ve said, especially considering (I mentioned myself) that The Heavy is quite survivable already.

[Old Harry MTX]

Sorry but so the contest has been extended? Until?

[animorte]

Sorry but so the contest has been extended? Until?

It looks like the contest deadline has been extended until November 2nd.

[animorte]

Hey everybody! Here’s the voting thread so we can all get the votes in!

[Old Harry MTX]

Oh no! It is already the second "i read it in a book once" contest in which I want to make a spiderman-inspired subclass and I am anticipated by someone else! XD

[BerzerkerUnit]

Oh no! It is already the second "i read it in a book once" contest in which I want to make a spiderman-inspired subclass and I am anticipated by someone else! XD

Do it! Dueling Spider-Mans!