D&D Subclass Contest Chat Thread 2: Joke Entries Win with Alarming Frequency

[animorte]

Oh no! It is already the second "i read it in a book once" contest in which I want to make a spiderman-inspired subclass and I am anticipated by someone else! XD

Do it! Dueling Spider-Mans!

I mean, the multiverse exists for a reason!

[MutantDragon]

...Is it weird I was also considering a Spider-Man subclass? Because that seems weird. Is it weird?

[animorte]

I think i can make it fun and interesting, and it fills a needed niche.

To be fair, literally everything I have ever seen you make is fun, interesting, and fills a needed niche.

[BerzerkerUnit]

@MutantDragon

I saw the Klyntar Barbarian, not bad at all.

I think the 14th level feature should be something a little more dramatic and active, maybe some kind of 10ft Restraining Aura while raging as the symbiote goes wild.

You may also want to clarify whether you need to concentrate on Web while raging. As is you might be able to cast it multiple times and have huge zones of web up.

[MutantDragon]

@MutantDragon

I saw the Klyntar Barbarian, not bad at all.

I think the 14th level feature should be something a little more dramatic and active, maybe some kind of 10ft Restraining Aura while raging as the symbiote goes wild.

You may also want to clarify whether you need to concentrate on Web while raging. As is you might be able to cast it multiple times and have huge zones of web up.

Thanks. I'll definitely take these ideas into consideration. I appreciate it and wish you luck in the contest.

[MutantDragon]

@BerzerkerUnit

I've taken another look at the Webslinging Wall-Crawler and I have some thoughts.

• On the web slinging ability, I might consider allowing a saving throw. I would also like to see some specification on what "to your hand" means. Are they now held in your hand? Just within melee range? Etc. Also, are you physically grappling or are you grappling via webs? Some additional clarification on this would work wonders.

• On Superior Spider Gifts, I'd like to see more done with the Strength boost. Specifically, since Rogues don't do much with Strength, allowing them to use Dexterity for certain Strength things could work. That or a flat bonus to Strength. Essentially just anything to make them truly feel like they have superhuman strength. I'm also not a huge fan of features that reference another class's features, especially when the ones being referenced aren't in the core rules. A cleaner way of handling it might be to just give them blindsight and specify that it stacks with pre-existing blindsight. The part about not being able to be surprised overlaps a bit with the Alert feat, but I'm not too worried about that. Maybe give them an extra benefit if they already can't be surprised, like adding their proficiency bonus to initiative?

Other than that, I really like the way you've implemented everything, and I like the direction you're going on those things too. You've really gotten some interesting ideas and unique takes I would never have thought of. Good luck on the contest.

[Damon_Tor]

I think what's fun about barbarian subclasses is how the daily resource expense of the rage use lets you push the power level of the features. I understand the impulse to give barbarians non-rage features, but if that happens at the expense of the barbarian's unique design space I think that's a mistake. At a certain point you're better off making a fighter subclass instead if rage doesn't really factor into your design.

[MutantDragon]

I think what's fun about barbarian subclasses is how the daily resource expense of the rage use lets you push the power level of the features. I understand the impulse to give barbarians non-rage features, but if that happens at the expense of the barbarian's unique design space I think that's a mistake. At a certain point you're better off making a fighter subclass instead if rage doesn't really factor into your design.

Definitely true. On the other hand, balancing that against options that work regardless of current rage status helps keep things engaging throughout play and is somewhat necessary for certain concepts. I'm still tweaking it, so I might make my subclass a bit more rage centric. It is certainly something worth thinking about. Thanks!

[BerzerkerUnit]

Thanks. I'll definitely take these ideas into consideration. I appreciate it and wish you luck in the contest.

Thanks, you too!

One more, the bit about being able to surprise creatures, I think a more broadly applicable way to do it might be "When you take the Hide action you can be hidden even from creatures with special senses such as blindsight and tremorsense."

I think that way you still need cover or concealment, but a creature needs a direct LOS to spot you. I think the number of creatures that can't be surprised can be counted on one hand, while the number of creeps with those two senses that make it almost impossible to hide from them are manifold.

Good luck again!

[BerzerkerUnit]

@BerzerkerUnit

I've taken another look at the Webslinging Wall-Crawler and I have some thoughts.

• On the web slinging ability, I might consider allowing a saving throw. I would also like to see some specification on what "to your hand" means. Are they now held in your hand? Just within melee range? Etc. Also, are you physically grappling or are you grappling via webs? Some additional clarification on this would work wonders.

• On Superior Spider Gifts, I'd like to see more done with the Strength boost. Specifically, since Rogues don't do much with Strength, allowing them to use Dexterity for certain Strength things could work. That or a flat bonus to Strength. Essentially just anything to make them truly feel like they have superhuman strength. I'm also not a huge fan of features that reference another class's features, especially when the ones being referenced aren't in the core rules. A cleaner way of handling it might be to just give them blindsight and specify that it stacks with pre-existing blindsight. The part about not being able to be surprised overlaps a bit with the Alert feat, but I'm not too worried about that. Maybe give them an extra benefit if they already can't be surprised, like adding their proficiency bonus to initiative?

Other than that, I really like the way you've implemented everything, and I like the direction you're going on those things too. You've really gotten some interesting ideas and unique takes I would never have thought of. Good luck on the contest.

Thank you so much for the feedback!

For the Webslinging, it's definitely intended to be a 30ft pull that ends the target grappled. I thought I'd written it as a pretty tight if/then for when they're pulled to your hand they're grappled. As for "pulling something to your hand" I think the most reasonable conclusion for ruling it would be "if the hand is free, then you're holding the object, if the hand is full, it then ends the movement in the nearest space." I can't think of too many interpretations that go beyond that without being fairly malicious in their intent. But I'll give it another look.

Edits: I tightened up the language for Web-Sling to require a free hand which I feel clarifies intent without narrowing application overmuch.

I'm keeping blindfighting explicitly because it's a readily understood existing rule (the same reason I made it "cast Web" instead of creating a nearly identical weblike application of Web-Slinging. I can choose elegance when it suits).

Any other bonus to Superior Spider Strength would just feel like gilding a lily as this level's feature is already a two-fer that is actually 4 discrete features. a stacking exploration buff (all that carry capacity on a Bugbear or Goliath?), a buff to the Web-Sling feature, a fighting style, and can't be surprised, which (using current 1D&D rules) is actually a full party defense since enemies won't be able to use surprise to get advantage on initiative. That said, I feel they're all niche enough bonuses that I don't mind handing them all out at once.

[MutantDragon]

Thank you so much for the feedback!

For the Webslinging, it's definitely intended to be a 30ft pull that ends the target grappled. I thought I'd written it as a pretty tight if/then for when they're pulled to your hand they're grappled. As for "pulling something to your hand" I think the most reasonable conclusion for ruling it would be "if the hand is free, then you're holding the object, if the hand is full, it then ends the movement in the nearest space." I can't think of too many interpretations that go beyond that without being fairly malicious in their intent. But I'll give it another look.

Edits: I tightened up the language for Web-Sling to require a free hand which I feel clarifies intent without narrowing application overmuch.

I'm keeping blindfighting explicitly because it's a readily understood existing rule (the same reason I made it "cast Web" instead of creating a nearly identical weblike application of Web-Slinging. I can choose elegance when it suits).

Any other bonus to Superior Spider Strength would just feel like gilding a lily as this level's feature is already a two-fer that is actually 4 discrete features. a stacking exploration buff (all that carry capacity on a Bugbear or Goliath?), a buff to the Web-Sling feature, a fighting style, and can't be surprised, which (using current 1D&D rules) is actually a full party defense since enemies won't be able to use surprise to get advantage on initiative. That said, I feel they're all niche enough bonuses that I don't mind handing them all out at once.

Fair enough. You’re right that the language on web-slinging was fairly clear on the intent, I just feel that playing devil’s advocate on occasion can help with finding slight ambiguity between what you clearly mean and what you literally say so you can nip that in the bud early. I like your reasoning on the other parts, too.

[BerzerkerUnit]

I think what's fun about barbarian subclasses is how the daily resource expense of the rage use lets you push the power level of the features. I understand the impulse to give barbarians non-rage features, but if that happens at the expense of the barbarian's unique design space I think that's a mistake. At a certain point you're better off making a fighter subclass instead if rage doesn't really factor into your design.

I appreciate this sentiment but I think the majority of the player base (at least those represented by folks that use social media to discuss D&D) shares a pretty well supported opinion that time has shown this is bad design.

Most of the D&D punditry considers Barbarian 10-20 a waste of levels better spent Multiclassing explicitly because Rage eats so much of that design budget that when you aren't raging (whether out of uses or conserving uses for a tougher fight) you're just playing a subpar fighter. Letting Rage be what it is (an awesome resource in its own right and worth doing whenever you can) and giving the barb more to do when not raging is generally going to lead to a better Player experience.

At least it would for me, and seemingly the majority of talking heads that make their career out of D&D at this time.

[animorte]

I just feel that playing devil’s advocate on occasion can help with finding slight ambiguity between what you clearly mean and what you literally say so you can nip that in the bud early.

I probably do this waaay too much. It’s nice that somebody else takes over for a minute.

I’ll see about getting an entry in myself (provided life allows) and some devil’s advocate reviews. I’ve got some days off coming up.

I was looking forward to this theme so much that I caught myself in paralysis trying to figure out which idea I like most.

[MutantDragon]

I probably do this waaay too much. It’s nice that somebody else takes over for a minute.

I’ll see about getting an entry in myself (provided life allows) and some devil’s advocate reviews. I’ve got some days off coming up.

I was looking forward to this theme so much that I caught myself in paralysis trying to figure out which idea I like most.

It's a thankless task, but someone has to do it. I look forward to seeing what you come up with! And I will gladly advocate for the devil when he attempts to break your design!

[MutantDragon]

@Old Harry MTX

I really like the direction your subclass is going. It seems to be chock full of Spider-Man goodies and has some nice twists to better integrate it into a fantasy setting. I look forward to seeing the completed mechanics.

[animorte]

It's a thankless task, but someone has to do it. I look forward to seeing what you come up with! And I will gladly advocate for the devil when he attempts to break your design!

I expect nothing different.

[Old Harry MTX]

@Old Harry MTX

I really like the direction your subclass is going. It seems to be chock full of Spider-Man goodies and has some nice twists to better integrate it into a fantasy setting. I look forward to seeing the completed mechanics.

Thankyou! Honestly, i have a lot of ideas, none of them are original but all tied toghether should make something interesting. Also, i need to test it, but the ability to choose and upgrade a limited number of base features should be a simple but original mechanic I like to explore.

[Notafish]

I have to say I'm very tempted to throw out my first idea (Barbarian based on Conan) in favor of another Spider-subclass... How many Spider-Man is too much Spider-Man?

[Old Harry MTX]

I have to say I'm very tempted to throw out my first idea (Barbarian based on Conan) in favor of another Spider-subclass... How many Spider-Man is too much Spider-Man?

Never enough, in the spider-verse!

[MutantDragon]

I have to say I'm very tempted to throw out my first idea (Barbarian based on Conan) in favor of another Spider-subclass... How many Spider-Man is too much Spider-Man?

Too much Spider-Man?! I must have misread that! There's no such thing as too much Spider-Man!

[sengmeng]

Let's just rename the theme Into the Spiderverse

[Crim the Cold]

Path of Bul-Kathos is up. Probably needs some fine tuning. I dont like the wording of Whirlwind Attack and I'm considering swapping Dual Wield and Berserk. Any feedback would be appreciated.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm tempted to post an artificer subclass that flies around on a mechanical flying platform and throws explosives at people. Green coloration and goblinoid racial synergy totally optional.

[Old Harry MTX]

I'm already working on my Spiderman, but since i'm playing GoW Ragnarok right now, I was thinking that if someone need an idea to develop, Kratos the Ghost of Sparta would be a nice Barbarian one!

[animorte]

Let's just rename the theme Into the Spiderverse

Truth. We could do any number of villains as well. Speaking of which:

I'm tempted to post an artificer subclass that flies around on a mechanical flying platform and throws explosives at people. Green coloration and goblinoid racial synergy totally optional.

Haha, this legitimately made me laugh. I was honestly considering an Artificer zooming around in his mechanical arms.

Path of Bul-Kathos is up. Probably needs some fine tuning. I dont like the wording of Whirlwind Attack and I'm considering swapping Dual Wield and Berserk. Any feedback would be appreciated.

Will definitely try to get all my reviews in for everybody sometime around the end of the week.

I'm already working on my Spiderman, but since i'm playing GoW Ragnarok right now, I was thinking that if someone need an idea to develop, Kratos the Ghost of Sparta would be a nice Barbarian one!

I’m so very tempted. I haven’t had the pleasure of playing the new one, but I loved the 2018 GoW.

Just sharing some of this here…

Spoiler: Current thoughts

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I have too many ideas and analysis paralysis may well prevent me from accomplishing much of anything this time around. We’ll see…

• Children’s author: Warlock patron (basically Dr. Seuss) in which different popular characters of his can be either summoned OR their various strengths and abilities embodied, maybe a combination of both.
• He who must not be named: I guess it would be a Wizard subclass (though I could argue Sorcerer) in which I build a concept for Voldemort and his Horcruxes.
• Pokemon trainer: Probably an Artificer focusing on different power-ups via items to empower your summons, each that can eventually evolve.
• Chi-blocker: Of course, this could easily be a Monk, more precisely a martial that specializes in shutting down casters benders or removing a threat from the fight.
• Could join in with some MCU/DC/other concept of my own. Barbarian for Wolverine, Warlock for Raven, Ranger for Groot…
• Any number of Disney characters, but that’s a different project I’m working on. This includes a massive variety.
• Elemental bender: It’s one of my favorite ideas, but it’s been done so much recently and I don’t think I have enough time for the structure I desire.
• Any League of Legends champion.
• Spiderman: Because everybody is doing it. Artificer for me because he’s smart. Add Intelligence to attack rolls and initiative. New items to simulate web slinging fun!

This theme just provides too much freedom!

[animorte]

My entry has been posted! Punching everything into submission and… what’s that? It’s spell-slinging? Monk: Way of Ki-Blocking has been submitted!

Also, have some of my classic mediocre reviews!

Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler

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I like anything to do with grappling hook style play and this does a good job of it. Though I would think that a target at least your size would be allowed a Strength save to resist being pulled. Or is that built into their save to resist being grappled?

Also, I’m not sure how likely we are to have a STRogue that wants to grapple, but it’s been done before!

Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Psychokinetic

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You may not know that mage hand is my favorite cantrip. This gives it the life it has always deserved.

Reckless Force: I still think it would make more sense for the target to make a save to avoid falling prone (spell save DC perhaps). However, the forced movement is fair in all instances because Repelling Blast and Grasp of Hadar exist, no save.

Psychokinetic Storm is phenomenal.

Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Bitten by a Magically-Infused Spider

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Arachnoid Aspects: I like the idea of trading out spell slots for stronger physical attributes. Two concerns with that:
1. Does a greater benefit come from trading in a higher level spell slot or is it just +1 per any slot? It seems the latter, which is good.
2. I would remove the words, “and at higher levels” because that was confusing. It just sounds a lot better as, “At first level, you do not learn any 1st-level spells, and your number of sorcerer spells known is permanently reduced by 2.”

Spoiler: Path of the Symbiote

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Symbiote Stretching: You have the word “romantic” instead of “somatic.”

I don’t really have any mechanical advice on this. The subclass itself looks smooth.

Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Way of the Spider

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Do Whatever a Spider Can: This is supposed to be at 6th level, yes? It doesn’t say.

11th: Is that waiting on a name?

Superior Way of the Spider: The image doesn’t seem to be working.
- I don’t think the feral spider is so strong that it should take a week of rest. Maybe 1d4 days?
- The cocoon gave me a cool idea for being protected during a long rest though.

Spoiler: Path of Bul-Kathos

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Looks pretty good overall. It really captures the Diablo swarm-killing spirit.

Dual Wield: I wonder how this will work with Reach weapons? Is there expected to be any additional penalty, restriction, or just keep it the way it is?

My idea for Spider-Man (just to change it up) would have been an Artificer: Arachnologist. Because the Artificer needs more A-named subclasses apparently.

May the best Spider-Man win!

[Notafish]

Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Bitten by a Magically-Infused Spider

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Arachnoid Aspects: I like the idea of trading out spell slots for stronger physical attributes. Two concerns with that:
1. Does a greater benefit come from trading in a higher level spell slot or is it just +1 per any slot? It seems the latter, which is good.
2. I would remove the words, “and at higher levels” because that was confusing. It just sounds a lot better as, “At first level, you do not learn any 1st-level spells, and your number of sorcerer spells known is permanently reduced by 2.”

May the best Spider-Man win!

Thanks for the review - I'm not sure I'm going to be able to polish the class to the point where I'd like it, but I had fun trying to figure out how to come up with a spider-cantrip.

Since I feel like this subclass is a bit of a "What if Peter Parker became Sorcerer Supreme?" thing, I also wonder if anyone has written a "Crimson Bands of Cyttorak" spell.

1. Nope, no benefit from higher level slots. I wanted it to be a diminishing-returns sort of thing. I'm not quite sure if I need to put in language about created spell slots - I probably should, though.
2. Done.

[MutantDragon]

Spoiler: Path of the Symbiote

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Symbiote Stretching: You have the word “romantic” instead of “somatic.”

I don’t really have any mechanical advice on this. The subclass itself looks smooth.

That is officially fixed! Thanks for the feedback. Glad the subclass is looking good!

[BerzerkerUnit]

My entry has been posted! Punching everything into submission and… what’s that? It’s spell-slinging? Monk: Way of the Ki-Blocker has been submitted!

Also, have some of my classic mediocre reviews!

Spoiler: Rogue Archetype: Web-Slinging Wall-Crawler

Show

I like anything to do with grappling hook style play and this does a good job of it. Though I would think that a target at least your size would be allowed a Strength save to resist being pulled. Or is that built into their save to resist being grappled?

Also, I’m not sure how likely we are to have a STRogue that wants to grapple, but it’s been done before!

My idea for Spider-Man (just to change it up) would have been an Artificer: Arachnologist. Because the Artificer needs more A-named subclasses apparently.

May the best Spider-Man win!

Aloha,

Thanks so much for your feedback, it's always appreciated! In short, I try to avoid any instance of "2 chances to resist." The web shot has a chance to miss since it's an attack roll, from there it's movement and a grapple (as you've noticed, the rogue may not be great at that so it's value is likely limited). I wanted to keep it codified for the low level feature "medium and smaller come to me, large and larger I go to them." Once they have 7 levels of that under their belt, the flexibility of "Large can anchor me or be pulled" won't seem like such a leap.

[Old Harry MTX]

[QUOTE=animorte;25642832]

Spoiler: Monastic Tradition: Way of the Spider

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Do Whatever a Spider Can: This is supposed to be at 6th level, yes? It doesn’t say.

11th: Is that waiting on a name?

Superior Way of the Spider: The image doesn’t seem to be working.
- I don’t think the feral spider is so strong that it should take a week of rest. Maybe 1d4 days?
- The cocoon gave me a cool idea for being protected during a long rest though.

Thankyou for your feedback! The subclass is still WIP, hope to have time to finish it the next days. So yes, i need a name for the 11th level feature, adjust everything, and probably make some rework.

I have to decide if nerf the feral spider one but making it once per day, or make it even stronger and keeping it once oer week.

I would also like to add a sort of paladin's tenet called "from great power..."