D&D Subclass Contest Chat Thread 2: Joke Entries Win with Alarming Frequency

[Old Harry MTX]

Boy, I hope to find the time but, you know... I'm trying to save Hyrule once again...

[Notafish]

Okay, I think the Ringer is ready for review.

[Itsfrank]

Oh goodness! I've been so busy but I'll try and get mine done

[SyntheticHuman]

I got the Primal Magic Sorcerer in. This is my first time entering one of these contests, so I'm excited to see how things go!

[sengmeng]

I decided to throw my hat in the ring with the Ronin Roguish Archetype. PEACHes welcome.

[BetweenComments]

Reviewing the submissions as we have a little less than a week left

Spoiler: The Zettel Artisan

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I'm a big fan of this one as it gives Fighter's a turn by turn choice that is not the traditional Superiority Dice set up. Overall a really clean and creative subclass!

Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: The Ringer

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I conceptually really like this as it feels like a very *ahem* 'natural' way for Rogues to cast magic. It does feel very weird balance wise though. The arcane spell list I think is a strict downgrade from Arcane Trickster considering the lack of flexibility in using Shield/Silvery Barbs. Conversely though Cleric is really strong offering Bless and Spiritual Weapon. Similarly Druid gives a decent number of effective aoe debuffs a rogue would benefit from to give advantage, also pass without trace.

Spoiler: Sorcerous Origin: Primal Magic

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Never read the The Dragon Prince as a disclaimer.

I feel like the first level features are missing something to make it stand out. At the moment in practice this gives me: magic innate, find familiar, and a damage conversion that while nice can very wildly in utility (or heck from experience sometimes dms let you learn alt damage type spells for free). Like don't get me wrong the extra spells known are nice but like, how does this differentiate me from one of the many races that get 2 or 3 spells?

Level 6 suffers a similar issue in that it's really generic and varies wildly in usefulness. 14 is a lot more impactful and 18 interesting but both come online so late.

Spoiler: Roguish Archetype: Ronin

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I like this as a battle masterish rogue, even captures the feel of guile over raw damage. I think you can safely remove the con save from Vital Strike though as the resource expenditure is more than enough to justify granting sneak attack w/o advantage or an ally.

I'm going to be traveling but I'll try to review the 3 pending subclasses if I can before the 27th.

[Itsfrank]

I finished the Focus Fighter that gets to choose between stances and different effects that each one has.

[SyntheticHuman]

I feel like the first level features are missing something to make it stand out. At the moment in practice this gives me: magic innate, find familiar, and a damage conversion that while nice can very wildly in utility (or heck from experience sometimes dms let you learn alt damage type spells for free). Like don't get me wrong the extra spells known are nice but like, how does this differentiate me from one of the many races that get 2 or 3 spells?

Level 6 suffers a similar issue in that it's really generic and varies wildly in usefulness. 14 is a lot more impactful and 18 interesting but both come online so late.

I can definitely see those issues, thanks for this! I think I'll rework things just a bit before the deadline. I can probably have the primal sources give abilities instead of spells, that would make them feel more individual and meaningful.

Update: I have reworked the class to be more unique at level one and gain power slightly faster. I'm happier with it now, but please let me know if you have any suggestions.

[Notafish]

Nice entries, everyone!

I am looking forward to the next context, but the description text confuses me a little. Outside of possible references to collectible card games, I'm not quite sure how the summoning aspect meshes with the "calling card" theme. I was interpreting it more like a subclass focusing on signature moves and/or card tricks.

[animorte]

It has historically been referred to as the "summoning theme" though the terminology leaves room open for interpretation. As such...

I was interpreting it more like a subclass focusing on signature moves and/or card tricks.

...this is fine.

[Snowben Gaming]

I'm back, after... over a year's absence. oops.

Well, I'm entering this contest with the Card Hustler rogue.

It's certainly more on the card trick side of things than the summoning (by which I mean entirely card tricks and no summoning lol).

A couple of thoughts I have:

• Considering putting something else at 3rd since at that level using the playing card weapon is pretty pointless since shortbows do as much damage and have longer range
• Not sure about the order of the abilities, I'm pretty happy with their order right now, but originally had Ace Up Your Sleeve and Bottom Deal the other way around
• I know that False Shuffle breaks the trend for rogue abilities to be at will as opposed to per rest, but I figured turning a hit into a crit without needing to do anything was pretty powerful

[Amechra]

Just as a head's up: Bottom Deal effectively means that you roll 1d10+10+modifiers for attack rolls rather than 1d20. It also has the weird quirk of making Disadvantage worse, since it becomes "roll 2d10, pick the lower one".

In other words, a 9th level Card Hustler with Dex 14 auto-hits anything with AC 17 or lower... unless they have Disadvantage, in which case they can't hit anything with an AC greater than 16.

[BetweenComments]

I agree it’s quite frankly way too strong at 9th, however at 3rd-8th level the subclass is functionally a +1 dagger. Can I make the following suggestions?

1. Drop Bottom Deal to 3rd level but give it a charge system (probably either proficiency bonus or [mental stat] uses) or make its effect replace advantage.

2. Make a note for virtual tables it’s equivalent to 1d10+10 (or just 1d10 for disadvantage).

3. Add in a defensive or utility feature to replace bottom deal at lvl 9. Force someone to redraw an attack? Reshuffle initiative? Lotta options here.

[Snowben Gaming]

Thanks for the feedback people!

Just as a head's up: Bottom Deal effectively means that you roll 1d10+10+modifiers for attack rolls rather than 1d20. It also has the weird quirk of making Disadvantage worse, since it becomes "roll 2d10, pick the lower one".

In other words, a 9th level Card Hustler with Dex 14 auto-hits anything with AC 17 or lower... unless they have Disadvantage, in which case they can't hit anything with an AC greater than 16.

I uh... hadn't done the maths on that one. That's uh... yeah, that's waaaay to OP. Thanks for catching me on that.

I agree it’s quite frankly way too strong at 9th, however at 3rd-8th level the subclass is functionally a +1 dagger. Can I make the following suggestions?

1. Drop Bottom Deal to 3rd level but give it a charge system (probably either proficiency bonus or [mental stat] uses) or make its effect replace advantage.

2. Make a note for virtual tables it’s equivalent to 1d10+10 (or just 1d10 for disadvantage).

3. Add in a defensive or utility feature to replace bottom deal at lvl 9. Force someone to redraw an attack? Reshuffle initiative? Lotta options here.

Good suggestions here. I'm definitely nerfing Bottom Deal, but I hadn't actually thought about moving it to 3rd once it's been nerfed.

Bottom Deal stacking with advantage probably wasn't the best idea, so I'm going with it replacing normal advantage effects since it's still a notable upgrade. And I added the note for virtual tabletops.

Currently filling the level 9 gap is Palmed Card, which allows you to "store" a nat 20 you roll to use it somewhere else. I.e. if you roll a nat 20 on initiative, you could store it and use it on an attack roll on your first turn of combat.

[Just to Browse]

The Sagittar is written and posted. Kudos to you if you get all the references in the opening description.

While I was working on it, a question came up. The 5e rules prohibit you from readying anything that takes a bonus action. I added a feature that requires a bA but can also be readied, so I've included an extra line in the relevant feature. My question is: how well-known is this ruling about readying bonus actions? Should I include a note to clarify why the line is in there?

[Snowben Gaming]

Spoiler: The Sagittar

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The Sagittar is written and posted. Kudos to you if you get all the references in the opening description.

...I have got a grand total of 0 of the references lol.

While I was working on it, a question came up. The 5e rules prohibit you from readying anything that takes a bonus action. I added a feature that requires a bA but can also be readied, so I've included an extra line in the relevant feature. My question is: how well-known is this ruling about readying bonus actions? Should I include a note to clarify why the line is in there?

I certainly knew of the no readying bonus actions rule, but that's probably just because I read the rulebooks for fun sometimes. I'd add the note in, better safe than sorry and all that.

Onto feedback!

Sagittar Magic:
Not much to say here except that you gotta love a couple extra thematic spells.

Starsight:
I get that this is supposed to be a ribbon feature, but even still I'd say it's quite weak. Getting darkvision without needing it from your race is cool, but I'd reckon too late? Like, Warlocks can get darkvision that can see through magical darkness at 2nd level (admittedly it takes up an Eldritch Invocation slot, but still) so 7th level to get normal darkvision here just seems way too late. But this is just a flavour ribbon so it's honestly not that big a deal.

I do really like the 3rd level benefits of Starsight, giving a buff to Favoured Terrain while still remaining flavourful, although it does mean that someone who took Deft Explorer from Tasha's doesn't get anything.

Luminous Arsenal:
Now onto the main feature. I like it. It's certainly not what I expected someone to come up with for a summoning theme, but I like it.
When I first read through, I thought it was kinda weak, but then I realised that the bonus damage from Stellar Wind applies to all attacks you or your allies make when stood in it. So now I'm wondering if it's too strong. The ranger subclass damage bonuses usually only apply on the first attack you make and only for you. So I would recommend limiting the bonus damage to one attack per ally (and one for you). You could maybe let it proc on multiple attacks at later levels?

Comet's Tail:
Ah, the bonus action that can be readied. Pretty nifty. Not many mechanical comments on this, but as a head's up, the line "You can also ready this feature as a bonus action." should probably be written as "You can also ready this feature to use as a reaction, even though it is a bonus action." or something like that to make it clearer.

Guiding Starlight:
Improving Stellar Wind's bonus damage I would have put as part of Stellar Wind since all of the official subclasses have their damage improvement as part of the feature, but that's just me being particular.
The temporary hit points and Stellar Wind from movement are nice, but honestly I'd say you could give a few more temporary hit points. They aren't gonna last more than one hit as they are now.

Falling Star:
Woah. That's a lotta damage! Uhhh... That uhh... wow. That's the same ammount of damage as a 10th level Fireball (which doesn't exist, it caps at 9th level) with DOUBLE the radius. And then it increases with every level.
Yeah, I'd say that's a tad too strong. My recommendation would be to reduce the radius slightly and get rid of the scaling. Keep it at 15d6.
But I do love the power fantasy.

Overall Thoughts;
I really like this, it's certainly not what I expected when I read the theme, but I like it. It's a nice support based option for the ranger, which we don't really have officially.

[Just to Browse]

Appreciate the notes, I'll chew on them.

Specifically RE: Falling Star damage, I'm a little torn. In my mind, there's this core conflict between two different design priorities of subclass design at high levels.

Spoiler: A very long digression on subclass design

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The Root of the Problem
Many WotC subclasses offer linear or even logarithmic power curves. We can see this especially in powerful classes like Rune Knight and Gloomstalker, but also original classes like the Battlemaster and Hunter. These classes offer a massive amount of combat power when you first take them, but their later features fall off quickly. There are exceptions (Thief is a big one), but this pattern holds true across a lot of subclass choices.

Because of this power dropoff, many high-level subclass features seem like they could easily have shown up at lower levels. Let's take an example: At level 15, the Horizon Walker Ranger gets a feature called Spectral Defense, which is nearly identical to the base Rogue's Uncanny Dodge. That's a ten level separation for 2 features that are essentially the same.

You (I'm using the indefinite "you" here) could argue that these 2 features should be separated at least a little, e.g. the Horizon Walker can apply resistance to attacks they can't see, and the rogue's tier-up feature makes them feel special so you shouldn't be handing it out willy nilly, that rangers make better use of the attack synergy, etc. And I would probably agree with most of those arguments. But still, ten levels is a hell of a lot of levels. At least in my experience, it can feel pretty lame to get another class's 5th-level ability in late Tier 3, especially when the party mage is throwing around world-shattering magic.

Now, let's put ourselves in the shoes of the average homebrew subclass designer. What do they prioritize?

Priority A: 1st-Party Congruency
One thing you can prioritize is congruency with WotC products. Most WotC products have logarithmic power curves, so you might decide that your own subclasses should do the same. Prioritizing this means writing T3 and T4 subclass features that are roughly as strong as T2 abilities.

The biggest benefit of this strategy is that you can easily slot your existing subclasses alongside other WotC products. Players can easily grok the power level you're aiming for, because they can use other subclasses as reference points. You can say stuff like "this is about as strong as a Gloomstalker", and your players immediately have a rough idea of how to evaluate the class.

However, there are 2 big costs to this strategy: (1) Your design space is more limited, e.g. the space that you're tapping into when writing your 7th-level features is also the space you're tapping into when writing your 15th-level features. (2) Your high-level features aren't as exciting as they could be. Even if the game doesn't reach 15th level, an awesome 15th-level feature is a selling point for the fantasy of a class. There are low-power fantasies that are still exciting at high levels (Fey Wanderer comes to mind), but your pool of options is a lot more limited.

Priority B: Exciting Features
The other priority is excitement, where you intentionally dial up the power budget of your later-level subclass features because you want them to make your readers go "WHAT??? That's AWESOME!" When you write these features, you end up with subclasses that are, on the whole, stronger than what WotC puts out.

There's one very clear benefit to this strategy: You can write novel, exciting, valuable powers for your subclass's later levels. People get excited when reading them, and the characters shine in high-level playtests.

But there are some cons to this approach: (1) You might rub some readers the wrong way, because you're shifting the assumptions of high-level play. (2) In high-level games, your classes frequently become no-brainers, your high-level features are generally just better than the high-level features of other classes. Subclasses like Gloom Stalker might still be competitive, but other subclasses like Planar Warrior probably won't be. That materially reduces your players' opportunities for meaningful choices.

Where should I stand?
Obviously these 2 priorities aren't an either/or deal. Sometimes you can find a perfect feature that feels very 1st-party but is also powerful and exciting. But at least in my experience, I find myself re-litigating this argument in my head every time I write a subclass. Do I write my grounded, consistent features? Do I write crazy features to rival high-level spells? In my personal games, I push for ridiculously powerful high-level features, because I want high-level gameplay to feel materially different from low-level gameplay, but I'm not voting for myself here.

Having lurked around the subclass contest for a while, I think the most popular choice is to push a little towards excitement at high levels, but not all the way. Maybe 60:40 or 75:25.

So that's where I'm stuck with the Falling Star. My comparison point is an exciting effect, the 8th-level spell sunburst. I've cut back on the area and removed the potent blind effect, but dialed up the damage by ~25% with better scaling, and I targeted a weaker save. I think it's probably very slightly weaker than the normal spell because it loses a lot of versatility, but is it weak enough? And, importantly, do other folks think it's weak enough? I'm not sure.

I want to keep the clean 1d6/lvl damage scaling, but I want to make sure that the feature doesn't lean too far towards Priority B. Right now I'm thinking of nerfing the feature in some other ways: probably by switching the save back to Con and not letting you move. A Sagittar would then need to spend their bonus action to teleport into the wake of the explosion if they want to move on their turn.

[Snowben Gaming]

Spoiler: A very short response to a very long digression on subclass design

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Yeah, I get where you're coming from, and I certainly see the benefit of prioritising excitement over congruency. It's just more fun that way.
And Falling Star certainly made me go "Damn, that's cool."

Honestly, I've had some more time to think about it. It may not be as bad as I actually thought. I compared it to Fireball in my feedback. And then I remembered Meteor Swarm exists. 20d6 fire AND 20d6 bludgeoning in FOUR spheres with 40ft radius. At level 17. So uh... 20th level Falling Star with 20d6 radiant in a single 40ft radius sphere suddenly doesn't look so bad lol.

[Amechra]

RE: The two opposing design urges —

This is fundamentally a result of one of D&D's silly design quirks — for a lot of groups, roughly half of the levels in the game are aspirational rather than something you'd meaningfully reach in a campaign. Unless your group is really dedicated (or agrees to start a high-power game), the game is probably going to be wrapping up at level 12-ish (and even that's a bit of a stretch). As a result, anything past that has to be non-critical for the kind of character you're playing. As a result, you see a lot of front-loaded designs, since that maximizes the number of people who can enjoy your sick subclass (or whatever).

There's also the added element of... let's say that I'm playing a Sagittar in a game that's going to wrap up at 13th level. The flashiest power in the subclass isn't available to me. Oh, sure, Stellar Wind is cool and all... but Falling Star is so dang cool looking that I can't help but feel disappointed that I got... what, a light bow that deals a little more damage, a teleport, and the ability to hand out some temp HP to allies next to me/in melee with my target? I know that it's actually more impressive than that, but all I'm going to see is that I'm falling two levels short of a giant lightsplosion. How disappointing.

[Just to Browse]

That latter issue is a problem inherent in level-locked features. If you give a player cool powers to look forward too, they'll feel bummed if they can't reach those levels. But if you don't add cool powers, the class loses some of its "wow" factor because it no longer has the same aspirational element.

The ideal fix for that is structural: Make all levels of the game playable; if our adventures all end at 15th level, classes should also end at 15th level, that way players can have their aspirational cake and eat it too. But in D&D, there's this assumption that every class will be 20 levels and every subclass will have a T3 feature, and the latter 25% of the game isn't particularly fun to play. So we have to wrangle with this nagging choice: do we save aspirational stuff for later levels which may never be played, or do we undercut our sales pitch by putting our flashiest stuff at lower levels?

At least on the internet, I think the problem isn't as bad: There's a 99%+ chance that this class never sees table time, regardless of level. I think that gives us more leeway to put a subclass's coolest abilities at its highest levels, which (IMO) makes for a more enjoyable reading experience.

[animorte]

So, we know there's always possibility of a funny entry. This would probably be my first nominee for that title. Come have a look at the PIMP Fighter and his Harlot.

Just... Don't get too close.

[Notafish]

Well, I wanted it to be a Wizard class, but Bard fit the concept better: I took the spoilers off the College of Street Magic!

[Notafish]

At least on the internet, I think the problem isn't as bad: There's a 99%+ chance that this class never sees table time, regardless of level. I think that gives us more leeway to put a subclass's coolest abilities at its highest levels, which (IMO) makes for a more enjoyable reading experience.

I agree with this - I like being able to imply some sort of story underlying the mechanics of a subclass, where the character reaches apotheosis at the higher levels. I think this is especially useful with subclasses whose base class lacks narrative hooks.

[animorte]

Let's head on over and place those votes! Deadline: September 10th - Calling Card - Voting Thread (5e subclass contest)

[Snowben Gaming]

Wait it's voting time already? Damn that went fast. Never got round to giving feedback. Sorry folks.

[Crim the Cold]

First: Congrats to Just to Browse on winning the last subclass contest!

Second: I really like the discussion on class design above and y'all all make some good points.

Third: I've read both the forum rules and the contest rules and didn't find anything expressly forbidding the use of AI art. Midjourney in their terms of service states, paraphrasing, that as a paid member you own all assets you create with the service. Would it be okay to use AI art in the pdf for a subclass? If it is frowned upon I would understand. If it is not, I am also happy to use some of my render time for others if they wanted to spice up their sub-class description with some AI art. The actual discussions for that would and should take place in private messages and not clog up the post.

[animorte]

Would it be okay to use AI art in the pdf for a subclass? If it is frowned upon I would understand.

This topic was brought up previously and I see no concern with it. If you're worried about it, make a works cited in your spoiler. (Or whatever the more accurate terminology is.)

The actual discussions for that would and should take place in private messages and not clog up the post.

Correct, I was just planning to include this but you already had the forethought. Much appreciated

[Just to Browse]

Thanks Crim! I'm glad so many other folks thought the sagittar idea was cool.

RE: AI Art: I also don't think there's an issue with it by forum rules. Some folks have been using it for the base class contest as well.

Contest Ideas: For the new contest, I've been trying to mull around some ideas and nothing has struck me quite yet. Hoping to do some brainstorming here so I can steal someone else's idea draw inspiration from what other folks are thinking about. Here are a few things I looked into:

• Barb subclass that gives druid spellcasting. I love the idea of mixing the druid's control effects with the barbarian's SMASH.
• Rogue with warlock magic seems like a cool flavor fit, since rogues have that "deal with the devil" vibe. My first thought was sneak attacking with eldritch blast, but that's honestly not that interesting gameplay-wise. If I find some cool gameplay to unlock here, I might jump on it. Keeping my options open for now.
• I was thinking of bringing the War Wizard variant into 5e because I love gishes, but it's basically just a bladesinger... Maybe martial sorcerer or martial druid?
• I was looking at Wildshape Ranger and Wildshape Rogue as ideas, but both of them have shown up in previous Something Borrowed submissions. The Wildshape Rogue even won in Something Borrowed II (damn you Crim!)

[animorte]

For the new contest, I've been trying to mull around some ideas and nothing has struck me quite yet. Hoping to do some brainstorming here so I can steal someone else's idea draw inspiration from what other folks are thinking about.

I like it when someone feels as though a particular subclass would better suit a different base class. For example, I loved the 3.5e Soulknife and when I discovered it was in 5e, I was surprised that it wasn't actually a Fighter subclass (didn't make me like it any less). Re-flavoring and building similar pre-existing concepts around a different base class is interesting to see.

I also made a huge list of ideas during the last Something Borrowed (spoiler: it was actually my first homebrew contest submission).

[Crim the Cold]

I also made a huge list of ideas during the last Something Borrowed (spoiler: it was actually my first homebrew contest submission).

I think a Something Borrowed topic was my first contest submission as well. Its the first one I remember anyways.