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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Armorer and Bad Writing

    I'm gonna say that on the whole, I am kind of disappointed with Tasha's because it adds very little value for me, but that's another matter. I did read Artificer's Armorer subclass, and I am quite disgusted by its wording.

    Apparently, even though the Arcane Armor comes with chest piece, helmet, boots, gauntlets and weapon, they all count as one item for Infusions. I mean, did anyone else get this on first reading, without having to read the Level 9 feature? Seems like a 'Gotcha' style of writing rules. Full body armors are made up of different parts, why is it assumed that the whole thing is one item? They also point out that the gauntlet is a special weapon, why isn't it considered separate from the armor? Weapons and armors are different things.

    Also, I'm seeing a lot of text in Tasha's that end up being a waste of space useless wording. So one of the Arcane Armor's feature is that it 'can't be removed against your will, and expands to cover your entire body. It also can retract the helmet as a bonus action and replace missing limbs.' So the armor has a built in anti-rape system... great. How often does your armor gets removed against your will? How often you play a character with missing limbs? And why does WotC wants to tell me how the armor looks? Yes, i know its based on Ironman, but these things are useless and adds little value, similar to Rune Knight telling you how many inches you gain in height.

    I know sometimes there are ribbon abilities, but these aren't even ribbons. What's the point you tell me that the armor covers my entire body? I still can drown right? I still can breath harmful gases too. A ribbon would be saying the armor provides air supply for 1 hour, or advantage against harmful gas effects. Tony stark made his armor cover his entire body for a reason.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    This... seems more like a rant looking for problems.

    The armor counting as a single item thing is awkward because in the base rules armor is just a single piece, it probably could have been handled better but it's hardly the fault of the Armorer subclass that the problem exists to begin with.

    As for the ribbon abilities, they're ribbon abilities, why do you have a problem with them? The bulk of the meaningful abilities come from the types of armor, the ribbons are extra.

    As for how often you're forcibly removed from your armor? Any time you're knocked out or captured? Replacing missing limbs gives a mechanical way to support people that want to play that type of character or groups that play with the lingering injury table, where losing a limb is a real worry.

    Question: If those ribbons just didn't exist, would you actually be bothered? Would you notice a gap in the design space given how much the subtypes offer? If the answer is no, then why does their existance irritate you?
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    This... seems more like a rant looking for problems.

    The armor counting as a single item thing is awkward because in the base rules armor is just a single piece, it probably could have been handled better but it's hardly the fault of the Armorer subclass that the problem exists to begin with.

    As for the ribbon abilities, they're ribbon abilities, why do you have a problem with them? The bulk of the meaningful abilities come from the types of armor, the ribbons are extra.

    As for how often you're forcibly removed from your armor? Any time you're knocked out or captured? Replacing missing limbs gives a mechanical way to support people that want to play that type of character or groups that play with the lingering injury table, where losing a limb is a real worry.

    Question: If those ribbons just didn't exist, would you actually be bothered? Would you notice a gap in the design space given how much the subtypes offer? If the answer is no, then why does their existance irritate you?
    Have to second this.

    Also, note that all magic armors count as one item.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    I believe Armor counts as one item because the AC system would be a nightmare with mix and match. Mix and match armor would work with body hit locations and damage reduction armor system.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    I think the real issue is the ability to tack on 2 more infusions to the armor, and how there is no explanation about how that works.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilatheYeon View Post
    I think the real issue is the ability to tack on 2 more infusions to the armor, and how there is no explanation about how that works.
    What information do you need?
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    What information do you need?
    It's not that i need any. It's that i'm seeing conflicting interpretations that everyone seems to think is set in stone.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    Zombie

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Ancient Armorer Secret! Shhhh.

    Seriously, it's not that surprising that an expert in magical armor would be able to bend the rules as they improve their expertise.
    I am the flush of excitement. The blush on the cheek. I am the Rouge!

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    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    To be fair, the armorer does have 1-2 sticking points. Like does the armorer's built in weapons fullfil the required cost for the new BB/GFB cantrips?
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  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by AttilatheYeon View Post
    It's not that i need any. It's that i'm seeing conflicting interpretations that everyone seems to think is set in stone.
    They can count their armor as multiple individual elements instead of the standard single item. To go along with this they can infuse two more items than normal, on the condition that those infusions go onto their armor. Is the confusing part what you can infuse before this point? Because it seems pretty clear when you get the ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by stoutstien View Post
    To be fair, the armorer does have 1-2 sticking points. Like does the armorer's built in weapons fullfil the required cost for the new BB/GFB cantrips?
    To be fair though that's a problem with them trying to rework the SCAGtrips for some reason, it created multiple problems including Shadow Blade. They had a real problem this time around with just reprinting things without messing it up (looking at you Bladesinger).
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Apparently, even though the Arcane Armor comes with chest piece, helmet, boots, gauntlets and weapon, they all count as one item for Infusions. I mean, did anyone else get this on first reading, without having to read the Level 9 feature? Seems like a 'Gotcha' style of writing rules. Full body armors are made up of different parts, why is it assumed that the whole thing is one item? They also point out that the gauntlet is a special weapon, why isn't it considered separate from the armor? Weapons and armors are different things.
    This means that you can't apply an infusion such as Enhanced Weapons on the gauntlets until you reach level 9, meaning you are better off using another weapon until you are high level. I agree about the bad wording.

    I think the real issue is the ability to tack on 2 more infusions to the armor, and how there is no explanation about how that works.
    Yes, it is unclear for example if the helmet could be infused with Enhanced Defense, giving another +1/+2 to AC.

  12. - Top - End - #12
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    ProsecutorGodot's Avatar

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by follacchioso View Post
    Yes, it is unclear for example if the helmet could be infused with Enhanced Defense, giving another +1/+2 to AC.
    What do you mean? It's a default restriction that you can only apply a known infusion to a single item at a time, no stacking enhanced defense allowed.

    Edit: Oh, you probably meant does the helmet count as a "suit of armor" if it's infused by itself. That might be a bit ambiguous.
    Last edited by ProsecutorGodot; 2020-11-25 at 08:36 AM.

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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by follacchioso View Post
    Yes, it is unclear for example if the helmet could be infused with Enhanced Defense, giving another +1/+2 to AC.
    The text is quite explicit in labelling the chest piece as armor, the others are just a helmet and boots, not actual pieces of amor in a mechanical sense. So you can only use an armor required infusion on the chest piece.
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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post
    ...

    The armor counting as a single item thing is awkward because in the base rules armor is just a single piece, it probably could have been handled better but it's hardly the fault of the Armorer subclass that the problem exists to begin with.

    ...
    Just a couple of comments ...

    The armor is described as one piece covering the entire body with a retractable helmet and presumably integrated gauntlets and boots.

    Does this mean an armorer is unable to wear magical boots? Magical bracers? Magical gauntlets? Headband of intellect? Helm of Telepathy? Can they wear gauntlets of ogre power or do the suit gauntlets get in the way? If the Armorer is prevented from wearing a wide array of magical items because the suit gets in the way, why is the ability to add infusions to the parts that aren't normally considered part of a suit of armor delayed until 9th level?

    At 9th level the armorer can apply infusions to boots/gloves/helm as well. Can they have infused boots on the suit underneath a pair of Boots of Elvenkind?

    If the idea is an "Ironman" concept then the Armorer is at a severe magical item disadvantage since a lot of the useful magic items they might have been able to wear (hat/helm, gloves/bracers, boots/shoes/slippers) are significantly better than some of their infusions and don't count as armor.

    As to the OPs comments, I'd tend to agree that not being able to be forced to remove the armor isn't of much use. After playing D&D for a very long time, I've never seen that happen. Also, the armorer has to spend a bonus action to take off a helm while for most characters taking off a helm might be ruled as a free object interaction. Why make an automated helmet retraction process more onerous than someone doffing a hat?

    Anyway, there is often flavor text associated with any D&D product, most of the OPs comments appear to be that there is more flavor than substance in some of the elements of Tasha's though from the parts I have read I don't think it is any worse than other products from that perspective.
    Last edited by Keravath; 2020-11-25 at 08:50 AM.

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    KorvinStarmast's Avatar

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    From the engineer in me, they ought to have called it "one assembly" rather than "one piece"
    The armor is described as one piece covering the entire body with a retractable helmet and presumably integrated gauntlets and boots.
    Retractable helmet?
    Does this mean an armorer is unable to wear magical boots? Magical bracers? Magical gauntlets? Headband of intellect? Helm of Telepathy? Can they wear gauntlets of ogre power or do the suit gauntlets get in the way?

    If the Armorer is prevented from wearing a wide array of magical items because the suit gets in the way, why is the ability to add infusions to the parts that aren't normally considered part of a suit of armor delayed until 9th level?
    "Balance concerns" is a possible answer to this.

    At 9th level the armorer can apply infusions to boots/gloves/helm as well. Can they have infused boots on the suit underneath a pair of Boots of Elvenkind?
    I'd say no, but let the munchkinery commence for putting boots on top of boots. There is a real world precedent for this: golashes. Those are boots that you put on over your shoes. Here's the magic item description.

    Quote Originally Posted by possible new magical item
    Elven golashes (Wondrous item, rare)
    These magical boots have four buckles on them going from just behind the toe to just above the ankle. They can be donned over any other footwear, from high heeled shoes to steel toed combat boots, and will fit perfectly over them. The wearer of these golashes has advantage on Stealth checks related to movement. The wearer's feet are also protected from any ice, snow, water, or mud regardless of what the creature is walking through. Stepping into lava with these boots immediately destroys them.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-11-25 at 09:41 AM.
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  16. - Top - End - #16
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    stoutstien's Avatar

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dork_Forge View Post

    To be fair though that's a problem with them trying to rework the SCAGtrips for some reason, it created multiple problems including Shadow Blade. They had a real problem this time around with just reprinting things without messing it up (looking at you Bladesinger).
    That's definitely the case but it does cause cases of ambiguity that will need addressed.
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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Keravath View Post
    Just a couple of comments ...

    The armor is described as one piece covering the entire body with a retractable helmet and presumably integrated gauntlets and boots.

    Does this mean an armorer is unable to wear magical boots? Magical bracers? Magical gauntlets? Headband of intellect? Helm of Telepathy? Can they wear gauntlets of ogre power or do the suit gauntlets get in the way? If the Armorer is prevented from wearing a wide array of magical items because the suit gets in the way, why is the ability to add infusions to the parts that aren't normally considered part of a suit of armor delayed until 9th level?
    Is anyone wearing a +1 Plate Armor unable to wear magical boots, helms or gauntlets?

    Obviously not, they're able to do it. Same thing for the Artificier.

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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    I think the money cost was to prevent the weapon from being replaced with a focus item, a thing I am pretty sure no one actually did. I would say if the weapon is part of an item the item needs to fulfill the cost requirement, and wouldn't shadow blade be worth a 2nd-level casting service.
    The item slots don't matter anymore anyway, follow attunement rules and balance should be achieved.

    A bigger fish, can Artificers make magic items that they can replicate?
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2020-11-25 at 09:50 AM.
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  19. - Top - End - #19
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    Imp

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    A bigger fish, can Artificers make magic items that they can replicate?
    I don't get what you mean? Do you have an example?

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    I think the money cost was to prevent the weapon from being replaced with a focus item, a thing I am pretty sure no one actually did. I would say if the weapon is part of an item the item needs to fulfill the cost requirement, and wouldn't shadow blade be worth a 2nd-level casting service.
    The item slots don't matter anymore anyway, follow attunement rules and balance should be achieved.

    A bigger fish, can Artificers make magic items that they can replicate?
    Crafting is still 100% DM call for better or for worse.its why it's hard to pin down just how power the class is as a whole. If the gates wide open the lv 10 feature is Pandora's box with scrolls alone.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Armorer and Bad Writing

    I agree that armor should not be separated into individual pieces, but it seems to me that the weapon should not be combined with the armor.

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