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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    I understand the behavior of planar binding right up until after the successful charisma check.

    Spoiler: Planar Binding Text
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    Casting this spell attempts a dangerous act: to lure a creature from another plane to a specifically prepared trap, which must lie within the spell’s range. The called creature is held in the trap until it agrees to perform one service in return for its freedom.

    To create the trap, you must use a magic circle spell, focused inward. The kind of creature to be bound must be known and stated. If you wish to call a specific individual, you must use that individual’s proper name in casting the spell.

    The target creature is allowed a Will saving throw. If the saving throw succeeds, the creature resists the spell. If the saving throw fails, the creature is immediately drawn to the trap (spell resistance does not keep it from being called). The creature can escape from the trap with by successfully pitting its spell resistance against your caster level check, by dimensional travel, or with a successful Charisma check (DC 15 + ½ your caster level + your Cha modifier). It can try each method once per day. If it breaks loose, it can flee or attack you. A dimensional anchor cast on the creature prevents its escape via dimensional travel. You can also employ a calling diagram (see magic circle against evil) to make the trap more secure.

    If the creature does not break free of the trap, you can keep it bound for as long as you dare. You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward. If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service. New offers, bribes, and the like can be made or the old ones reoffered every 24 hours. This process can be repeated until the creature promises to serve, until it breaks free, or until you decide to get rid of it by means of some other spell. Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to. If you roll a 1 on the Charisma check, the creature breaks free of the binding and can escape or attack you.

    Once the requested service is completed, the creature need only so inform you to be instantly sent back whence it came. The creature might later seek revenge. If you assign some open-ended task that the creature cannot complete though its own actions the spell remains in effect for a maximum of one day per caster level, and the creature gains an immediate chance to break free. Note that a clever recipient can subvert some instructions.

    When you use a calling spell to call an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful, or water creature, it is a spell of that type.


    What I don't understand is "you can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service". Suppose your service is, "go to market and buy me a loaf of bread".

    I'm well aware that the outsider might subvert your instructions somehow, but what I don't understand is why the outsider even bothers trying. Once you release it from the summoning circle, if the reward you offered isn't good, why doesn't the outsider take your money, kill you, and then go spend it on a nice pair of shoes or something. The only answers I can think of are:

    1) The outsider renders the service because the charisma check represented them agreeing to do it, and the outsider doesn't typically change their mind.

    This sharply limits uses of the spell, and practically expects the DM to interpret "unreasonable demands" quite liberally. The word "compel" seems quite out of place in the spell description in that case.

    2) There is an ongoing magical effect that compels the creature to behave.

    The duration of planar binding is "instantaneous". No other spell I know of with instantaneous duration provides an ongoing compulsion. You might argue that only actually calling the creature is instantaneous and the compulsion is an ongoing effect, implying that the duration tag should actually read: instantaneous; see text. This would also have a bunch of implications, namely that an AMF would turn off the compulsion, a targeted dispel magic could remove or suppress the compulsion, or a disjunction could remove the binding.

    Is there any material that gets detailed about how the ongoing compulsion occurs?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Some people also make so that the demon go buy bread then the adventurer goes outside and see a demon army and everything is on fire.
    The demon simply decided to go buy bread from other demons in exchange for souls and travel to this world.
    By the way the bread was the best bread made from souls of innocent people: you will never find a bread that tastes better.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-25 at 04:29 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #3
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    The fact that they get sent back (without you or them casting another spell) when the task is completed strongly suggests that there is a continuing effect, and the fact that open-ended tasks have a duration limit (1 day/level) does as well.

    I'd just treat it as a "durable" effect like Flesh to Stone or Mindr***. So it can't be dispelled or suppressed, but could be removed with Wish or Miracle.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-11-25 at 05:26 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #4

    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    planar binding is slavery
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ing-is-SLAVERY

    thats why.

  5. - Top - End - #5
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    The fact that they get sent back (without you or them casting another spell) when the task is completed strongly suggests that there is a continuing effect, and the fact that open-ended tasks have a duration limit (1 day/level) does as well.

    I'd just treat it as a "durable" effect like Flesh to Stone or Mindr***. So it can't be dispelled or suppressed, but could be removed with Wish or Miracle.
    In both of those cases it seems clear that the effect could have been instantaneous. A fireball might turn you into ash, but it doesn't mean that it has an ongoing effect. It's substantially less clear to me in the case of an ongoing planar binding compulsion.


    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    planar binding is slavery
    https://forums.giantitp.com/showthre...ing-is-SLAVERY

    thats why.
    A) This doesn't answer the question. I want to know precisely how the "slavery" in this case is maintained.

    B) {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-29 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    B) This whole thing reeks of a player on some weird power trip. I'm completely unsurprised that the original author was banned from this forum.

    From the third post in that thread: "I had this debate with more than one person. Way more. Like a lot more because a lot of DMs miss the entire point of Planar Binding. So having a list of RAW that definitively proves them wrong is handy."

    Yikes.
    I've been on the forums for a few years now and I can definitely say there are a huge number of people who espouse that your "1)" interpretation of the spell is the one true RAW. So what's wrong about compiling a list of official examples that instantly and definitively prove these people wrong without having a 50 page debate about it?

    If your having trouble understanding how an undispellable permanent Geas effect that cannot be thwarted by any means works then I suggest you check out the mindrape spell and see if that helps you understand how an instantaneous duration geas/quest with no spell descriptors would look like.

  7. - Top - End - #7
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    Devil

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    A) This doesn't answer the question. I want to know precisely how the "slavery" in this case is maintained.

    B) {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    This is the first time I have seen that thread (even though I have been reading this forum for years before registering) but this is pure ad hominem. Reasoning is either sound or not, regardless of presentation or motivation. Poster being banned have even less relation to something being true or not.

    Desire to know rules in advance instead of playing DM-may-I is also not something unusual. RAW interpretation/discussion has not started as means to win times infinity (however quickly it may reached that threshold).

    I have looked through that thread and while it doesn't provide precise mechanics of "how" it makes a really strong case for "what": according to rulebooks outsiders don't skedaddle after being released.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-30 at 11:46 AM.

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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I've been on the forums for a few years now and I can definitely say there are a huge number of people who espouse that your "1)" interpretation of the spell is the one true RAW. So what's wrong about compiling a list of official examples that instantly and definitively prove these people wrong without having a 50 page debate about it?
    I'm pretty unhappy with the "#1" for the reasons I outlined, but the linked post seems quite consistent with it. The first ToM example suggests that what is being offered is freedom. The second ToM example is obvious nonsense that's been debated about on this board without very consistent resolution.

    The MMIV example isn't inconsistent with "#1". The FCII example could just as easily be a devil that agreed to service and is looking forward to his earned rewards. He's greatly upset that he agreed but his lawfulness compels him to keep his word.

    It looks like that page just created an extra fifty page debate, and is slightly orthogonal to the actual question I'm trying to answer. What precisely compels the ongoing obedience of the creature. A magical effect, an agreement they're happy to keep, or some third option?

    If your having trouble understanding how an undispellable permanent Geas effect that cannot be thwarted by any means works then I suggest you check out the mindrape spell and see if that helps you understand how an instantaneous duration geas/quest with no spell descriptors would look like.
    Is there an official 3.5 version for reference? I think it was in the spell compendium but can't recall its name. I'm also somewhat puzzled as Break Enchantment is specifically called out as removing it. Is that likely to be an oversight in the PB description in your view?

  9. - Top - End - #9
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saint-Just View Post
    This is the first time I have seen that thread (even though I have been reading this forum for years before registering) but this is pure ad hominem. Reasoning is either sound or not, regardless of presentation or motivation. Poster being banned have even less relation to something being true or not.

    Desire to know rules in advance instead of playing DM-may-I is also not something unusual. RAW interpretation/discussion has not started as means to win times infinity (however quickly it may reached that threshold).

    I have looked through that thread and while it doesn't provide precise mechanics of "how" it makes a really strong case for "what": according to rulebooks outsiders don't skedaddle after being released.
    {scrubbed}. 😂 You're correct though that it has nothing to do with whether or not the argument is accurate!

    The real problem, which you've helpfully noted is that the thread seems slightly orthogonal to my original question. It does argue "what" rather than "why" or "how", and it's the "why" and "how" that I'm after.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-29 at 12:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    I suppose to me, as with most things, if I’m DMing, I have (at least intelligent, capable) NPCs scheme and twist pretty much about as much as PCs do.

    If PCs look to abuse what planar binding etc. can do, then (a) so will binding victims but also (b) most definitely so will BBEGs, who are after all usually higher in level than PCs and rarely more burdened by morals or ethics than PCs.

    If there’s a question of what constitutes “abusive” at a given table, that’s partly what Spellcraft/Knowledge checks are for, but also, like, actually talking out what is reasonable for us as a group.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Re-opened.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-29 at 12:11 PM.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
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    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by tiercel View Post
    I suppose to me, as with most things, if I’m DMing, I have (at least intelligent, capable) NPCs scheme and twist pretty much about as much as PCs do.

    If PCs look to abuse what planar binding etc. can do, then (a) so will binding victims but also (b) most definitely so will BBEGs, who are after all usually higher in level than PCs and rarely more burdened by morals or ethics than PCs.

    If there’s a question of what constitutes “abusive” at a given table, that’s partly what Spellcraft/Knowledge checks are for, but also, like, actually talking out what is reasonable for us as a group.
    Absolutely true. But aside from what counts as abusive I'm wondering if there is any 1st or 3rd party material that goes into detail about *what precisely* compels the fiend to the agreement. Their free choice or a Compulsion effect?

  13. - Top - End - #13

    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    To answer the first post
    Instantaneous Duration = Super Permanent Duration.
    Permanent Duration lasts forever, but Instantaneous Duration lasts forever AND can't be dispelled. Hence I coin the term "Super Permanent Duration".

    The charisma check part of the planar binding is like the opposed charisma check of charm. Its just an additional way for the creature to defend themselves against the binding. And if he fails that then he is enslaved. In the Planar Binding is Slavery thread, crafting elemental items is a direct example of the charisma checking forcing a creature into enslavement.

    So once the creature fails the charisma check, he essentially has a Super Permanent Duration geas/quest placed on him and that's why Planar Bound Outsiders don't cheat.

  14. - Top - End - #14
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    To answer the first post
    Instantaneous Duration = Super Permanent Duration.
    Permanent Duration lasts forever, but Instantaneous Duration lasts forever AND can't be dispelled. Hence I coin the term "Super Permanent Duration".

    The charisma check part of the planar binding is like the opposed charisma check of charm. Its just an additional way for the creature to defend themselves against the binding. And if he fails that then he is enslaved. In the Planar Binding is Slavery thread, crafting elemental items is a direct example of the charisma checking forcing a creature into enslavement.

    So once the creature fails the charisma check, he essentially has a Super Permanent Duration geas/quest placed on him and that's why Planar Bound Outsiders don't cheat.
    Dispel doesn't work on instantaneous stuff, but...

    Remove Curse, Break Enchantment (up to fifth level), Greater Restoration, Heal, Limited Wish, Wish, Freedom and Miracle all seem to work on various instantaneous or otherwise not dispellable effects. Which of these in your should work on Planar Binding, if it's a compulsion?

    I read the thread carefully but don't think it answers my question one way or another. Furthermore, there's no particular reason to believe that the elemental agreed to go in and then was trapped by the item, not the binding.

    What I'm looking for is first or third party material that carefully explains the actual mechanism.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    Dispel doesn't work on instantaneous stuff, but...

    Remove Curse, Break Enchantment (up to fifth level), Greater Restoration, Heal, Limited Wish, Wish, Freedom and Miracle all seem to work on various instantaneous or otherwise not dispellable effects. Which of these in your should work on Planar Binding, if it's a compulsion?
    None. Planar Binding is not an enchantment effect. Its not a compulsion effect because it doesn't have the compulsion tag. It's not a mind-affecting effect because it doesn't have the mind-affecting tag.

    Once the binding happens absolutely nothing can free the creature from the binding until he finishes his job. That's why its such a powerful spell. If the creature is in a dead magic zone, he still has to obey his binding.

    I mentioned mindrape to help you understand how a instantaneous duration mind control effect looks like because mindrape victims are not freed by dead magic zones either.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    I read the thread carefully but don't think it answers my question one way or another. Furthermore, there's no particular reason to believe that the elemental agreed to go in and then was trapped by the item, not the binding.
    Read the eberron books that deal with elemental crafting. They go into detail about creating an infinite maze and the elemental forever wandering them generates the energy.

    This is the answer and how the spell works. If you refuse to accept it then your not really trying to figure out how the rules work.


    edit: Maybe this will help you understand further
    Finger of Death is a death effect and is stopped by Death Ward.
    Implosion, despite doing the exact same thing as Finger of Death (instant kill on failed save), it is NOT a death effect, therefore is not stopped by Death Ward.

    Geas/Quest is a Mind-Affecting Compulsion effect and is stopped by protection from evil, dispel magic, etc.
    Planar Binding, despite doing the exact same thing as Geas/Quest, is NOT a complusion/mind-affecting/enchantment effect, therefore is not stopped by protection from evil, dispel magic, etc.

    Planar Binding is an Instantaneous Duration Geas/Quest effect that has none of the tags, weaknesses, etc. and the enslaved creature cannot be freed from it, ever, forever, until its job is done.

    And the opposed charisma check is you dominating a monster like Dominate Monster or Charm. Its not a negotiation, its not a bribe. Those things merely give you a bonus to the charisma check. The charisma check is a dominate monster/charm/geas/quest effect, not a voluntarily agreement deal thing. That's Planar Ally, not Binding.

    I can't be more clear than this. This is the best I can do.
    Last edited by gogogome; 2020-11-29 at 06:47 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    I can't be more clear than this. This is the best I can do.
    I appreciate it and I'll check out the Eberron book, but it seems like you missed my point there. My point was that it's not Planar Binding that keeps the elemental in, but something about the item. In this case if it's a maze the required binding isn't necessarily: "do this maze forever", but maybe rather "go into this space". In my view that requires a much more straightforward reading of LPB. I haven't reviewed the Eberron stuff though, so I don't know.

    You haven't lacked clarity. I just don't find it a particularly convincing argument. For example, when you talk about Protection from X the relevant line is:

    "exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects"

    You have to take a very restrictive reading of "including" here as "including and limited exclusively to", but "including but not limited" to seems to be just as valid a reading.

    It seems to me that you've taken a very conservative reading of every spell (including wish!) that could possibly free a compelled creature on the basis that being magically compelled doesn't count as magical Compulsion.

    On the other hand you're applying a very liberal reading to the LPB text.

    I'm not saying you're wrong to read the texts this way, but I just don't find it very persuasive. For example, I think RAW straightforwardly allows wish and miracle to release these sorts of magical compulsions. (Though I beg your forgiveness for pointing to a spell which has basically an ink blot at the end when describing what it can do, my only defense is that planar binding seems to be about as dependent on fiat).

    I am more and more persuaded that #2 is probably the correct interpretation. Thanks for your help!
    Last edited by blackwindbears; 2020-11-29 at 07:41 PM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    In game: if you can summon something with Planar Binding and have it do services for you, you can also summon it with Planar Binding and have your Fighter friend kill it while it's stuck in the binding circle. Any creature smart enough to find holes in a contract it made as part of a Planar Binding is also smart enough to realize the consequences of doing so and make life choices that don't directly antagonize people who have demonstrated the ability to kill it.

    Out of game: Planar Binding is supposed to represent a "deal with the devil" type situation (just summoning up an outsider and asking it for help is more Planar Ally). You could write up an actual contract and have the bind-ee try to find holes in it, but stopping the game to have the player and DM make opposed Profession (Lawyer) checks is even worse than using Planar Binding at all. Particularly because it is quite likely that one or both of the parties involved is smarter than the person who is supposed to be playing them.

  18. - Top - End - #18
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    In game: if you can summon something with Planar Binding and have it do services for you, you can also summon it with Planar Binding and have your Fighter friend kill it while it's stuck in the binding circle. Any creature smart enough to find holes in a contract it made as part of a Planar Binding is also smart enough to realize the consequences of doing so and make life choices that don't directly antagonize people who have demonstrated the ability to kill it.

    Out of game: Planar Binding is supposed to represent a "deal with the devil" type situation (just summoning up an outsider and asking it for help is more Planar Ally). You could write up an actual contract and have the bind-ee try to find holes in it, but stopping the game to have the player and DM make opposed Profession (Lawyer) checks is even worse than using Planar Binding at all. Particularly because it is quite likely that one or both of the parties involved is smarter than the person who is supposed to be playing them.
    So it sounds to me like you're arguing more for #1?

    Completely agreed that opposed Profession (lawyer) checks suck. Especially when it so rarely delivers a clear victory. Further DM having to rule on his own checks is horribly unfun for everyone involved. In my view, if the fiend is twisting words, the player should exclaim to the DM that they made a mistake *before* the fiend does anything to act on it.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Out of game: Planar Binding is supposed to represent a "deal with the devil" type situation (just summoning up an outsider and asking it for help is more Planar Ally). You could write up an actual contract and have the bind-ee try to find holes in it, but stopping the game to have the player and DM make opposed Profession (Lawyer) checks is even worse than using Planar Binding at all. Particularly because it is quite likely that one or both of the parties involved is smarter than the person who is supposed to be playing them.
    no its not. planar binding is slavery.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    no its not. planar binding is slavery.
    It's not though. Slavery implies ownership. Planar binding only allows you to compel the creature to perform a stated service, of which, as stated in the spell description, impossible demands and unreasonable commands are never agreed to.

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    In game: if you can summon something with Planar Binding and have it do services for you, you can also summon it with Planar Binding and have your Fighter friend kill it while it's stuck in the binding circle. Any creature smart enough to find holes in a contract it made as part of a Planar Binding is also smart enough to realize the consequences of doing so and make life choices that don't directly antagonize people who have demonstrated the ability to kill it.
    Keep in mind that killing a fiend isn't actually that much of a threat to them, and doing so would actually just make you an enemy that will be free to hunt you down as soon as they reform on their home plane, you would instead be safer keeping them permanently caged up, but even that becomes precarious, since the binding circle only lasts 1 day/level, unless you find some way to make it permanent, like some wondrous architecture binding circles or something like that. But even then, it's a delicate cage that could be broken easily by some mishap like an earthquake.

    Quote Originally Posted by NigelWalmsley View Post
    Out of game: Planar Binding is supposed to represent a "deal with the devil" type situation (just summoning up an outsider and asking it for help is more Planar Ally). You could write up an actual contract and have the bind-ee try to find holes in it, but stopping the game to have the player and DM make opposed Profession (Lawyer) checks is even worse than using Planar Binding at all. Particularly because it is quite likely that one or both of the parties involved is smarter than the person who is supposed to be playing them.
    Planar binding is meant to be dangerous, and honestly, if you're not willing to risk playing with the intricacies of the spell with carefully worded pacts, and deceptive fiends, then you probably just shouldn't use the spell from an OOC perspective, and just use planar ally instead. Not everything has to be perfectly emulated for your 5head 30 int wizard by the way. Sure you may only have a fraction of the intellect of your wizard, but if you're gonna leave everything down to the numbers on your sheet rather than immersing yourself into the game and roleplaying your character, then what are you really even doing playing dnd, there are plenty of video games that let you play based on the stats of your characters rather than rp out the choices and actions of your character.
    Last edited by Crake; 2020-11-30 at 12:54 AM.
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Keep in mind that killing a fiend isn't actually that much of a threat to them, and doing so would actually just make you an enemy that will be free to hunt you down as soon as they reform on their home plane, you would instead be safer keeping them permanently caged up, but even that becomes precarious, since the binding circle only lasts 1 day/level, unless you find some way to make it permanent, like some wondrous architecture binding circles or something like that. But even then, it's a delicate cage that could be broken easily by some mishap like an earthquake.
    Two questions:
    1) What, in your view, compels their obedience to the letter of the agreement after let out of the circle?

    2) Called creatures either *die for reals* (Core) or in the case of devils take 99 years to reform (FC2), on the case of demons reform but likely demoted (FC1), how would they be free to hunt you down?

    Edit: Further, looking at the demons, almost none of them have plane shift. It seems to me that the ability to exact their plan of vengeance depends a lot on top level cosmology questions, like, how well known are portals to a given material plane, how accessible are they? If trivially accessed then it begs the question, why isn't the material plane overrun by demons?

    In all other respects I think your explanation broadly makes sense. The "unreasonable commands" clause seems to be a problem for a hard #2 (most powerful, unbreakable enchantment (compulsion) effect). If a wish won't end it, what could possibly constitute unreasonable?
    Last edited by blackwindbears; 2020-11-30 at 01:04 AM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    Two questions:
    1) What, in your view, compels their obedience to the letter of the agreement after let out of the circle?
    It's a magical pact that they agree to, being bound to their world (hence the planar binding). The planar binding spell facilitates the ability to make the pact, but it is ultimately up to the bound creature to agree. The charisma check is a mix of you forcing your will on the creature, but also how enticing you're able to be, but it is ultimately up to the DM to determine if a bargain is something the creature would consider unreasonable, so the DM always retains veto power to say no to your pact regardless of what you get on your opposed charisma check, but may also do the opposite, where if your request is reasonable enough, he would simply allow the creature to agree without the need to roll a dice.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    2) Called creatures either *die for reals* (Core) or in the case of devils take 99 years to reform (FC2), on the case of demons reform but likely demoted (FC1), how would they be free to hunt you down?

    Edit: Further, looking at the demons, almost none of them have plane shift. It seems to me that the ability to exact their plan of vengeance depends a lot on top level cosmology questions, like, how well known are portals to a given material plane, how accessible are they? If trivially accessed then it begs the question, why isn't the material plane overrun by demons?
    Plane shift isn't the only way onto the material plane. A thrifty demon or devil can manage to find their way through the planes, or possibly find others who they can manipulate or pay for a means to arrive on the material plane. More powerful demons may even have cults of worshippers on the material that they may have as a contingency method or reviving themselves. Limited wish is a mere DC40 sacrifice check (May sound high, but sacrifice bonuses are really easy to boost), and is capable of resurrecting an outsider with no level loss. Many outsiders are also part of a heirarchy, so while you may not get retribution from the outsider themselves, their direct superior may take notice that their underling was killed, and take offense to it.

    And sure, this might not apply to ever outsider you bind, but point is you don't know, unless you've done some research into the specific creature you're binding, but that in and of itself is way more involved than most people seem willing to get, if they aren't even interested in writing out agreements.

    Quote Originally Posted by blackwindbears View Post
    In all other respects I think your explanation broadly makes sense. The "unreasonable commands" clause seems to be a problem for a hard #2 (most powerful, unbreakable enchantment (compulsion) effect). If a wish won't end it, what could possibly constitute unreasonable?
    Unreasonable is in the eyes of the beholder. This is also where the ability for subversion becomes an actual factor, because, especially if the bound creature is hostile, the opportunity for subversion is in fact what may make an otherwise unreasonable command something they might agree to.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    It's a magical pact that they agree to, being bound to their world (hence the planar binding). The planar binding spell facilitates the ability to make the pact, but it is ultimately up to the bound creature to agree. The charisma check is a mix of you forcing your will on the creature, but also how enticing you're able to be, but it is ultimately up to the DM to determine if a bargain is something the creature would consider unreasonable, so the DM always retains veto power to say no to your pact regardless of what you get on your opposed charisma check, but may also do the opposite, where if your request is reasonable enough, he would simply allow the creature to agree without the need to roll a dice.
    whisper demon agreed to be a lichs slave to the point of receiving friendly fire that possibly leads to its death. so the bar is very very very low unless you house rule.

    oh and elemental accepting eternal bondage.
    Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-11-30 at 02:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    As it's written, it doesn't make any sense to consider a deal that's simply unfair to be an "unreasonable command":
    Quote Originally Posted by Lesser Planar Binding
    You can attempt to compel the creature to perform a service by describing the service and perhaps offering some sort of reward. You make a Charisma check opposed by the creature’s Charisma check. The check is assigned a bonus of +0 to +6 based on the nature of the service and the reward.
    If the creature could simply reject any deal that wasn't good enough, this whole section is meaningless. RAW, it really looks like the only difference between "Pose for a painting for a few hours, and in exchange you get a copy of the painting and a big bag of diamonds" and "Go work in the acid mines for a week, no payment" is that the latter get a +0 on the Charisma check and the former might get as high as +6.

    So what is an "unreasonable command"? I'd consider it to include "obviously self-destructive orders", as barred by most mind-control spells, and also things seriously against the being's nature, like telling an Archon to help plunge a fairly nice city into violent anarchy.


    Now if I was rewriting the spell? I'd probably say that there are degrees:
    1) Would do it for free
    2) Would do it for minor/moderate payment (not necessarily in gold)
    3) Would do it for major payment
    4) Would only do it for something big - life-changing payment, saving themselves or someone very important, to accomplish a major goal, etc
    5) Would never do it

    Based on what you're asking and the nature of the being, determine which category it falls into. You can make a deal based on that with no compulsion needed, and the spell will enforce it on both parties. Or, you can try the Charisma check to shift it a step lower (or maybe multiple steps with a high enough margin?), with the downside that the bound creature now probably hates you and will try to subvert the orders if it can.


    The biggest issue with both this and Planar Ally is that often it makes logical sense for an outsider to help for free and even bring friends, when the stakes are high enough. An ancient gate to the abyss threatens to crack open and leave the demons free entry to the prime material, and you call an Astral Deva for assistance. Is it really going to refuse if you don't have anything to offer, or is it going to say "Not today, demon cultists!" and go in there smiting, maybe even call in a bunch of its friends to help?

    It's the "Why doesn't Elminster solve this problem, if it really threatens the whole world?" issue, except worse because there are a large, possibly infinite, number of these outsiders.

    On the gripping hand, Goku's greatest weapon did turn out to be snitching, so maybe that's appropriate.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-11-30 at 02:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    If the creature could simply reject any deal that wasn't good enough, this whole section is meaningless. RAW, it really looks like the only difference between "Pose for a painting for a few hours, and in exchange you get a copy of the painting and a big bag of diamonds" and "Go work in the acid mines for a week, no payment" is that the latter get a +0 on the Charisma check and the former might get as high as +6.
    Not true. The fact that the creature is compelled to follow through with the agreement means that it can't agree, then back out later. If it agrees, it is compelled to carry out the agreement, even if it decides to change its mind later. It essentially acts as a binding agreement (hint hint) that the creature cannot break.

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    whisper demon agreed to be a lichs slave to the point of receiving friendly fire that possibly leads to its death. so the bar is very very very low unless you house rule.
    The issue with this statement is that we don't know the exact terms of the service in question, and the encounter in question is very vague on the matter, it merely says that the lich used planar binding to bind the demon, and doesn't go into any details, because they don't actually matter for the encounter itself.

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    oh and elemental accepting eternal bondage.
    Yeah, but elementals are stupid, and are essentially the cattle of the planes, so that's not exactly surprising. That being said, is there any actual material that states that the eternal bondage of elementals happened specifically through a planar binding? The spell may have been used to call the elementals, but from there elementals are rather easily subdued and bound through other means. (I take it you're referring to eberron stuff here).

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    The biggest issue with both this and Planar Ally is that often it makes logical sense for an outsider to help for free and even bring friends, when the stakes are high enough. An ancient gate to the abyss threatens to crack open and leave the demons free entry to the prime material, and you call an Astral Deva for assistance. Is it really going to refuse if you don't have anything to offer, or is it going to say "Not today, demon cultists!" and go in there smiting, maybe even call in a bunch of its friends to help?
    Well, yes, you see, there's nothing stopping you from using planar binding merely as a means of gaining a contact, or even as a transportation spell. I've had players do that all the time, use planar binding to summon an angel, break the magical circle trapping them, and then request help through actually just roleplaying it out. But the thing is, using the spell that way just plucks a random creature from the cosmos, and sometimes those creatures are in the middle of something important, something they deem more important than whatever your current issue is.

    Now, of course, if you have a world ending event, then lets be honest, those higher powers should ALREADY be involved.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crake View Post
    Not true. The fact that the creature is compelled to follow through with the agreement means that it can't agree, then back out later. If it agrees, it is compelled to carry out the agreement, even if it decides to change its mind later. It essentially acts as a binding agreement (hint hint) that the creature cannot break.
    And how does that square with the part about getting a +0 to +6 bonus on the Charisma check based on the task and reward (which you "perhaps" offer or perhaps not)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lesser Planar Binding
    If the creature wins the opposed check, it refuses service.
    If the creature can simply veto any deal it doesn't like, then why is it making a check to refuse service? If it doesn't want to serve under any circumstances, it can simply decide any possible deal you offer is "unreasonable".

    Also, more circumstantial, but opposed Charisma checks are not how normal negotiations work. So it's not like you're just putting them in a circle and then convincing them as you would anyone else.
    Last edited by icefractal; 2020-11-30 at 03:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by gogogome View Post
    None. Planar Binding is not an enchantment effect. Its not a compulsion effect because it doesn't have the compulsion tag. It's not a mind-affecting effect because it doesn't have the mind-affecting tag.
    Even Mindr*pe (which you used for comparison) is supposed to be reversible by Miracle or Wish, saying that Planar Binding is not is making that relatively early spell absurdly powerful.

    Also if we are talking about Lesser Planar Binding I do not see what prevents Break Enchantment from "reversing an instantaneous effect" as the text of Break Enchanrment says.

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by newguydude1 View Post
    whisper demon agreed to be a lichs slave to the point of receiving friendly fire that possibly leads to its death. so the bar is very very very low unless you house rule.

    oh and elemental accepting eternal bondage.
    These are, as I understand, drawn from examples, not rules text.

    Even if they are rules, they're from optional supplements, not the core books, so there's no guarantee that they'll be in play in any given campaign.

    Even if they are in play in a given campaign, the primary source rule means that they can't override the actual text of the planar binding spell, so if the DM considers them to do so then they are invalid.
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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    There are reasons that the planar binding line are arguably the strongest spells in existence, and a large part of that is that there is no escape once they agree until the task is done. Once the agreement is done that's it. Full stop.

    You have an outsider slave for a certain amount time while you finish whatever. You can also very easily make a permanent circle and trap them forever, impotent and weakening until they agree, lower stats with any number of means or just threaten to kill them forever. Wish barring fiat does not free them. Travelling through time to make it so they do not ever agree might, but that also might create a divergent timeline and anything involving time gets messy.

    And the their boss is mad agreement is easily sidestepped by just binding devils. No retribution from the higher ups. Do not be so weak in the future os their reaction.

    The spell makes them obey once they fail their charisma check, possibly once they fail the origional will save if the binder is smart, it's just a matter of time.

    To be fair, you need at least 1 magic circle, maybe 2 if you are worried, possibly dimensional anchor, then you check SR, then will save, then charisma check. That's a lot of hoops to jump though.

    First you overcome their native resistance to magic by being stronger caster. Then you overpower their mind and will forcing them to come to you regardless of anything else, then you persuade them by sheer force of personality. If they could seek retribution you have already proven you are better and stronger, so would they risk permanent death? Demotion? Displeasing their superiors?

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    Default Re: Why don't Planar Bound Outsiders Cheat?

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    And how does that square with the part about getting a +0 to +6 bonus on the Charisma check based on the task and reward (which you "perhaps" offer or perhaps not)?

    If the creature can simply veto any deal it doesn't like, then why is it making a check to refuse service? If it doesn't want to serve under any circumstances, it can simply decide any possible deal you offer is "unreasonable".

    Also, more circumstantial, but opposed Charisma checks are not how normal negotiations work. So it's not like you're just putting them in a circle and then convincing them as you would anyone else.
    There are times when an offer would not be amicable, but may still be within the realms of reasonable, and you need to consider the hostile nature of the spell. The charisma check, and it's bonuses represent a level of negotiation, hence why sweeter deals give you a bonus.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
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