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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Devil

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Animate Dead, Tiny Servant and Animate Objects are mutually exclusive unless you only intend on giving orders to one of them.
    This means we only need to compare the DPR of one of them to the same level Shadow Blade on a Bladesinger, which one do you prefer?
    Technically you can cheat the action economy here due to the concept of "General Command". For example you can order the skeletons to always attack the target of your other spells, or the most recently attacked enemy, or any hostile they see in X feet prioritizing from their left to their right. That way you have the bonus action free to use animate objects and tiny servants and again you can issue general commands.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    BlueWizardGirl

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Animate Dead, Tiny Servant, and Animate Objects are mutually exclusive unless you only intend on giving orders to one of them and leave the rest just standing there (or in Animate Dead/Object's case, "defend itself against Hostile creatures" which is open to interpretation).
    This means we only need to compare the DPR of one of them to the same level Shadow Blade on a Bladesinger, which one do you prefer?

    Just for the sake of discussion:
    Animate Objects DPR (Tiny Objects): 47/61
    Bladesinger 5th-level Shadow Blade DPR: 35/55

    However, the big caveat about Animate Objects is that it is highly susceptible to AoE. A single Fireball can easily wipe out half of the tiny objects and thus half its DPR.
    Does animate objects DPR include the damage from attack actions that the blade singer is taking? Given that it is a bonus action to command so you can still take actions to attack.
    Last edited by Witty Username; 2020-11-27 at 05:08 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    Technically you can cheat the action economy here due to the concept of "General Command". For example you can order the skeletons to always attack the target of your other spells, or the most recently attacked enemy, or any hostile they see in X feet prioritizing from their left to their right. That way you have the bonus action free to use animate objects and tiny servants and again you can issue general commands.
    Even if your DM would allow that, that's something the Bladesinger with Shadowblade can also do, so it doesn't really change the discussion here. Thanks for the info, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Witty Username View Post
    Does animate objects DPR include the damage from attack actions that the blade singer is taking? Given that it is a bonus action to command so you can still take actions to attack.
    It actually does not, thank you for reminding me!
    However, in my mind, this comparison is basically between a Bladesinger and any other Wizard trying to do single-target damage, not the Bladesinger with Shadowblade versus a Bladesinger with Animate Objects, though that would also be interesting.
    Thus, it would be correct to add Firebolt DPR to the Animate Objects comparison, because in both examples the only resource being used is a 5th level spell. Firebolt DPR at level 11 is 13/18 (vs AC 15, as all DPR numbers so far).
    If you're curious though, Bladesinger DPR with a Rapier is 16/25.
    I'm an optimizer, so when I say something is good, that means I think that it's powerful relative to the strongest options the system offers from a mechanical standpoint.
    When I say something is bad, I do not mean that is not viable or that you shouldn't play it, only that it isn't satisfactory for high optimization tables.

    I use LudicSavant's and AureusFulgen's DPR Calculator to calculate DPR.
    My builds can be found at BendKing's Baffling Builds Bundle.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Even if your DM would allow that, that's something the Bladesinger with Shadowblade can also do, so it doesn't really change the discussion here. Thanks for the info, though.



    It actually does not, thank you for reminding me!
    However, in my mind, this comparison is basically between a Bladesinger and any other Wizard trying to do single-target damage, not the Bladesinger with Shadowblade versus a Bladesinger with Animate Objects, though that would also be interesting.
    Thus, it would be correct to add Firebolt DPR to the Animate Objects comparison, because in both examples the only resource being used is a 5th level spell. Firebolt DPR at level 11 is 13/18 (vs AC 15, as all DPR numbers so far).
    If you're curious though, Bladesinger DPR with a Rapier is 16/25.
    Bladesinger with animate objects should do better than that because they can sub one of the attacks for a cantrip. The downside is that they are more at risk of losing concentration as the other wizards will likely be nowhere near where the action is.

    However, my point was to demonstrate that having good nova DPR is not unique to Bladesinger, all wizards have good nova DPR with the correct spell selection.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Bladesinger with animate objects should do better than that because they can sub one of the attacks for a cantrip. The downside is that they are more at risk of losing concentration as the other wizards will likely be nowhere near where the action is.

    However, my point was to demonstrate that having good nova DPR is not unique to Bladesinger, all wizards have good nova DPR with the correct spell selection.
    The damage I've calculated was with subbing one of the attacks with Booming Blade, but without Animate Objects DPR.

    To recap:
    Bladesinger 5th-level Shadow Blade DPR: 35/55
    Bladesinger Animate Objects DPR: 16/25 + 47/61 = 63/86
    Any Wizard Animate Objects DPR: 13/18 + 47/61 = 60/79

    I concede that all wizards have good nova DPR with Animate Objects (which is a somewhat broken spell with tiny objects, but that is beside the point), but I still think Bladesinger's does it better with upcasted Shadow Blade since Animate Objects is extremely susceptible to AoE damage.
    However, I admit it is not as clear cut as I had originally thought, because I did not consider how high the DPR of Animate Objects is (since I usually don't allow minionmancy spells at my table).
    Last edited by bendking; 2020-11-28 at 10:15 AM.
    I'm an optimizer, so when I say something is good, that means I think that it's powerful relative to the strongest options the system offers from a mechanical standpoint.
    When I say something is bad, I do not mean that is not viable or that you shouldn't play it, only that it isn't satisfactory for high optimization tables.

    I use LudicSavant's and AureusFulgen's DPR Calculator to calculate DPR.
    My builds can be found at BendKing's Baffling Builds Bundle.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    Even if your DM would allow that, that's something the Bladesinger with Shadowblade can also do, so it doesn't really change the discussion here. Thanks for the info, though.
    It's part of the spell description so most DMs are inclined to allow it if they are ok with some limited minionmancy. I generally dislike having to roll many times but if you noticed, my examples were about focus firing, which is easily resolved with electronic dice. Of course stacking animate dead, animate objects and tiny servants can become tedious. I kind of want to move away from animate objects entirely with the new Tasha's summon spells but it's such a strong spell..

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    It's part of the spell description so most DMs are inclined to allow it if they are ok with some limited minionmancy. I generally dislike having to roll many times but if you noticed, my examples were about focus firing, which is easily resolved with electronic dice. Of course stacking animate dead, animate objects and tiny servants can become tedious. I kind of want to move away from animate objects entirely with the new Tasha's summon spells but it's such a strong spell..
    If summon spells are too cumbersome because of all the rolls, you can ask your DM to speed them up by using the Handling Mobs rule in the DMG on page 250.

    You certainly lose some nuance in the attacks, but its much quicker and easier without having to choose not to use a spell you like just for the sake of speed.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    It's part of the spell description so most DMs are inclined to allow it if they are ok with some limited minionmancy. I generally dislike having to roll many times but if you noticed, my examples were about focus firing, which is easily resolved with electronic dice. Of course stacking animate dead, animate objects and tiny servants can become tedious.
    I understand. I personally am not a fan of minionmancy in 5e and find it to be overtuned in a lot of cases, so I prefer to keep it out of my games.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gtdead View Post
    I kind of want to move away from animate objects entirely with the new Tasha's summon spells but it's such a strong spell..
    It's ridiculously strong, especially with stuff like Crusader's Mantle for extra cheese. The PHB summoning spells are all quite powerful, but Animate Objects stands as one of the most ludicrous. But of course, if your DM knows you're going to use it and wants to counter you, all he needs is a single spell-caster with Fireball/Cone of Cold to rain on your parade, which is a weakness that Summon Greater Demon or Tasha's summoning spells don't have.
    I'm an optimizer, so when I say something is good, that means I think that it's powerful relative to the strongest options the system offers from a mechanical standpoint.
    When I say something is bad, I do not mean that is not viable or that you shouldn't play it, only that it isn't satisfactory for high optimization tables.

    I use LudicSavant's and AureusFulgen's DPR Calculator to calculate DPR.
    My builds can be found at BendKing's Baffling Builds Bundle.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    It's ridiculously strong, especially with stuff like Crusader's Mantle for extra cheese. The PHB summoning spells are all quite powerful, but Animate Objects stands as one of the most ludicrous. But of course, if your DM knows you're going to use it and wants to counter you, all he needs is a single spell-caster with Fireball/Cone of Cold to rain on your parade, which is a weakness that Summon Greater Demon or Tasha's summoning spells don't have.
    If you're a DM and you happen to have trouble with Animate Objects, there's a few things you should be aware of to help combat.

    Unlike other minionmancy spells, the objects don't get to go immediately once they're summoned. They aren't separated in initiative, either. They all go at the exact same time with one initiative roll. Its entirely possible for a creature to end the caster's concentration before the objects can even act.

    Don't forget, when your caster gets Animate Objects, they're big boys now. They can handle much greater than Guard Captains. In fact, Archmages are only a Hard encounter against 9th level characters.

    You're not going to push them if you don't actually provide them a challenge. They can even start to handle Adult Dragons as a barely deadly encounter. They're not My Little Players anymore, don't coddle them at these levels.

    They also have the glaring weakness of having -4 wisdom saves and +0 con saves, which are very frequent saves. Getting hit with an effect that frightens nearby enemies on Wisdom can seriously mess with your creatures.

    Finally, IIRC, Animate Objects don't do magical BPS. They themselves are magical but their attacks aren't fueled by magic. If they're facing a creature with BPS resistance or immunity, they'll have a hard time.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Asisreo1 View Post

    Finally, IIRC, Animate Objects don't do magical BPS. They themselves are magical but their attacks aren't fueled by magic. If they're facing a creature with BPS resistance or immunity, they'll have a hard time.
    Yeah that’s how I use to play it but I’m not sure anymore with recent clarification of what is considered magic damage. Essentially any damage done by spells are considered magical. If that’s the case animate objects would certainly qualify.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Gignere View Post
    Yeah that’s how I use to play it but I’m not sure anymore with recent clarification of what is considered magic damage. Essentially any damage done by spells are considered magical. If that’s the case animate objects would certainly qualify.
    I don't want to deviate too far from the bladesinger discussion but I'll give my reasoning as to why I think Animate Object's attacks are not magical.

    It can be up to DM adjudication but I think if you process it slowly, it becomes evident that Animate Objects attacks are nonmagical, and we'll use the Sage Advice Compendium's series of questions.

    Is it a Magic Item? No. Clearly they're creatures.

    Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that's mentioned in its description? Animate Objects is a spell, but the attacks they make are not spells and do not confer a spell's effect.

    Is it a spell attack? No. It clarifies that it is a weapon attack.

    Is it fueled by the use of a spell slot? By "it," it refers to the attack. The attack itself doesn't require a spell slot to activate. Its true that the attack couldn't happen without the spell slot, but thats only by proxy. Take, for example, a Druid polymorphed into a Giant Spider. If it restrains a target with the Web attack, would it be dispellable? I'm sure it can't be.

    Does its description say its magical? No.

    So I believe its a nonmagical attack brought about by magical entities. The 4th question has some swing to it but I hope it makes sense.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Asisreo1 View Post
    I don't want to deviate too far from the bladesinger discussion but I'll give my reasoning as to why I think Animate Object's attacks are not magical.

    It can be up to DM adjudication but I think if you process it slowly, it becomes evident that Animate Objects attacks are nonmagical, and we'll use the Sage Advice Compendium's series of questions.

    Is it a Magic Item? No. Clearly they're creatures.

    Is it a spell? Or does it let you create the effects of a spell that's mentioned in its description? Animate Objects is a spell, but the attacks they make are not spells and do not confer a spell's effect.

    Is it a spell attack? No. It clarifies that it is a weapon attack.

    Is it fueled by the use of a spell slot? By "it," it refers to the attack. The attack itself doesn't require a spell slot to activate. Its true that the attack couldn't happen without the spell slot, but thats only by proxy. Take, for example, a Druid polymorphed into a Giant Spider. If it restrains a target with the Web attack, would it be dispellable? I'm sure it can't be.

    Does its description say its magical? No.

    So I believe its a nonmagical attack brought about by magical entities. The 4th question has some swing to it but I hope it makes sense.
    They are definitely not magical attacks, or it would say so in their stat block, like with Pit Fiends and such.

    I do make my Tiny Servants and AO from silver coins, so they at least do full damage to Lycanthropes and Devils.
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilbron View Post
    They are definitely not magical attacks, or it would say so in their stat block, like with Pit Fiends and such.

    I do make my Tiny Servants and AO from silver coins, so they at least do full damage to Lycanthropes and Devils.
    I like to carry different types of bolts and animate those, like adamantine bolts and silver bolts. Just to get around some resistance. One thing I wanted to try but never got the chance is what if you dipped the objects in poison?

  14. - Top - End - #44

    Default Re: D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Review and Rating Series: The Bladesinger

    Quote Originally Posted by bendking View Post
    It's ridiculously strong, especially with stuff like Crusader's Mantle for extra cheese. The PHB summoning spells are all quite powerful, but Animate Objects stands as one of the most ludicrous. But of course, if your DM knows you're going to use it and wants to counter you, all he needs is a single spell-caster with Fireball/Cone of Cold to rain on your parade, which is a weakness that Summon Greater Demon or Tasha's summoning spells don't have.
    Aside from the fact that Fireball won't necessarily kill an animated Tiny object, let's also highlight that Animate Objects can be used to animate Medium, Large or Huge objects as well, giving out a profile similar to one of the Tasha'a spells. You can even mix them: animate one 80 HP Huge object and two 25 HP Tiny ones. Cone of Cold can probably kill the Tiny ones but not the Huge one.

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