psycarnum infusion + midnight metamagic

[Silent Alarm]

if we have two "valid" interpretations, and one makes over half the feats unusable, which of the two "valid" interpretations is most likely to be the correct interpretation?

You would have two valid interpretations. The consequences of one "thing" over another "thing" doesn't somehow negate the reality that both "thing" and "thing" are valid.

The point remains: Your GM has to adjudicate the rules in this regards if he is willing to accept your interpretation that it takes a free action to do, which if I must add is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the rules (not RAW though), or the RAW that it takes at minimum a standard action to activate a single psionic feat, thus making it impossible to benefit from this without access to a second standard action.

For what it is worth, I would not blame your GM for taking the path of least resistance on this one, as this would almost assuredly never come up in any real game that isn't just a TO session.

[ExLibrisMortis]

The general rules on psionic feats state that expending your psionic focus is not an action; it is part of the action that the psionic feat you're using applies to. In the case of Psycarnum Infusion, that is a bit odd, since there's not really an action for it to be part of (a lot of soulmeld/feat benefits are passive, AC bonuses and the like). However, I would still say that the rule for psionic feats overrides the rule for supernatural abilities, being a bit more specific, and expending focus is not an action in itself. It could be part of casting the spell that you use Midnight Metamagic on, perhaps?

I do agree that this combo should be mentioned more often. What's holding it back is, perhaps, what InvisibleBison mentioned: essentia capacity is quite low early on, and you need to put quite a few pieces together: psionic focus, the metamagic feats you're using, the feats for the combo itself, expanded capacity, metamagic reduction, the works. It basically takes all your feats to get the whole thing running at a reasonable level.

For example, unlimited Persistomancy at level 12 requires eight feats: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psicarnum Infusion, Wild Talent, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, and Improved Essentia Capacity. Of course, you can replace a few of these with class levels, so a build along the lines of incarnate 4/psychic warrior 1/ur-priest 7 "only" needs six feats (plus the psywar bonus feat). A silverbrow human can just about do that without flaws, so it's not that crazy, but it does limit you to Ur-Priest (or losing a lot of casting). Persistomancy is so powerful that it's practically always worth it, but you really are burning a lot of feats on this.

Free Twinning at ECL 12 also requires a lot of feats, seven in this case: any metamagic feat, Twin Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psicarnum Infusion, Wild Talent, Improved Essentia Capacity or Practical Metamagic, and Psionic Meditation. The latter is required to regain focus as a move action, which is really helpful if you want to use Psicarnum Infusion in combat (I assume you want to Twin blasting spells several times per encounter). Expanding your focus infrastructure allows you to nova a bit more (especially with arcane spellsurge), but that does requires more feats (Psicrystal Affinity and Psicrystal Containment).

You could modify the second example to get free Empower + Maximize, as long as your essentia capacity equals the total cost of those feats together. Midnight Metamagic isn't clear on whether you can enhance a single spell with multiple metamagic feats (multiple spells with different feats is allowed). I think the feat works a little more cleanly if you do allow it (in that selecting one feat+spell pairing has no influence on other feat+spell pairings), but it's a question for the table, I suppose.

Overall, a really cool combo, but one requiring serious investment. Something to build a character around, not a loose feat to pick up with your last slot.


*Either Improved Essentia Capacity or Easy Metamagic. Dropping Easy Metamagic gets rid of the one bit of Dragon Magazine content, so that potentially makes the combo suitable for source-restricted tables (or Iron Chef).

[newguydude1]

For example, unlimited Persistomancy at level 12 requires eight feats: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Midnight Metamagic, Psicarnum Infusion, Wild Talent, Practical Metamagic, Easy Metamagic, and Improved Essentia Capacity.

this is wrong.

Each spell to be affected requires the investment of a number of essentia equal to the normal spell level adjustment required by the metamagic feat

by raw you cant use other metamagic reducers with midnight metamagic.

[ExLibrisMortis]

this is wrong.



by raw you cant use other metamagic reducers with midnight metamagic.

That depends on whether you interpret "normal" to be an absolute reference to the cost of the metamagic feat as laid out in its description, or a relative reference to the situation before the application of Midnight Metamagic. I tend to interpret all references to "normal" as being relative to the non-feat situation, i.e. the second. After all, to a character with Practical Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the normal cost for Persistent Spell is +5, and it would take an exceptional situation to make it cost +6 (i.e. the feat were somehow suppressed, or metamagic was more expensive on the plane they were on).

[newguydude1]

That depends on whether you interpret "normal" to be an absolute reference to the cost of the metamagic feat as laid out in its description, or a relative reference to the situation before the application of Midnight Metamagic. I tend to interpret all references to "normal" as being relative to the non-feat situation, i.e. the second. After all, to a character with Practical Metamagic (Persistent Spell), the normal cost for Persistent Spell is +5, and it would take an exceptional situation to make it cost +6 (i.e. the feat were somehow suppressed, or metamagic was more expensive on the plane they were on).

for stacking metamagic yeah, like the normal duration of a persistent divine favor is 24 hours. but this isnt order of operations of metamagic. there isnt an "easy practical metamagic school focus divine favor".

in fact all of these metamagic reducers are applied at the moment of start of casting. where as midnight metamagic is at the start of the day, nonspontaneously.

[ExLibrisMortis]

for stacking metamagic yeah, like the normal duration of a persistent divine favor is 24 hours. but this isnt order of operations of metamagic. there isnt an "easy practical metamagic school focus divine favor".

in fact all of these metamagic reducers are applied at the moment of start of casting. where as midnight metamagic is at the start of the day, nonspontaneously.

I'm not sure what you mean here. The in-universe timing of an ability isn't relevant to order of application or the interpretation of "normal spell level adjustment".

[newguydude1]

I'm not sure what you mean here. The in-universe timing of an ability isn't relevant to order of application or the interpretation of "normal spell level adjustment".

midnight metamagic - invested when your not casting a spell
practical metamagic - applied when you apply a metamagic to a spell being spontaneously

you cant apply practical metamagic when your choosing spells for midnight metamagic. because your not casting anything.
you cant apply midnight metamagic when your casting practical metamagic.

the two can never work together.

[ExLibrisMortis]

midnight metamagic - invested when your not casting a spell
practical metamagic - applied when you apply a metamagic to a spell being spontaneously

you cant apply practical metamagic when your choosing spells for midnight metamagic. because your not casting anything.
you cant apply midnight metamagic when your casting practical metamagic.

the two can never work together.

Right, I see what you mean.

When using Midnight Metamagic + Practical Metamagic, you declare the investing (or the use of Psycarnum Infusion), and then have to work out what the feat accomplishes (and for what essentia cost). You are saying that Practical Metamagic does not apply here, since it specifies "when applying the chosen metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell", and you are not doing that at that moment (you're investing essentia or using Psycarnum Infusion). Only when you are actually casting the spell--using Midnight Metamagic or not--does Practical Metamagic apply, leading to the funny consequence that you have one more essentia invested than the cost of applying the feat at that time (which doesn't matter at all, it's just funny to note).

Now, in my opinion, the "normal" cost of applying a metamagic feat with Practical Metamagic applied to it is still the cost after Practical Metamagic is applied, since the "normal" cost of applying it is the cost applied when casting a spell (as opposed to when using Divine Metamagic or something else), which automatically includes Practical Metamagic. In a sense, Midnight Metamagic can "look up" the cost of applying a metamagic feat for a specific character, once all abilities are applied. Of course, for an Ultimate Magus (say), that would mean Midnight Metamagic would be cheaper on a prepared spell because the cost was reduced for a spontaneous spell, but that's not particularly strange. It reminds me of using a CL 20 consumptive field (cast as cleric spell) to boost the CL of one's first-level wizard casting. A first-level wizard can't get +10 CL out of consumptive field (or cast it at all, for that matter), but the boost still applies.

Even if you don't allow that reading, I don't think there's a problem. Midnight Metamagic says: "Once per day, you can invest essentia into this feat and choose one or more spells that you know (and have prepared, if you prepare spells) to apply the effect of a metamagic feat that you know [...] The next time you cast that spell, the spell gains the effect of that metamagic feat". Note that Midnight Metamagic explicitly says that it is applying the metamagic feat as part of the investing, and the spell merely "gains the effect" when cast. So Practical Metamagic does apply at the critical point of investment, not at the time of casting. It does lead to the funny consequence that you have a metamagic feat applied to a spontaneous spell you haven't cast yet, but I can live with that.

[Darg]

When applying the chosen metamagic feat to a spontaneously cast spell

As you said, you wouldn't be applying practical metamagic on a spontaneously cast spell. This contradicts the benefit text of practical metamagic. Personally, I think it's a little petty to not allow it since PI + MM combo is allowed already. Then again RAW is always petty and only ever helpful when you can find something to point out that the DM is being pettier.

[ExLibrisMortis]

As you said, you wouldn't be applying practical metamagic on a spontaneously cast spell. This contradicts the benefit text of practical metamagic. Personally, I think it's a little petty to not allow it since PI + MM combo is allowed already. Then again RAW is always petty and only ever helpful when you can find something to point out that the DM is being pettier.

Hmm, point. In that case, you need to use the reading that "normal" is relative (functioning like the "normal" text that some feats have), or establish a ruling/interpretation/houserule with the DM to that effect. I absolutely agree with you; "petty" is exactly the word for not allowing this to work, but RAW doesn't care about out feelings .

Interestingly, Easy Metamagic has the same problem ("when preparing or casting a spell modified by that feat").
Improved Metamagic (Incantatrix 10) does not have this problem ("when she uses a metamagic feat").
Cloak of Mysteries (Dweomerkeeper 10) doesn't have this problem either ("whenever applying a metamagic feat").
Adroit Casting (Halruaan Elder 1, 4, 7, 10) sort of has it ("The cost in increased level of spell slots to use that metamagic feat is now permanently reduced by one level"). Might not affect alternate costs. Then again, other costs are based on the increased spell slot cost, so Adroit Casting should carry over.


Can I just say I hate the stupid roundabout ways of phrasing used? Would it really have hurt them to (1) settle on a standard phrasing, (2) properly define "metamagic cost" in general, and (3) phrase all these abilities as "Benefit: The metamagic cost for one feat of your choice is reduced by 1, to a minimum of 1". Saves everyone a lot of headaches.

[Darg]

I feel like I wish they released supplements that had author commentary on the choices they made or the intent behind how they designed something. They do it with movies, I'd think it would be easier with written content.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I feel like I wish they released supplements that had author commentary on the choices they made or the intent behind how they designed something. They do it with movies, I'd think it would be easier with written content.

Absolutely agreed, that would be so nice. I guess dev blogs weren't standard yet at the time, but there could've been some design principles in the DMG, for homebrewing purposes if nothing else, and then individual splatbooks could reference those and talk about how the principles influenced the current splatbook.

[illyahr]

The general rules on psionic feats state that expending your psionic focus is not an action; it is part of the action that the psionic feat you're using applies to. In the case of Psycarnum Infusion, that is a bit odd, since there's not really an action for it to be part of (a lot of soulmeld/feat benefits are passive, AC bonuses and the like). However, I would still say that the rule for psionic feats overrides the rule for supernatural abilities, being a bit more specific, and expending focus is not an action in itself. It could be part of casting the spell that you use Midnight Metamagic on, perhaps?[/SIZE]

MoI states that investing essentia is a free action, so expending psionic focus to "invest" in Psycarnum Infusion is a free action. At least as far as my knowledge goes.