Final Thoughts on 5e

[Droppeddead]

YEAH! Lets go for another round of pencil pushers & bureaucrats, my friends! :)

Exactly. If that's what it takes to keep your players in line. ;)

[Sigreid]

If you can find it, you may enjoy RuneQuest more. I really enjoy it anyway, and it's not as forgiving as 5e

[Kurt Kurageous]

I blame your DM(s). They didn't:

Try low magic. Only one player can be a caster, others only 1/4 caster (arcane trickster). Cuts down on the time spent in combat adjudicating magic!

Try gritty.

Try limiting races. Try reskinning races as humans, keeping the racemods. Half-orc as Scottish Highlander. Trade off super powers for proficiency.

Try NOT always following the CR guidelines and just throwing monsters with 1.5, 2, 3x as many HP as the party. It's so hard to die, why not just get close though, once and awhile?

Keep it simple. Stop buying the new thing. Let it sink or swim on its own. These aint Beanie Babies! Ignore the noise.

Yes, I know, nobody's gonna read this...

I have NO interest in TCoE because, as a DM, its just more rules I have to be aware of. Never had an artificer, arcane archer, or any other of these new "where in the world is this a thing and why do we need a new archetype?"

We have fun first and foremost. I got very close to quitting a few months back for most of the reason the OP stated. This is not Settlers of Cataan that requires new stuff just to try and keep it fresh. It's fresh because each character you create is (or should be) different in some way, and it interacts

[KorvinStarmast]

I have NO interest in TCoE because, as a DM, its just more rules I have to be aware of. Never had an artificer, arcane archer, or any other of these new "where in the world is this a thing and why do we need a new archetype?"

We don't. And they are optional.

This is not Settlers of Cataan that requires new stuff just to try and keep it fresh. It's fresh because each character you create is (or should be) different in some way, and it interacts

I tend to see it similarly.

[Willie the Duck]

Try limiting races. Try reskinning races as humans, keeping the racemods. Half-orc as Scottish Highlander. Trade off super powers for proficiency.

At first glance I read this as, "Half-orc as Scottish Highlander. Trade off super powers for profanity" and that definitely changed my interpretation of your point.

I have NO interest in TCoE because, as a DM, its just more rules I have to be aware of. Never had an artificer, arcane archer, or any other of these new "where in the world is this a thing and why do we need a new archetype?"

I kind of like some of the feats (Shadow and Fey touched, in particular, seem to be a good model for some new ones I am making myself). However, overall I think they are at the point of looking for thematic justifications to wrap around mechanical bits and bobs (I'm still not sure what a twilight cleric is supposed to represent, but I'm pretty sure one of the existing domains would have worked if someone had wanted one). While I keep hoping that a new book might dedicate itself to solving systematic gaps in the system (puzzles and parley systems would be included I suppose, so I applaud that effort, if not the output), but in general I think they are trending towards the 3e model of just new lists of charop options.

[Amechra]

I blame your DM(s). They didn't:

While they are partially to blame, I put that fault squarely on 5e's lackluster DMing advice. In my mind, this is offloading fault from the developers onto the consumers, which is... yeah, not a fan.

My overall issue isn't "Oh, I have to buy Tasha's to get the next best thing", it's "This game has some fundamental design choices that I don't like all that much. This newest release chooses to double-down on those design choices in a way that makes it very clear that I am not part of their intended audience."

Given that a) we seem to have similar tastes/thoughts/issues and also b) that I don't know many other RPG systems, I would be really interested in hearing what your preference would be to run?

It depends on exactly what you're looking for. Right now, my interests are drifting away from straight D&D-style fantasy stuff to other genres. A few of the games I'm interested in playing/running at the moment:

1) Masks - This is a PbtA game about playing teenage superheroes. The different playbooks (read: classes) are themed around specific types of stories, rather than their in-world powers - so, for example, one player might be playing the Janus (where both your mundane life and your hero life are fighting for your attention) while another person is playing the Protege (where you're basically Robin trying to figure out whether or not you're just mini-Batman). The most interesting part is that your stats aren't fixed - they're designed around your self-image, and other people can try to permanently push your stats up or down. I've had a ton of fun with this game before despite not really having much love for superheros in general.

2) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e - This is the one "straight" fantasy game I'm looking into. Mostly because of the really good Fatal and Friends reviews/readthroughs of the books (be forewarned: there's a bit of bad language). I'm particularly enamored by the "career" system - long story short, it's a class system designed from the bottom-up for multiclassing. It just seems like a class act all around.

3. Urban Jungle - It's a film noir game with a surprisingly novel damage system. Basically, when someone hits you, you get to roll to reduce the damage. If you don't reduce the damage to 0, you either spend a Soak (which tend to have extra effects linked to them) or you immediately drop. I want to give it a try purely on that basis... the only issue is that you're all playing animal people for some reason. Maybe I could con some people into playing Lackadaisy Cats with me?

4. The Warren - It's a horror game where you play bunny rabbits! As in, actual bunny rabbits. The damage system is one of the most brutal I've seen - whenever you take a wound, you permanently lose the ability to engage with certain mechanics. There isn't a point where you have to retire a character, but the game suggests doing it after 2-3 wounds. And then you pick up and play a different bunny.

[Contrast]

I blame your DM(s). They didn't:

Try low magic. Only one player can be a caster, others only 1/4 caster (arcane trickster). Cuts down on the time spent in combat adjudicating magic!

So firstly, minor quibble but Arcane Tricksters and Eldritch Knights are 1/3rd casters, not 1/4.

More broadly though, while RPGs are a personal experience that a DM can tailor to their specific party there is a point whereby you're just actively working against what the system is trying to achieve. They could try to chop up and butcher 5E into something they enjoyed playing...or they could just accept 5E isn't the system for them and play one of the 100s of other really good RPG games out there that will work with you to actually try and provide an experience that they enjoy instead of needing to be forcefully wrestled into a headlock to squeeze out a drop of fun.

To take your low magic suggestion. This leaves barbarian, fighter and rogue...maybe monk depending on how the DM feels about Ki and magic. Even then most versions of barbarian include at least some manifestations clearly not martial in nature. If your first suggestion on how to make a game fun is to ban 2/3 of it then you need to seriously consider if you're not better off just scrapping it and finding another system to run the game with.

[Vorenus]

I recommend that you try a game called FORBIDDEN LANDS published by Free League and Modiphius. It has a high degree of lethality, and choices lead to significant and long-lasting consequences.

This is not to say that I agree with the criticism of 5e--I've been running that for almost two years now and have been enjoying it immensely. My recommendation for FORBIDDEN LANDS is simply that, a recommendation for a really fun, challenging game. Also, I should mention that FORBIDDEN LANDS really emphasizes hexcrawling style exploration. Enjoy!

[Throne12]

While they are partially to blame, I put that fault squarely on 5e's lackluster DMing advice. In my mind, this is offloading fault from the developers onto the consumers, which is... yeah, not a fan.

My overall issue isn't "Oh, I have to buy Tasha's to get the next best thing", it's "This game has some fundamental design choices that I don't like all that much. This newest release chooses to double-down on those design choices in a way that makes it very clear that I am not part of their intended audience."



It depends on exactly what you're looking for. Right now, my interests are drifting away from straight D&D-style fantasy stuff to other genres. A few of the games I'm interested in playing/running at the moment:

1) Masks - This is a PbtA game about playing teenage superheroes. The different playbooks (read: classes) are themed around specific types of stories, rather than their in-world powers - so, for example, one player might be playing the Janus (where both your mundane life and your hero life are fighting for your attention) while another person is playing the Protege (where you're basically Robin trying to figure out whether or not you're just mini-Batman). The most interesting part is that your stats aren't fixed - they're designed around your self-image, and other people can try to permanently push your stats up or down. I've had a ton of fun with this game before despite not really having much love for superheros in general.

2) Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 2e - This is the one "straight" fantasy game I'm looking into. Mostly because of the really good Fatal and Friends reviews/readthroughs of the books (be forewarned: there's a bit of bad language). I'm particularly enamored by the "career" system - long story short, it's a class system designed from the bottom-up for multiclassing. It just seems like a class act all around.

3. Urban Jungle - It's a film noir game with a surprisingly novel damage system. Basically, when someone hits you, you get to roll to reduce the damage. If you don't reduce the damage to 0, you either spend a Soak (which tend to have extra effects linked to them) or you immediately drop. I want to give it a try purely on that basis... the only issue is that you're all playing animal people for some reason. Maybe I could con some people into playing Lackadaisy Cats with me?

4. The Warren - It's a horror game where you play bunny rabbits! As in, actual bunny rabbits. The damage system is one of the most brutal I've seen - whenever you take a wound, you permanently lose the ability to engage with certain mechanics. There isn't a point where you have to retire a character, but the game suggests doing it after 2-3 wounds. And then you pick up and play a different bunny.

Fantasy stories have been on a rise since the 90's and 2000's and just keep growing in popularity. Because of the streamline & reskined ability of 5e. You can tell just about any fantasy story you want with 5e. It also helped that its a big name in ttrpg's and has been getting a lot of celebrity of talking about it and playing it.

There are so many new system on top of the big selection of older ttrpgs out there now. So with that and the time and effort put into learning a new system a lot of people just don't want to switch. It just easier to adapt a new rules to a system your already familiar with.

[Clockup]

There are rules from the DMG. That makes the game way more punishing.

1. The gritty realism is great for resource management and control.
2. I don't think this is in the book but I have a rule when death save only reset on a rest. It can be a short or long rest. This makes death a real fear.
3. I use lingering wounds table. Every time a player drops to zero they roll on the table.
4. Try using more scary monsters I was just using Rot grubs and Spawn of Kyuss. Other monsters I've seen players hate are star spawn, slaad, at lower levels magmen are Terrifying because of there they explode on death.
5. 5e was balanced for no to very little magic items.

So with all this you a pretty deadly game. I would like to use more sickness and Disease. But with paladins and monk they get abilities where they can't be sick or diseased. Then there is restoration spells. I guess you can just keep throwing Diseases at them.

So anyways thats my thoughts on a more deadly 5e game. Oh and my next campaign I'm going to be using all this. I've been using these rules here and there separately but not all together.

Death saves resetting only on rest is a 4e thing.

[Rynjin]

Savage Worlds seems like a great alternative. It's already a great mew-user-friendly system with modular character design and gritty death and injury rules, but is baseline compatible with fantasy tales of various sorts.

Adding in different splat can fundamentally change the game as well; I have high hopes for the upcoming Savage Pathfinder conversion, which should be...interesting.

[Amechra]

Savage Worlds seems like a great alternative. It's already a great mew-user-friendly system with modular character design and gritty death and injury rules, but is baseline compatible with fantasy tales of various sorts.

Adding in different splat can fundamentally change the game as well; I have high hopes for the upcoming Savage Pathfinder conversion, which should be...interesting.

I've been meaning to look at Savage RIFTS. Mainly because it'll be interesting to see what RIFTS looks like when it isn't being strangled by Palladium's house system.

[Dark.Revenant]

I can also suggest Stars/Worlds Without Number, depending on if you want a Sci Fi or Fantasy fix (the latter is in beta, to be released within a few months). They are nicely-rounded, simple and punchy OSR systems.

[Rynjin]

I've been meaning to look at Savage RIFTS. Mainly because it'll be interesting to see what RIFTS looks like when it isn't being strangled by Palladium's house system.

I can't get a handle on Savage Rifts. I've played a few games using it, and it feels like it's really hard to get anything done, since monster defenses are so ludicrously high it feels difficult to get anywhere as a PC. One of the things I like about base SW is you're not really encouraged to minmax raw damage numbers, and Rifts seems to require a lot of thinking about how many and how big of dice you can throw around when even basic fodder has a Toughness of 10+.

[Dienekes]

It depends on exactly what you're looking for. Right now, my interests are drifting away from straight D&D-style fantasy stuff to other genres. A few of the games I'm interested in playing/running at the moment:

Just reading through your list here. You might be interested in trying Riddle of Steel or it’s successor games. It remains my favorite of the high danger TTRPGs, simply on the strength of the combat system. It’s definitely worth a look, even if some of the system is less good.

[kingcheesepants]

I can certainly understand not being a fan of the design philosophy behind 5e and wanting to try out other things. I feel like some of the problems you have can be at least partially alleviated by mentioning it to your group and adopting a couple of the optional rules (like lingering injuries and longer adventuring days). I personally really like the high fantasy and the super heroic or even mythical type characters who can do all sorts of crazy things. But I also want to be pushed and challenged and make meaningful choices, and that can be a real balancing act and WotC seems to pretty consistently err on the side of making things easier on the players and giving an out in case things don't go their way. But still a DM doesn't have to do too much work to swing the pendulum back a bit and have meaningful choices and consequences to actions, so just mention your concerns to your group and maybe that'll put some of the spark back in your games.
I think I'll want to try out that Masks game you mentioned, that might be fun. Some of the crunchier games like Cyberpunk 2020 do a pretty good job of having your choices matter and being tough on the player. While some more narrative based games like Blades in the Dark (which I tried for the first time just recently and really enjoyed) do a good job of giving you meaningful consequences and a very different feel than 5e.

[Tanarii]

I recommend that you try a game called FORBIDDEN LANDS published by Free League and Modiphius. It has a high degree of lethality, and choices lead to significant and long-lasting consequences.

Second this. I did some play testing and it's a good system with a nice old school feel.

I was thinking about going back and trying the Mutant Zero series running the suggested campaigns, but things hit the fan.

[Willie the Duck]

I recommend that you try a game called FORBIDDEN LANDS published by Free League and Modiphius. It has a high degree of lethality, and choices lead to significant and long-lasting consequences.

This is not to say that I agree with the criticism of 5e--I've been running that for almost two years now and have been enjoying it immensely. My recommendation for FORBIDDEN LANDS is simply that, a recommendation for a really fun, challenging game. Also, I should mention that FORBIDDEN LANDS really emphasizes hexcrawling style exploration. Enjoy!

Forbidden Lands and Mythras are my go-to suggestions for people wanting to play a swords&spells TTRPG, but don't like D&D.