anyway for a sorcerer to increase ambrosia production without setting up a farm?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

i got it!!!!!!!!!!

planetar simualcrum.
or some other divine caster simulacrum. with lots of miracle castings!!!!

yes! wow! finally!

this thread shows how a true piece of art gets created. go down twenty blind alleys and one of the blind alleys blocks up into a path to the future!!!

solar is a 20th level cleric, but i dont want to use him unless i absolutely have to because, you know, hes a free wish guy.

Djinn simulacrums are cheaper.

You can also planar bind them easier, too.

[newguydude1]

Djinn simulacrums are cheaper.

You can also planar bind them easier, too.

i said i didnt want to use solar unless i absolutely have to because of the free wish.

[NigelWalmsley]

Simulacrum gets you something with "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities" of a creature with half the HD of the target. It's not at all clear to me that you can expect to get full casting value out of Planetar Simulacra.

[newguydude1]

Simulacrum gets you something with "the appropriate hit points, feats, skill ranks, and special abilities" of a creature with half the HD of the target. It's not at all clear to me that you can expect to get full casting value out of Planetar Simulacra.

im making advanced creatures so that when cut in half its identical to the stat block.

---

i found an evil way
KOCRACHON
from bovd. it has liquid pain as an at will sla.

i guess this is as good as it gets.

edit: morality undone spell can be used to use liquid pain as a nonevil caster.

[gogogome]

Shadow Miracles are terrible.

Whatever effect you produce with Miracle, it will most likely fall under "nondamaging effects", at which point if your opponent succeeds a will save, your spell does nothing.

Simulacrum replicated by Shadow Miracle? A successful will save will prevent the simulacrum from doing any damage, at all, to the disbeliever.

[noob]

Shadow Miracles are terrible.

Whatever effect you produce with Miracle, it will most likely fall under "nondamaging effects", at which point if your opponent succeeds a will save, your spell does nothing.

Simulacrum replicated by Shadow Miracle? A successful will save will prevent the simulacrum from doing any damage, at all, to the disbeliever.

Your interpretation makes shadow miracle stronger.
Now instead of calling a real planar ally you make an illusory creature so you created a creature instead of merely summoning one.
So the illusory planar ally knows they exists only thanks to you.
Also for non damaging effects the odds of them affecting on a successful save is 100+%

The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used

in shadowcraft mage

and in shadow evocation

If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur.

the 20% is assumed to be the spell strength since everywhere where they talk about damage or effects or hp they randomly say 20% or one-fifth.
so making your save would either make the non damaging effect be 100+% as strong or 100%+ as likely to occur.

So non damaging effects are not weakened at all.

[gogogome]

Your interpretation makes shadow miracle stronger.
Now instead of calling a real planar ally you make an illusory creature so you created a creature instead of merely summoning one.
So the illusory planar ally knows they exists only thanks to you.
Also for non damaging effects the odds of them affecting on a successful save is 100+%


in shadowcraft mage

and in shadow evocation

the 20% is assumed to be the spell strength since everywhere where they talk about damage or effects or hp they randomly say 20% or one-fifth.
so making your save would either make the non damaging effect be 100+% as strong or 100%+ as likely to occur.

So non damaging effects are not weakened at all.

Incorrect

Nondamaging effects have normal effects except against those who disbelieve them. Against disbelievers, they have no effect.

Planar Ally (if it even creates shadow creatures instead of calling real creatures) and Simulacrum are nondamaging effects. Therefore no matter how much you boost your shadow %, a simple will save will render your created creatures harmless.

[noob]

Incorrect



Planar Ally (if it even creates shadow creatures instead of calling real creatures) and Simulacrum are nondamaging effects. Therefore no matter how much you boost your shadow %, a simple will save will render your created creatures harmless.

I can use simulacrum as an attack by doing it 50 foot above someone.
In which case it is an attack and so the line about attacks applies.
Then once it was an attack it can now deal its effects other than damage at a 100% rate.

[gogogome]

I can definitively use simulacrum as an attack by doing it 50 foot above someone.
In which case it is an attack and so the line about attacks applies.
Then once it was an attack it can now deal its effects other than damage at a 100% rate.

Make a new thread and convince others people that creating a simulacrum in midair above someone turns it into a damage spell.

[noob]

Make a new thread and convince others people that creating a simulacrum in midair above someone turns it into a damage spell.

There is alternative ways to make it count as an attack: print out your own statblock as if it was a monster stat block and all your spells are attacks(they are in the special attacks section)
That or get a modifier to make it target a creature and any spell that targets creatures that are opponents and are not meant to target allies is an attack according to invisibility.
There is a lot of precedents about the rules being nonsense and a spell that contradicts itself is not the first instance of that.

[gogogome]

There is alternative ways to make it count as an attack: print out your own statblock as if it was a monster stat block and all your spells are attacks(they are in the special attacks section)
That or get a modifier to make it target a creature and any spell that targets creatures that are opponents and are not meant to target allies is an attack according to invisibility.
There is a lot of precedents about the rules being nonsense and a spell that contradicts itself is not the first instance of that.

How does any of that turn Miracle replicating simulacrum into a damaging effect?

[noob]

How does any of that turn Miracle replicating simulacrum into a damaging effect?

shadow evocation says that attacks that does things other than damage have an effect:

If the disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage, that effect is one-fifth as strong (if applicable) or only 20% likely to occur.

So the spell is contradicting itself and there is multiple ways to judge the effect.

By the way nothing says that miracle while duplicating a spell is the duplicated spell and you assumed that when miracle duplicated a spell it was the duplicated spell itself.(which is a valid interpretation but not the only valid one)
While it is also a legitimate interpretation that miracle creates a new spell and that someone could counter you either by countering the miracle or by countering the new spell created by the miracle.

[gogogome]

shadow evocation says that attacks that does things other than damage have an effect:

So the spell is contradicting itself and there is multiple ways to judge the effect.

By the way nothing says that miracle while duplicating a spell is the duplicated spell and you assumed that when miracle duplicated a spell it was the duplicated spell itself.(which does not make more sense than other interpretations)
While it is also a legitimate interpretation that miracle creates a new spell and that someone could counter you either by countering the miracle or by countering the new spell created by the miracle.

Spells that deal damage have normal effects unless an affected creature succeeds on a Will save.

Conveniently ignoring the first part of the paragraph...
Your quote only applies to spells that deal damage. Spells that dont go to the second paragraph. Simulacrum is not a spell that deals damage, so we go to the next paragraph: "Nondamaging effects"

[noob]

Conveniently ignoring the first part of the paragraph...
Your quote only applies to spells that deal damage. Spells that dont go to the second paragraph. Simulacrum is not a spell that deals damage, so we go to the next paragraph: "Nondamaging effects"

It is not because it is not in the same sentence and it is not explicitly said that the paragraph was about damaging spells also in english "disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage" can suggest it talks about attacks with no damage(and there is at least one precedent even outside of spells of attacks that deals no damage such as grappling attacks).
You are doing one interpretation and it is not the only one.
There is also the following problem:

Shadow Illusion (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a shadowcraft mage is able to infuse some of her figments (see the list below) with material from the Plane of Shadow, making them partially real. The subschool of these spells changes from figment to shadow. A shadowcraft mage can use the altered spell to mimic any sorcerer or wizard conjuration (summoning), conjuration (creation), or evocation spell at least one level lower than the illusion spell. The altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used. For example, a shadowcraft mage who uses silent image to create an acid splash would deal 10% of the normal damage to a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve the shadow. If she used programmed image to mimic summon monster V, the creature would have 60% of the hit points of a normal creature of its kind, and its damage would be 60% normal against a creature that succeeds on its Will save to disbelieve. A shadowcraft mage can apply shadow illusion to any of the following figment spells: silent image, minor image, major image, persistent image, and programmed image.

It is not clear that evocation spells cast that way are necessarily simulated by shadow evocation: they might also follow shadow conjuration rules and reciprocally.

[gogogome]

It is not because it is not in the same sentence and it is not explicitly said that the paragraph was about damaging spells also in english "disbelieved attack has a special effect other than damage" can suggest it talks about attacks with no damage(and there is at least one precedent even outside of spells of attacks that deals no damage such as grappling attacks).
You are doing one interpretation and it is not the only one.

So in my interpretation we have two categories
Spells that deal damage.
Spells that dont deal damage.

All spells in the entire game fit into these categories.

You on the other hand, is saying spells that dont deal damage, but is classified as an "attack", deal with the rules under "spells that deal damage", and then say that every single spell effect in the game can be classified as an "attack" if you look at it just the right way, therefore the second paragraph: "Spells that dont deal damage" is never invoked, so we ignore that entire paragraph in its entirety and only use the first paragraph.

[newguydude1]

let me just ask a question.

if we look at shadow conjuration, shadow creatures dont need to do spell resistance checks to deal damage with their natural weapon right?
so the "effect" is the creation of the creature. the creature itself is not a nondamaging effect, its the result of a nondamaging effect.

so wouldnt that mean shadow miracle making a simulacrum is a normal creature?

[gogogome]

if we look at shadow conjuration, shadow creatures dont need to do spell resistance checks to deal damage with their natural weapon right?

This is incorrect. Shadow creatures do need to do spell resistance checks to deal damage with their natural weapon.

Summon Monster spells are explicitly Spell Resistance:No. Change that to Spell Resistance:Yes and everything the summoned creatures do need a spell resistance check.