Transformation: Tasha's VS Tenser's

[JackOfAllBuilds]

- 1 Min. Limited damage immunity, variable condition immunity, flight, +2ac, SAD magical weapon attack, extra attack. Also can still spellcast.

- 10 Min. Bulk THP, advantage weapon attacks, 2d12 bonus damage, armor/shield prof, Str/Con save prof, extra attack. No spellcasting.

Is one better than the other, or do they each have their niche uses?

[heavyfuel]

- 1 Min. Limited damage immunity, variable condition immunity, flight, +2ac, SAD magical weapon attack, extra attack. Also can still spellcast.

- 10 Min. Bulk THP, advantage weapon attacks, 2d12 bonus damage, armor/shield prof, Str/Con save prof, extra attack. No spellcasting.

Is one better than the other, or do they each have their niche uses?

I don't have TCE yet, but given Tenser's Transformation is a pretty bad spell, I would say Tasha's is infinitely better.

[TheMango55]

You will do more damage with Tenser’s if you have even a half decent attack modifier (16 dex or something) but Tasha’s has some good defensive utility based on what you are fighting. Green or red dragon? Give me Tasha’s in a heartbeat.

One advantage you didn’t list though is that Tasha’s is a bonus action cast, so you can attack in the same round.

[MaxWilson]

- 1 Min. Limited damage immunity, variable condition immunity, flight, +2ac, SAD magical weapon attack, extra attack. Also can still spellcast.

- 10 Min. Bulk THP, advantage weapon attacks, 2d12 bonus damage, armor/shield prof, Str/Con save prof, extra attack. No spellcasting.

Is one better than the other, or do they each have their niche uses?

There's almost no overlap between them. Tasha's is mostly a defensive buff: your choice of immunity to fire/poison or radiant/necrotic/charmed, plus flying and a minor AC buff. The additional attack and ability to attack with your casting stat instead of Str/Dex are red herrings, best ignored.

Tenser's on the other hand is a poor man's offensive Fighter package. You get 50 temp HP, extra force damage on each attack, advantage on weapon attacks, weapon proficiencies, Str and Con saves, and a chance of exhaustion when the spell ends (hoooray!).

Tasha's is the spell you cast when you're fighting a Vampire and don't want to get charmed, or a bunch of Drow and don't want to get put to sleep. IMO it's pretty niche. (Bonus action cast is nice but matters less on a concentration spell because it just lets you Dash/Dodge/Hide/cantrip.)

Tenser's is the spell you cast when you've gotten suckered into a 1-on-1 duel with a Githyanki and need to win it in a way they'll respect. (Cast the spell and then spell 5 minutes donning armor, then start the fight.) It's also niche, but it's a different niche. Tenser's is also okay if you have a bunch of Carrion Crawler-poisoned weapons and want advantage on your attacks with them, plus extra damage to exploit the auto-crits.

[Witty Username]

- 1 Min. Limited damage immunity, variable condition immunity, flight, +2ac, SAD magical weapon attack, extra attack. Also can still spellcast.

- 10 Min. Bulk THP, advantage weapon attacks, 2d12 bonus damage, armor/shield prof, Str/Con save prof, extra attack. No spellcasting.

Is one better than the other, or do they each have their niche uses?

It is very hard to don armor during combat, and then if concentration goes down you lose spellcasting so I would not expect to use armor during Tenser's.

[Bilbron]

Tenser's is the spell you cast when you've gotten suckered into a 1-on-1 duel with a Githyanki and need to win it in a way they'll respect. (Cast the spell and then spell 5 minutes donning armor, then start the fight.) It's also niche, but it's a different niche. Tenser's is also okay if you have a bunch of Carrion Crawler-poisoned weapons and want advantage on your attacks with them, plus extra damage to exploit the auto-crits.

At first glance, Tenser's seems pretty solid if you have two weapons for at least 3 attacks as it adds 2d12 force to each attack. 6th level spells are also largely underwhelming, IMO. What would you prefer to cast in the context of always having only 1 slot each of 6th+ level?

[ZiddyT]

I was a big fan of Tenser's before TCoE - it was a significant damage boost for a martial Wizard, with baked in sustainability due to the THP and prof in Con Saves (possibly freeing up an ASI, allowing you to survive on just War Caster). The problem is that you have to be committed to being a martial Wizard, since you can no longer cast spells. This is fine for a certain flavor of Wizard, but definitely a major drawback.

But, then came revamped Bladesinger and Spirit Shroud. Bladesinger now has absolutely 0 use for Tenser's since it breaks their Extra Attack rather than ignoring it. With some luck (a moving target, or 2 adjacent targets), you can get over half that extra Tenser's damage in your normal attack routine using Booming Blade or Green-Flame Blade (~39 vs ~23 at 11, ~32 at 17). On top of that they can be concentrating on another damage booster like Shadow Blade (with some TWF shenanigans) or Spirit Shroud, putting another gish Wizard using Tenser's Transformation as their gimmick to shame.

I think the spell has definitely been relegated to an even more niche spot than it was before as more competition is crowding it out, which I think it just a little sad considering how long it takes for a Wizard attempting to make use of it to come online. I feel that it could maybe be Errata'd so that you just can't cast spells of 1st level or higher so that Bladesingers, the martial Wizard, actually have a reason to use the gish spell.

On the flip-side, Otherwordly Guise has some decent defensive benefits that you might make use of if you don't need (or need less) the damage boost from other concentration spells, while still being usable on a Bladesinger. I don't know if it could be considered "better," but I think on the whole it's more usable than Transformation.

[MaxWilson]

At first glance, Tenser's seems pretty solid if you have two weapons for at least 3 attacks as it adds 2d12 force to each attack. 6th level spells are also largely underwhelming, IMO. What would you prefer to cast in the context of always having only 1 slot each of 6th+ level?

Of the wizard spells, Contingency,
Mass Suggestion, Summon Greater Demon VI (Armanite isn't bad), Infernal Calling VI (Black Abishai), Globe of Invulnerability, Magic Jar, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Guards and Wards, Major Image VI, Wall of Force VI, Planar Binding VI, and Programmed Illusion are all attractive to me. Possibly Mental Prison, Magic Weapon VI, True Seeing or Conjure Minor Elementals VI too, depending on situation and party.

If I can only pick four native 6th level spells I'm probably picking Contingency, Mass Suggestion, Magic Jar, and Programmed Illusion, with Guards and Wards as runner-up, especially if there's no druid in the party. (Might drop Mass Suggestion or Magic Jar for it.)

[Bilbron]

Of the wizard spells, Contingency,
Mass Suggestion, Summon Greater Demon VI (Armanite isn't bad), Infernal Calling VI (Black Abishai), Globe of Invulnerability, Magic Jar, Otto's Irresistible Dance, Guards and Wards, Major Image VI, Wall of Force VI, Planar Binding VI, and Programmed Illusion are all attractive to me. Possibly Mental Prison, Magic Weapon VI, True Seeing or Conjure Minor Elementals VI too, depending on situation and party.

If I can only pick four native 6th level spells I'm probably picking Contingency, Mass Suggestion, Magic Jar, and Programmed Illusion, with Guards and Wards as runner-up, especially if there's no druid in the party. (Might drop Mass Suggestion or Magic Jar for it.)

Contingency is a must as it's not a combat cast and you need those with only one 6th level slot. Love Mass Suggestion as it seems the most powerful of the 6th level spells to me and a great use of your one slot, when you can stick it. Magic Jar is super powerful but seems evil and personally I think DMs should punish good players for using evil spells (alignment should matter in D&D, even though virtually no other gaming system ever replicated this mechanic). Irresistable Dance is solid and I like that it's thematic for a BS, so definitely took that. Programmed Illusion is solid but DM dependent and I personally hate illusions so it's not super appealing to me.

But yeah, with only one 6th level slot, it's hard for me to pick Tenser's as that's a lead spell and if you use it then you don't have a slot left for situational spells. So I think it's best to go all situational there and leave the slot open as long as possible, meaning that the opening concentration spell has to be in that 3rd or 4th level range where you actually have multiple spell slots.

Also thinking long and hard about maximizing Summon Greater Demon as it's so powerful and I can't with my current character due to campaign restrictions, but also doesn't strike me as all that thematic. Definitely a lot to chew on.

[Witty Username]

Wall of force and Mass suggestion are probably my favorites. Tenser's has the issue that I am off put by the concentration and the benefits being melee combat which I tend to avoid as a wizard on the best of days.

[Bilbron]

Wall of force and Mass suggestion are probably my favorites. Tenser's has the issue that I am off put by the concentration and the benefits being melee combat which I tend to avoid as a wizard on the best of days.

The way I see it, if you take Bladesinger you should commit to the theme. There are 12 other subdomains if you want to play from the back.

I may do a Metagaming Series vid on this. I'm a powergamer, sure, but I don't mind committing to a bit as long as I'm still lethal and I don't want to play the same playstyle every single time, it gets boring. I've played one character in one campaign in 5e so far, and when I'm starting a new system, I always go for the ultimate build that is 99% invincible. I think my Hide wizard is more or less that ultimate build for D&D 5e, so I'm satisfied with moving on to less invincible and hopefully less boring types of characters. I mean, getting hit with a critical once in a while would get the blood pumping! Currently, I never take damage and if the enemy even gets a hit on me, it means he's a legendary creature that scried me and planned for me and ambushed me and thusly managed to achieved the "victory" of making me say "ow" and switch to plan B. It's super-boring, tbh. I mostly just cast cantrips and watch my party do their thing as my Tiny Servants and Summon chew stuff up. I look forward to Bladesinging on the front lines! Though I guess it has to be a dramatic, situational thing since you don't get many instances of BS.

[MrCharlie]

Tenser's has its uses, and some bards (whisper bards, for instance) might look on it favorably. My personal take is that Tasha's is better in more situations though because the immunities are excellent. However none of the other 6th level spells offer the same staying power as Tensers, and if it's the only spell you can cast other than cantrips then it's your best option.

The armor proficiency is usually worthless-Short of some magic shenanigans (I guess you could interpret fabricate as letting you make armor around a target if you can make a bridge over a chasm with it, not that this is a good use of either spell). The martial weapon proficiency is also usually worthless, as you typically need to have the weapon you want to swing with attuned to swing with it.

As others have said bladesingers can't use tensers anymore, but other Wizards can when the situation calls for it.

Tasha's, meanwhile, is basically investiture of flame, fly, the hexblade level 1 feature, extra attack, and shield of faith in one spell. You also get charmed or poison immunity. Given that there are situations where I'd consider using investiture of flame, and Tasha's applies immunity to three other damage types (well, you pick between a couple, but this rarely changes much), it's quite good at defending yourself.

I'm not sure if the extra attack and spellcasting modifier attack are useful-I suppose they are slightly better than a cantrip, assuming you don't have massive spell attack bonuses, but the other features? Absolutely.

[Bilbron]

Tenser's has its uses, and some bards (whisper bards, for instance) might look on it favorably. My personal take is that Tasha's is better in more situations though because the immunities are excellent. However none of the other 6th level spells offer the same staying power as Tensers, and if it's the only spell you can cast other than cantrips then it's your best option.

The armor proficiency is usually worthless-Short of some magic shenanigans (I guess you could interpret fabricate as letting you make armor around a target if you can make a bridge over a chasm with it, not that this is a good use of either spell). The martial weapon proficiency is also usually worthless, as you typically need to have the weapon you want to swing with attuned to swing with it.

As others have said bladesingers can't use tensers anymore, but other Wizards can when the situation calls for it.

Tasha's, meanwhile, is basically investiture of flame, fly, the hexblade level 1 feature, extra attack, and shield of faith in one spell. You also get charmed or poison immunity. Given that there are situations where I'd consider using investiture of flame, and Tasha's applies immunity to three other damage types (well, you pick between a couple, but this rarely changes much), it's quite good at defending yourself.

I'm not sure if the extra attack and spellcasting modifier attack are useful-I suppose they are slightly better than a cantrip, assuming you don't have massive spell attack bonuses, but the other features? Absolutely.

I kind of agree. Tasha's is more situational and Tenser's is more of a round 1 spell, and with 1 slot, any multiple preps have to be situational or you're wasting them. That Fly speed is super sweet as a situational option, especially, if you're unable to get Flight through items as Fly is tough to squeeze in when 3rd level has the most good spells of any level (right?).

[MaxWilson]

The martial weapon proficiency is also usually worthless, as you typically need to have the weapon you want to swing with attuned to swing with it.

Why would that matter? Nothing prevents you from attuning a weapon you're not proficient in.

I kind of agree. Tasha's is more situational and Tenser's is more of a round 1 spell, and with 1 slot, any multiple preps have to be situational or you're wasting them. That Fly speed is super sweet as a situational option, especially, if you're unable to get Flight through items as Fly is tough to squeeze in when 3rd level has the most good spells of any level (right?).

Wizards have less need of tactical flying than melee fighters, and I generally just rely on getting flight (if needed) through Polymorph or a summoning spell. (Levitate could work too, and is generally a valuable offensive+defensive+utility 2nd level spell, but I usually can't squeeze it in.)

[MrCharlie]

Why would that matter? Nothing prevents you from attuning a weapon you're not proficient in.

If you want to attune a weapon specifically for use with a 6th level spell, sure. I find that to be a bit absurd.

I am ignoring non-attunement magic weapons though, so I was being a bit hasty.

[BamBam]

Flight is clinch tho, right?

[Zhorn]

I like to have Tenser's Transformation set up as a "break glass in case of emergency" type deal.
Use Glyph of Warding to cast Tenser's Transformation on an object inside a Bag of Holding.
Frees up the spell from only casting on yourself.
Such as putting it on the Fighter to make use of them having more than 2 attacks. Sure half the spell isn't doing anything, but the parts that are still in effect are now putting out more value, and you can leave the caster to stick to what they're stronger at doing: casting.
Or have it saved for that moment when a caster has run out of spell slots and still wants to contribute in a meaningful way (though I still favor using on a martial instead)

[JackPhoenix]

I like to have Tenser's Transformation set up as a "break glass in case of emergency" type deal.
Use Glyph of Warding to cast Tenser's Transformation on an object inside a Bag of Holding.
Frees up the spell from only casting on yourself.
Such as putting it on the Fighter to make use of them having more than 2 attacks. Sure half the spell isn't doing anything, but the parts that are still in effect are now putting out more value, and you can leave the caster to stick to what they're stronger at doing: casting.
Or have it saved for that moment when a caster has run out of spell slots and still wants to contribute in a meaningful way (though I still favor using on a martial instead)

Even assuming you are level 19-20 full caster (so you have 2 slots for GoW and TT), you can't use GoW with self-only spells.

[Zhorn]

Even assuming you are level 19-20 full caster (so you have 2 slots for GoW and TT), you can't use GoW with self-only spells.

Interesting to know, thankyou for the update.
Most folks I've played with have been ruling spell glyphs as a single slot affair, so such strats were usable from 11th level. Will keep this in mind for when such topics come up again, but I doubt they'll change their ruling since it will lead to less use of the spell.
Also interesting about that "no self" ruling as I'd have not gotten that from the spell text on it's own, "The spell must target a single creature" with self being singular and nothing in the spell specifying no to 'self' explicitly.
Cheer again for the info.

[JackPhoenix]

Interesting to know, thankyou for the update.
Most folks I've played with have been ruling spell glyphs as a single slot affair, so such strats were usable from 11th level. Will keep this in mind for when such topics come up again, but I doubt they'll change their ruling since it will lead to less use of the spell.
Also interesting about that "no self" ruling as I'd have not gotten that from the spell text on it's own, "The spell must target a single creature" with self being singular and nothing in the spell specifying no to 'self' explicitly.
Cheer again for the info.

I see the logic in the ruling: the glyph would attempt to cast it on itself if triggered (which is impossible, both because it's not a creature, and it has to target the triggering creature).

Of course, this is another example where having an explicit Target entry in spell's description would be helpful.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I advocate for Tenser's Transformation being altered to allow the caster to use their spellcasting attribute for Attack and Damage rolls with weapons.

In AD&D, Tenser's Transformation allowed the magic-user to utilize the Fighter attack matrix, which was a significant improvement over the magic-user matrix.

In 5e, the Advantage granted to all weapon attacks by the TT spell, is oft going to be negated by a source of Disadvantage, which might leave the Wizard, attacking with an Attribute modifier of +0.

Extreme Range overwatch is not a terrible use for Tenser's Transformation.

Engaging Banshees at 600' range in a magically unstable region,
such as the Mournland equates to 7 to 8 rounds of Force Damage
against notoriously resistant foes.

(a DM might ad hoc transform a Guiding Bolt spell cast by a player into a Living Spell, but I have never experienced this with a spell with a range of self)

As a DM I have used this 'cursed' magic item since AD&D:

Cowbird Scroll
This item appears to be a Spell Scroll containing a spell other than Tenser's Transformation. When the scroll is used, the Magic contained within the object is used instead to produce a Tenser's Transformation spell effect. The user of the scroll can not self-willingly stop concentrating on the Tenser's Transformation effect.

A Wizard that expected a Teleport effect, or a Cleric that thought they were using a scroll of Prayer of Healing will be in a for a forced change in tactics, (and hopefully some challenging fun).

A great item to give in pairs...one scroll to trigger unexpectedly; one scroll the party can try to optimize a use for.

[Necromas]

Tenser's might still be good for a bladesinger if you use crossbow expert. You could get three attacks with the +2d12, and while shadow blade and spirit shroud are better for any close range bladesinger just by virtue of not gating off your use of scagtrips or leveled spells, neither of them work at long range.

It's still pretty niche and I wouldn't want to have the spell memorized all the time, but it might be good to prepare for certain specific situations like if you know you'll need force damage.

[Zhorn]

I see the logic in the ruling: the glyph would attempt to cast it on itself if triggered (which is impossible, both because it's not a creature, and it has to target the triggering creature).

Of course, this is another example where having an explicit Target entry in spell's description would be helpful.

A target line would be a great inclusion in 6th if/when that ever becomes a thing.

As for targeting specific to the conversation, spell glyphs in Glyph of Warding is already particular in who it targets "If the spell has a target, it targets the creature that triggered the glyph", which again since the spell itself makes no explicit restriction against using 'self' spells in its text, would indicate such strategies should have been viable.

This is one of those cases where I'm going to recognise the intended ruling as being what was clarified by the devs, but will still favour the reading that makes more sense to me and favours RAF, like the case was with the Twinned meta magic + Dragon's Breath spell, and will just refer to the preferred ruling as a house rule from now on.

[JackOfAllBuilds]

Wildly off tangent. Back on topic please?

We were only comparing the two 6th level spells granting extra attack, and the differences in their other perks.

[diplomancer]

I'd say, in general, Tenser's is better. Tasha's main advantage is still being allowed to cast spells, but as it requires concentration your best spells are already off-limits, and probably have lesser effect than the Tenser's attacks, so having access to them is not that good. It's an ok defensive buff for Bladesingers in the right circumstances, but that's about it. Tenser's will only be used when you can pre-cast it, and then you will equip a shield, possibly a Magical one, which is better than +2 AC.

Tenser's on a Bard with Find Greater Steed is GOOD.

[MaxWilson]

I'd say, in general, Tenser's is better. Tasha's main advantage is still being allowed to cast spells, but as it requires concentration your best spells are already off-limits, and probably have lesser effect than the Tenser's attacks, so having access to them is not that good. It's an ok defensive buff for Bladesingers in the right circumstances, but that's about it. Tenser's will only be used when you can pre-cast it, and then you will equip a shield, possibly a Magical one, which is better than +2 AC.

Tenser's on a Bard with Find Greater Steed is GOOD.

Or a wizard who's Wished previously for a Greater Steed (rhinoceros is good).

One thing that makes Tenser's better than it first appears is that it's concentration. So it's not so much that you can't cast spells, just that the opportunity cost of casting e.g. Counterspell goes way up because you'll lose Tenser's (and maybe get exhausted). As diplomancer says, many good spells are concentration anyway, but there are instantaneous spells like Absorb Elements and Dimension Door which might be worth dropping Tenser's for, sometimes.

Another interesting possibility: what if someone Polymorphs you while you're Tenser'ed up? Instead of a wizard attacking twice with a dagger (+7ish at advantage) for d4+2+2d12 (17.5) per hit, how about instead a T Rex attacking twice with a bite (+10 with advantage) for 4d12+7+2d12 (46) per hit, plus restraining, with 10' reach and 50' speed and +8-10 on Con saves (depending on proficiency bonus)? Add in some other concentration-free buffs like Fire Shield and maybe Longstrider and this starts to look like a spell I would actually bother to cast. It's not that the combo is unusually powerful, it's just fun and not unusually weak (except to things like Mind Blast).

It might be _fun_ to go 1 on 1 with a CR 13 Devourer or a Purple Worm. Maybe you could tank for the party against the Tarrasque. I'd still never choose this spell as a wizard "free pick" but if I found it in a spellbook, maybe I'd cast it.

Gets even more interesting with True Polymorph (Marilith), or perhaps via Glyph of Warding in a Demiplane.

[BullyWog]

I like Tensers as a “ in case of emergency break glass” spell. If you’re in is low visibility area and are likely forced into a melee situation it a can save you. The main damage is from the force part not the weapon damage so magic weapons aren’t needed.
Another use is against a BBEG you can’t easily debuff or hurt. Bows and arrows are cheap and easy to carry. You don’t need to put on armor, just get 150 feet away and shoot.