Fiend of Possession: How Does it Work, and What Works Best?

[Doctor Despair]

Fiend of Possession is an interesting PrC that was brought up in a recent thread as a way to make a character into a sort of DIY magical item. I decided to take a look at it, and, in addition to finding discussion on the usefulness of Dimensional Shackles/Rods of Embassy/Naturalized Denizen, I found I had a few questions.

Question 1: Rules Q & A

Fiends of Possession possess the following ability:

Hide Presence (Ex): A fiend in possession of an object or creature can attempt to hide its presence by making a special Hide check. This "mental" Hide check uses the fiend's Intelligence modifier instead of its Dexterity modifier. A successful check allows a fiend of possession to avoid virtually anything that would betray its presence in the possessed creature or object: it can pass through a magic circle against evil, enter a temple warded by forbiddance, or escape detection via detect evil. The DC for this Hide check is the same as the saving throw DC for the spell the fiend is trying to avoid. The fiend gains a +4 circumstance bonus on this check if it is not controlling the possessed creature or object at the time of the check.

When possessing a creature, a fiend of possession can make this Hide check to protect the possessed creature from the full effects of alignment-based spells such as holy smite. If the fiend makes a successful Hide check (against the save DC of the spell), the possessed creature takes damage appropriate to its actual alignment, but if the fiend fails the Hide check, the possessed creature is affected as if it were the fiend.

Making this check is not an action; the fiend can do it in response to another creature's action (such as casting detect evil).

This ability states that is can be used to hide from virtually anything that would betray its presence, which seems powerful. It then goes on to say that the DC for the hide check is the saving throw DC for the effect it would avoid. Spot checks, listen checks, special senses (blindsight, scent, mindsight, lifesense), no-save spells like Detect Magic do not have saving throws.

Does this mean that such means to detect the FoP have an effective DC of 0 to avoid, or is the ability incapable of hiding from them?

If any method of detecting the FoP that doesn't offer a save has a DC of 0 (and it did say it works against virtually anything), then this should offer stealth against... well, as the ability says, virtually everything, as skill checks are easier to pump than save DCs, right? That seems very powerful, which makes me want to err on the side of caution, but it literally says that it can help the FoP escape detection by Detect Evil as an example, which offers no save, making me think this should work on... literally everything automatically, with a check to avoid detection by things that force saves?

Question 2: Rules Q & A

Fiends of Possession also possess this ability:

Possess Object (Su): A fiend of possession in ethereal form can possess an object on the Material Plane...

While possessing an object, a fiend of possession can use any ability it has that requires no physical action, such as using a spell-like ability or telepathy. It cannot cast spells (since it can neither speak nor move), attack physically, or perform any other physical action, until it reaches a high enough level to make the possessed object perform these tasks for it.

Based on this, it seems like a standard fiend could use psionic abilities with no restriction. It seems like Control Object would allow you to meet the S components for spells, but not the V or M components. If this is the case, Silent Spell and Eschew Material Components could be very helpful for a spellcasting fiend.

Does all this seem accurate?

Question 3: Rules Q & A

If a Fiend of Possession is possessing a creature or object, it "becomes part" of the object or victim respectively. It talks about how it can see within 60 feet of the object, or see using the victim's senses, so that should satisfy the line of sight requirement for effects, but does a Fiend of Possession have line of effect to other creatures? I have no doubt the fiend would have line of effect to itself and to the creature or object it is possessing, but would being "part" of the possessed creature or object mean you draw a line from the creature or object to the target?

Question 4: Optimization

As entry options, the Kaorti and Divine Minion Diabolus seem relatively comparable.

Kaorti (Fiend Folio 108) offers, for LA2 and two HD, the outsider type and evil subtype. It grants you some SLAs and racial skill points and skill bonuses, an EWP and Weapon Finesse, -4 str, +4 dex and int, and +6 cha. It gives a host of SLAs, the ability to make more kaortis, and a vulnerability to being on the material plane (and the means to craft armor to negate that vulnerability). It also grants sorcerer as a favored class.

Diabolus (Dragon Compendium 6) offers, for LA1, the outsider type and chaotic subtype. They get a bonus to saves against spells and SLAs, some racial bonuses and penalties to skills, a natural attack with a scaling poison rider to sicken, and sorcerer as a favored class. Meanwhile, being a Mulhorandi Divine Minion of Sebek offers, for LA1, an exchange for the chaotic subtype to become the evil subtype. It grants a very broken Fast Wild Shape ability that, by RAW, grants infinite healing each round, and fear immunity. It also means that you can be summoned using Summon Monster or Planar Ally.

The handbook suggests that Kaorti is the best outsider to translate into FoP. Even assuming a reasonable DM would hard nerf the MDM unlimited healing each round by only allowing one transformation per turn, or limiting uses from at-will to X per day, or something, are the benefits from the Kaorti racial hitdie worth giving up two class levels? I suppose you could do the wight trick, level drain one of the HD off, and retrain the other, although I'm not sure which benefits would be retained if you lose all the HD... Just looking for some general thoughts and feedback for this one.

Thanks for any clarification or feedback folks can offer!

[ben-zayb]

A Fiend of Possession thread! I've always been a fan of it as one of the best stealthy scout options.

Note that bit about the Hide check DC being equal to the saving throw DC is exclusively against spells; you can justifiably include powers when using transparency, Supernatural/spell-like/psi-like abilities that that have specified saving throw DC to detect, and supernatural/spell-like/psi-like abilities that mimic spells/powers with saving throw DCs. True Seeing can't even do anything against it. Absent any other special exception, I'd expect spot checks and listen checks to work the same way as they always have.

I'm not sure why you think Control Object can provide somatic components. Somatic components involve gestures that IIRC not every manner of creature, let alone a possessed object, can simply just do.

[Doctor Despair]

W.r.t. Q1

Note that bit about the Hide check DC being equal to the saving throw DC is exclusively against spells; you can justifiably include powers when using transparency, Supernatural/spell-like/psi-like abilities that that have specified saving throw DC to detect, and supernatural/spell-like/psi-like abilities that mimic spells/powers with saving throw DCs. True Seeing can't even do anything against it. Absent any other special exception, I'd expect spot checks and listen checks to work the same way as they always have.

Hide Presence (Ex): A fiend in possession of an object or creature can attempt to hide its presence by making a special Hide check... A successful check allows a fiend of possession to avoid virtually anything that would betray its presence in the possessed creature or object: it can pass through a magic circle against evil, enter a temple warded by forbiddance, or escape detection via detect evil. The DC for this Hide check is the same as the saving throw DC for the spell the fiend is trying to avoid.

The examples given are all spells (magic circle, forbiddance, detect evil), but the ability itself says you make the check to avoid virtually anything that would betray its presence, not just spells, suggesting it should work for things like Mindsight, Scent, Spot, Listen, etc.

The line about saves might suggest it would apply only to spells/SLAs/PLAs/SUAs, but looking more closely, it isn't telling us we can only use it for spells -- it's just describing how it works when we do use it to hide from spells.

Additionally, it gives us the example of Detect Evil, which means it works on things that do not prompt for saves. If the DC to hide from this is the same as the saving throw DC, we run into the issue that would be prompted if this ability worked on mundane forms of detection (Mindsight, scent, listen, etc): if it doesn't have a fixed DC, what is it opposed against? A homebrewey answer would be to use the rules for Darkstalker for all other forms of detection (i.e., they make a listen or spot check opposed to your hide check), but the ability certainly doesn't spell that out.

I suppose technically the ability only says you can attempt to hide your presence, and that a successful check allows you to hide from anything. Based on that reading, anything without a listed DC would automatically fail (so Mindsight, scent, etc would automatically detect you), but that also means that Detect Evil would automatically detect you, which is explicitly not true.

Edit: Oh, I had thought you were suggesting the ability would only function against spells, but now that I look at your post more closely, it seems like you're suggesting that special senses would be unable to detect the Fiend without special exceptions. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that spot and listen checks would work the same way they always have. Do you mean they would be opposed to the hide/move silently, whereas all other senses would be automatically foiled if they didn't offer a save?

W.r.t. Q2

I'm not sure why you think Control Object can provide somatic components. Somatic components involve gestures that IIRC not every manner of creature, let alone a possessed object, can simply just do.

Possess Object (Su): A fiend of possession in ethereal form can possess an object on the Material Plane...

While possessing an object, a fiend of possession can use any ability it has that requires no physical action, such as using a spell-like ability or telepathy. It cannot cast spells (since it can neither speak nor move)... until it reaches a high enough level to make the possessed object perform these tasks for it.

As it says, you can cast spells if you are a high enough level to make a possessed object perform the task for you. The only abilities the Fiend gains that would allow this are Control Object or Animate Object. I suppose it could be implying that you'd need to have animated a humanoid-shaped object, like a marionette...

[sleepyphoenixx]

This ability states that is can be used to hide from virtually anything that would betray its presence, which seems powerful. It then goes on to say that the DC for the hide check is the saving throw DC for the effect it would avoid. Spot checks, listen checks, special senses (blindsight, scent, mindsight, lifesense), no-save spells like Detect Magic do not have saving throws.

Does this mean that such means to detect the FoP have an effective DC of 0 to avoid, or is the ability incapable of hiding from them?

If any method of detecting the FoP that doesn't offer a save has a DC of 0 (and it did say it works against virtually anything), then this should offer stealth against... well, as the ability says, virtually everything, as skill checks are easier to pump than save DCs, right? That seems very powerful, which makes me want to err on the side of caution, but it literally says that it can help the FoP escape detection by Detect Evil as an example, which offers no save, making me think this should work on... literally everything automatically, with a check to avoid detection by things that force saves?

Note that Hide Presence only works if the FoP is possessing an item or creature. That means it couldn't be detected by spot, listen, blindsight, etc. anyway because it's not a physical creature.
I'm afb but iirc there aren't that many effects that can reveal a possessing fiend in the first place.
As for spells that don't normally offer a save i'd just go with the DC they'd have if they did (10 + level + ability). It's the only way that makes sense to me.

The ability is more or less limited to pulling off the "secretly possessed by a fiend" plot without being foiled the first time you walk past a paladin or set foot in a temple. It's certainly not Hide in Plain Sight or Superior Invisibility.

[Venger]

A 1 It specifically says it nullifies detect evil, which does not have a save. This means the DC is null, so you automatically succeed without a check.

A 2 Even if you allow movement of a possessed object to count for the purposes of somatic components despite their notable lack of elbows, the class's features neglect to give you the ability to speak while doing so, so you are still constrained.

A 3 Yes.

A 4 No.

[ben-zayb]

Edit: Oh, I had thought you were suggesting the ability would only function against spells, but now that I look at your post more closely, it seems like you're suggesting that special senses would be unable to detect the Fiend without special exceptions. I'm not sure what you mean when you say that spot and listen checks would work the same way they always have. Do you mean they would be opposed to the hide/move silently, whereas all other senses would be automatically foiled if they didn't offer a save?

W.r.t. Q2




As it says, you can cast spells if you are a high enough level to make a possessed object perform the task for you. The only abilities the Fiend gains that would allow this are Control Object or Animate Object. I suppose it could be implying that you'd need to have animated a humanoid-shaped object, like a marionette...

1. Yup, I meant stuff like Mindsight just gets nullified right out of the gate but divination spells with save DC to detect you can be beaten with a hide check. I was about to say you still need a hide check vs spot/listen, but I've forgotten what sleepyphoenix pointed out. This ability only works when you're possessing an object, which negates the possibility of being seen or heard in the furst place. Fiend of Possession is really good for flying under the radar.

2. Imagine if you animated a ball, and a somatic component may involve snapping your fingers. The ball is physically still incapable of doing that. I'm AFB book but IIRC there was a thing about polymorphing forms possibly keeping you from getting the right somatic components, which leans into the idea that simply being capable of movement is not enough to meet that spell component.

Edit: The bit you quoted may be referring to the "attack physically" limitation, not necessarily the spellcasting. It looks poorly worded, but it's easy to see why you read it that way.

[sleepyphoenixx]

2. Imagine if you animated a ball, and a somatic component may involve snapping your fingers. The ball is physically still incapable of doing that. I'm AFB book but IIRC there was a thing about polymorphing forms possibly keeping you from getting the right somatic components, which leans into the idea that simply being capable of movement is not enough to meet that spell component.

That's what Surrogate Spellcasting (SS) is for. Not quite as good as Natural Spell but it lets you make somatic components as long as you can move something.

The alternative is either psionics or something like Master Illusionist 10 (for auto still/silent/eschew on illusions).

[Vizzerdrix]

DMDM was the road I took when I played a FoP. I used Ardent for the base class because of its wonky wording and mantle abilities. Life and protection, I think, is what I took to start. The plan being to soak up some of the damage by possessing an adamatine frying pan or something.

[Hish]

Question 1: I don’t know what RAW is or what they intended when they wrote the ability, but as a DM I would use the DC that the spell would have if it allowed a saving throw. So the standard 10+ability+spell level plus any additional modifiers to spell save DC.
For spot checks, listen checks, blindsight, scent, tremorsense, etc, I wouldn’t give any special ability to avoid detection, but most of those would have no way to detect you anyway. You’re physically part of your host, so there’s nothing out of the ordinary to spot/hear/smell.

Question 2: That seems right. The only caveat is that in order to use your possessed object for somatic components, it must be a form that can perform the required motions. Eg, a crossbow can’t perform somatic components, but a statue could.

Question 3: I would say being part of it means you use that creature/object to determine line of effect.

Question 4: Divine Minion Diabolus seems to be a stronger choice than Kaorti.