OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

It looks a bit like Green is the poisoner and Orange is the big one.

Both paladins have their weapons hanging pretty far from their bodies.

O'Chul is presumably held by both legs, Lien held by her left leg (on our right side). Or by their ankles, rather. Her spear's highest point is level with her head, while his sword is well below his head.

But you are entirely correct. We see green is the dialogues with the paladins, and then he says "grab them", and his speech bubble is removed from the bodies.

So... Orange is one huge hulk that's holding both of them AND their weapons. And given the orientation of the weapons (vertical), I can't imagine feet being the appendages holding these.

A Nalfeshnee is a huge outsider that can fly and has multiattack. Not four arms, though. A Marilith has many arms and telikenesis, though no fly. Formians can't fly, though with this dungeon being tunnels and all, could sorta fit, but then, these aren't typically solo creatures either.

[danielxcutter]

Also don't a lot of beings say their spell-like abilities out loud despite there being even less need to do that compared to normal spells?

[Metastachydium]

[Sighs.]
There are few things that we know about the voices.
We know they have colour-on-colour speech bubbles;
we know that they can fly;
we know at least one of them probably has wings;
we know that at least one of them is probably Large or larger;
we know Orange probably has four prehensile limbs;
and we know they can use magic.

(Half-)dragonc can and often do have the same type of speech bubble;
(half-)dragons can fly
because they have wings
if they are Large or larger (in the case of half-dragons; all full dragons can fly with their wings);
and if Wywerns can grab and hold opponents with their legs, true dragons should have mildly prehensile hind legs as well.
Dragons have innate magic, while half-dragons can pile as many spellcaster class levels as they want.

All in all, we have storng arguments for the Voices being (half-)dragons.
Do we have any argument for them being outsiders?

[danielxcutter]

Colored speech bubbles!

But yeah, I have no concrete idea what those two are. Hopefully that'll be fixed soon.

[Riftwolf]

It's possible there's more than one orange under greens command. The one who speaks is just the foreman, or whatever. The paladins and their weapons could be being carried by 3 large creatures.

[danielxcutter]

...Well, I suppose that isn't entirely out of the question.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Also, multiple entities makes them a team, which flows in with Team Evil vs the Order.

[Schroeswald]

I’m still going with them being Kermit and Scooter but I know that’s less popular nowadays.

[Peelee]

I’m still going with them being Kermit and Scooter but I know that’s less popular nowadays.

I'm ride or die with you on Kermit and Scooter.

[Metastachydium]

You want crazy theories? I can give you crazy theories.
The defenses of the Tomb combine everything the other Scribblers tried and adds more. It is a bluff, warded by magic sigils disguised as traps and is watched over by a flying treant and four winged paladins.

[Peelee]

You want crazy theories?

YES!

The defenses of the Tomb combine everything the other Scribblers tried and adds more. It is a bluff, warded by magic sigils disguised as traps and is watched over by a flying treant and four winged paladins.

I love it!

[Petrocorus]

JPME. Joint Professional Military Education. Yes. And I had to become quite knowlegeable on land and air warfare during that course of study. Did a staff ride/detailed camaign study of the Vicksburg campaign as a part of that ...

That's pretty cool.

FWIW: I found that thread to be of little to no value - which might be influenced by the fact that I retired from D&D (as it turned out, for over a decade) early in the 3. 5 era.

Obviously this thread cannot have value for someone who don't play.

Took the books to a half-priced books store and sold them for a bit of beer money.

This is heresy.

Back to this topic (sorry that the digression wasn't about Star Wars ) I finally "grokked" the 'change in floor color' detail from Roy. On the fourth read through of the strip.

"grokked"???

So... Orange is one huge hulk that's holding both of them AND their weapons. And given the orientation of the weapons (vertical), I can't imagine feet being the appendages holding these.

Do we have any evidence the weapons, or at least one of them was not grabbed by the green one?

[Arathorne]

"grokked"???

reference to a term "coined" in the book Stranger in a Strange Land by one of my favorite Sci Fi writers Robert Heinlein, and probably the best book he ever wrote.

[ebarde]

If I could have a crack at this:

Soon's gate fell cause the honor of a paladin isn't unbreakable

Girard's gate fell cause he only trusted in his family. Even taking the familicide aside, him keeping the information in his very specific family cult thingie was what made the gate even a race in the first place, cause if he wasn't so paranoid the order could have definetly gotten there without much trouble(although I highly doubt the Order could have fortified it enough to stop Team Evil). His over-reliance on illusions and trickery were also sorta his downfall to some extent, since it was definetly the most flimsy and unreliable defenses of any gate even if all went according to plan, a result of him pretty much only trusting himself and all his family members that seemed to have basically his same skillset.

Druid Lady's gate fell cause she didn't accounted for undead, which are pretty much the opposite of her whole naturey deal.

Dorukan despite all his planning and intellect had his gate be destroyed by the in the moment actions of the dumbest member in the party. You could also argue that the reason there was a button there in the first place was cause of Dorukan preparing for every possible circunstance ever, like any self-respecting Batman Wizard.

At the end of the day, the most common mistake everyone in the Order of the Scribble made was to believe themselves to be wholy self-reliant(even in Girard and Soon's case, the only people they could trust were pretty much extensions of their themselves, and extremely exclusive secret groups they created). Each gate fell cause of a shortcoming of their specifc abilities and skillsets, which makes Serini's gate an outliar as it's the only gate that specifically wasn't made with only the owner's designs and philosophy in mind. In a comic which is one way or another kinda all about the power of teamwork, it would be fitting that the gate to stand at the end being the one that thus far seems to be at the very least a combination of Kraagor and Serini's ideals.

[Goblin_Priest]

I hadn't considered half-dragons. That sounds like it could work. Though why do one of them need to have wings? I see no reference to wings, nor any "woosh" sound effect. They could all be magically flying, which would make the list of potential candidates pretty long.

Do we have any evidence the weapons, or at least one of them was not grabbed by the green one?

Well, the location of the speech bubbles, plus the fact the weapons are being held between the two paladins, while Green's bubble is way out on the right side.

Telekinesis could also account for this though and again widen the array of potential candidates.

As for the prehensile feet, well, the angle of the weapons is what bothers me most. Some creatures have finger-like toes, sure. But if you imagine them grabbing stuff like a primate or a bird would, with their feet, then they would be held horizontally, or at best by their top end, but in this case the top end is pointy and not a good place to grab. Holding them with your feet like this would require very flexible ankles, and I can't really think of anything that has such dexterity in their feet. Or doing the split, but again, doing a split is hard on land, doing it in the air, while holding stuff with the feet at the same time... that's a combination of super strength and super dexterity in the lower body.

Could just be an oversight on Rich's part, though, but I can't picture myself any creature holding all four of these things with merely 2 hands and 2 feet.

[InvisibleBison]

All in all, we have storng arguments for the Voices being (half-)dragons.

I'm not sure this is true. It's perfectly possible that they are dragons or half-dragons of some sort, but as far as I can tell there's nothing that would make it more likely than any other valid explanation, which is what I would expect for a strong argument.

[KorvinStarmast]

"grokked"???

When you grok something, you finally get it, or, it finally registers with you and makes sense. (As noted above, from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. The character who introduces the concept of grokking is IIRC from Mars, and he's visiting Earth.)

[Arathorne]

Actually, the character is a man that was born during a human mission to Mars to a couple on that mission. They died during the landing I believe and "Valentine Michael Smith" as he was named was raised by Martians who used that term as an expression of understanding. VMS was declared the owner of Mars when he was returned to Earth and the book is about his "adventures" when he comes back to his home planet.

[bunsen_h]

When you grok something, you finally get it, or, it finally registers with you and makes sense. (As noted above, from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. The character who introduces the concept of grokking is IIRC from Mars, and he's visiting Earth.)

As originally used, it meant to fully merge with a thing; to eat, or to be eaten by. To completely understand it. There are many nuances.

[KorvinStarmast]

To completely understand it.

Whenever I use it, that's ^^^ the meaning being applied.
(A stronger form of "Aha, I get it")

The other one's get a bit too much into religion ...

[WanderingMist]

Bad theory time:

The monster that guards the actual Gate, once you get past all the traps and trickery, is MitD's parent. It is also the orange voice in the paladin-napping duo.

[Petrocorus]

When you grok something, you finally get it, or, it finally registers with you and makes sense. (As noted above, from Heinlein's Stranger in a Strange Land. The character who introduces the concept of grokking is IIRC from Mars, and he's visiting Earth.)

OK, i get it, i have to add this to my to-read list, because it's not big enough yet.

IIRC, i only read Starship Troopers and Friday from Heinlein.

[KorvinStarmast]

IIRC, i only read Starship Troopers and Friday from Heinlein.

That's a move from "the sublime to the ridiculous" but I read them both ... uh ... years ago.

[Petrocorus]

That's a move from "the sublime to the ridiculous" but I read them both ... uh ... years ago.

I didn't find any of this to be ridiculous, but i was young. Last year of high school or fist year of college.
IIRC, i read them both after the Starship Troopers movie came out.

[Goblin_Priest]

I believe pretty much all that can be attributed to half-dragons, however, can be attributed to other templates as well, such as half-fiend.

Half fiends would fit well into the IFCC arc. Half dragons would fit well into the black dragon arc.

[Peelee]

reference to a term "coined" in the book Stranger in a Strange Land by one of my favorite Sci Fi writers Robert Heinlein, and probably the best book he ever wrote.

That reminds me, i should pick up that book sometime.

Of course, I say that about every piece of media that Iron Maiden sings about...

[2D8HP]

That reminds me, i should pick up that book sometime.

Of course, I say that about every piece of media that Iron Maiden sings about...

This made me smile.

Possibly more that youngsters still like Iron Maiden than anything else.

[BruceGee]

Heinlein's best book was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I will defend that statement.

[Ruck]

That reminds me, i should pick up that book sometime.

Of course, I say that about every piece of media that Iron Maiden sings about...

Well, I liked it, for whatever that's worth. Still bummed that the personal copy I got for a gift in 2008 went missing.

[Metastachydium]

I hadn't considered half-dragons. That sounds like it could work. Though why do one of them need to have wings? I see no reference to wings, nor any "woosh" sound effect. They could all be magically flying, which would make the list of potential candidates pretty long.

„On panels no. 2, 3, 4 and 6 there's a wind moving Lien's cloak. It could be caused by wings (cf. the battle of Azure City), and (based on what we saw there) possibly two sets of them, since the wind keeps changing its direction (left-to-right on no. 2 and 4, right-to left on no. 3 and 6[)]”

I believe pretty much all that can be attributed to half-dragons, however, can be attributed to other templates as well, such as half-fiend.

Half fiends would fit well into the IFCC arc. Half dragons would fit well into the black dragon arc.

Not exactly. We are yet to see so much as a single celestial or fiend with speech bubbles that fit this pattern, which would make half-fiend and half-celestial less likely than half-dragon.

I'm not sure this is true. It's perfectly possible that they are dragons or half-dragons of some sort, but as far as I can tell there's nothing that would make it more likely than any other valid explanation, which is what I would expect for a strong argument.

They arguably fit everything we know about the Voices. Other possible explanations are more problematic. Subsequently, while I agree that we don't have binding evidence one way or the other, arguments for the Voices being (half-)dragons are at least somewhat stronger than arguments for them being something else.