OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[woweedd]

So if each was beat by their antithesis, the one thing they regarded as too weak to bother to protect against (sorcerers with quantity over quality; dishonourable paladins; undead; something targeting a whole family at once), what would Serini's big downfall be? Her inability to settle down and defend the place herself?

GW

Plus, Dorukan seems to have taken great pride in his intellect, and his gate was blown up by Elan's unthinking stupidity. Meanwhile, Lirian fell, not only to an undead, but to a forest fire, a destructive aspect of the same nature she loved. Given that Serini's dungeon was built around brute force and powerful monsters, i'm gonna bet it'll fall to a creature of absurd power and strength. Can you think of any creatures like that? Say, a creature you've spent years wondering about, and run a thread on?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Plus, Dorukan seems to have taken great pride in his intellect, and his gate was blown up by Elan's unthinking stupidity. Meanwhile, Lirian fell, not only to an undead, but to a forest fire, a destructive aspect of the same nature she loved. Given that Serini's dungeon was built around brute force and powerful monsters, i'm gonna bet it'll fall to a creature of absurd power and strength. Can you think of any creatures like that? Say, a creature you've spent years wondering about, and run a thread on?

But that would be pretty much definitionally working as intended. That's not a flaw in Kraagor's worldview as interpreted by Serini, it is pretty much what Kraagor would have approved of, as far as I can tell. There is also a difference between "what ultimately broke the gate", which is incidental and not a pattern I can see, versus what the deep flaw in the individual that allowed the gate to be destroyed. "Fire versus nature", ok, and "good but stupid not making great decisions", ok, but "Roy decided it was for the best while V was in Hell" does not in any way reflect Whats-his-face's over-reliance on family or anything else about his philosophy. Meanwhile "wizards are the superior spellcaster"/"a natural virus will depower anyone dangerous"/"only a paladin's honour is unbreakable"/"only family can be trusted" do form a pattern where each one encountered the one thing it couldn't face, despite their belief they had found the perfect defence.

Grey Wolf

[mjasghar]

With regards to serini and her intentions:
Whilst she may have built the dungeon in tribute to Kraagor, let’s not forget he died (or not) because he believed in going full brute force without checking etc
Maybe that’s the point - going brute force gets you nowhere
So it’s a tribute and a lesson

[Peelee]

With regards to serini and her intentions:
Whilst she may have built the dungeon in tribute to Kraagor, let’s not forget he died (or not) because he believed in going full brute force without checking etc
Maybe that’s the point - going brute force gets you nowhere
So it’s a tribute and a lesson

Admittedly, I don't trust the crayon drawings 100%, but that was not the lesson I got from Kraagor's death.

[danielxcutter]

For some reason, I don't feel like Kraagor's Tomb will fall like that. And not just because if it does then the world ends and the cycle continues, or the Snarl eats the multiverse.

[hroþila]

For some reason, I don't feel like Kraagor's Tomb will fall like that. And not just because if it does then the world ends and the cycle continues, or the Snarl eats the multiverse.

Well, it could fall without being destroyed and the world ending (Team Evil could find it, secure it and start the ritual). But it would also be fitting if it held altogether thanks to teamwork and not relying on any one thing.

[danielxcutter]

Well, it could fall without being destroyed and the world ending (Team Evil could find it, secure it and start the ritual). But it would also be fitting if it held altogether thanks to teamwork and not relying on any one thing.

Pretty much, yeah. Besides, I think we're all a bit sick of the Order screwing things up and only managing to salvage things at the last second.

[KorvinStarmast]

Given that Serini's dungeon was built around brute force and powerful monsters, i'm gonna bet it'll fall to a creature of absurd power and strength. Can you think of any creatures like that? Say, a creature you've spent years wondering about, and run a thread on?

What gate?
Can one destroy what one does not perceive?

[danielxcutter]

What gate?
Can one destroy what one does not perceive?

I don't think Elan even knew about Dorukan's Gate, and look what happened to that one!

[BarakDeathBlade]

I don't think Elan even knew about Dorukan's Gate, and look what happened to that one!

What gate?

[Goblin_Priest]

I know that. It's half the reason why I believe these must be dragon bubbles. However, I also know that Enor and the Boss Monster had different speech bubbles even though they were both blues, so I believe there's some room for variation. And were I to be wrong, we still have the orange ones, right?

I'm thinking either outsider or aberration, with very little coming to mind for aberration, so going with outsider mostly. And mostly of the neutral types.

[Petrocorus]

We also have pseudodragons (too small) and wywerns (too few limbs). And yes, there's a fair chance one of the two can be a half-dragon.

I willingly put pseudodragons aside (which indeed make my statement factually false) and truly forgot about wyverns (which are probably not smart enough and have the limbs issue).

My money would be on two half-dragons of different races of dragons and different species for the non-dragon halves.

Orange dragon sounds good to me, but there's also the thing that if a black dragon can speak in purple, I'd say a red dragon can speak in orange.

If black dragons followed the same pattern, their speech bubble would be black on lighter shade of black, not that readable.
It may also be the case of early instalment weirdness with the Giant not having decided yet about the speech bubbles.

I know that. It's half the reason why I believe these must be dragon bubbles. However, I also know that Enor and the Boss Monster had different speech bubbles even though they were both blues, so I believe there's some room for variation. And were I to be wrong, we still have the orange ones, right?

Boss Monster indeed has a different kind of speech bubble.
Maybe it's also the case of early weirdness as for the black dragon, maybe the Giant made a mistake.
Or maybe we assume wrong and the speech bubbles don't follow a pattern. As odd as it may seem, i'm starting to wonder.

I'm thinking either outsider or aberration, with very little coming to mind for aberration, so going with outsider mostly. And mostly of the neutral types.

I don't think we've seen outsiders with the same kind of speech bubbles. Would you have an example?

[hamishspence]

I don't think we've seen outsiders with the same kind of speech bubbles. Would you have an example?

Jeff, in a No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus strip (the start of the Warthogs School of Magic scenes for the Linear Guild), is an outsider (looks like a four-armed fiend of some kind) who breaks the general "fiends have black background and coloured text" rule a bit - having red text on yellow background). Maybe the black background for fiends, is more for archfiends, that one pit fiend, and Qaar?

Another fiend with a similar red-on-yellow text-background colour combination - the hellhound, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html


The red slaad here, has red text on pink background.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html


The yugoloth (lobster-like fiend) has white text, pinkish-purple background

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html

I'm thinking either outsider or aberration, with very little coming to mind for aberration, so going with outsider mostly. And mostly of the neutral types.

This was the main example of "aberration with coloured text and background" - the carrion crawlers.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

[Metastachydium]

I willingly put pseudodragons aside (which indeed make my statement factually false) and truly forgot about wyverns (which are probably not smart enough and have the limbs issue).

My money would be on two half-dragons of different races of dragons and different species for the non-dragon halves.

The one with the blowgun definitely isn't a full dragon (but should be of Large size for the wings). The other… Hard to tell, but could be.

If black dragons followed the same pattern, their speech bubble would be black on lighter shade of black, not that readable.
It may also be the case of early instalment weirdness with the Giant not having decided yet about the speech bubbles.


Boss Monster indeed has a different kind of speech bubble.
Maybe it's also the case of early weirdness as for the black dragon, maybe the Giant made a mistake.
Or maybe we assume wrong and the speech bubbles don't follow a pattern. As odd as it may seem, i'm starting to wonder.

It's pretty consistent: dragons get either white on dark colour (ABD, Boss MOnster, the oracular voice) or dark coulour on light colour.

Jeff, in a No Cure for the Paladin Blues bonus strip (the start of the Warthogs School of Magic scenes for the Linear Guild), is an outsider (looks like a four-armed fiend of some kind) who breaks the general "fiends have black background and coloured text" rule a bit - having red text on yellow background). Maybe the black background for fiends, is more for archfiends, that one pit fiend, and Qaar?

Another fiend with a similar red-on-yellow text-background colour combination - the hellhound, here:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0867.html


The red slaad here, has red text on pink background.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1147.html


The yugoloth (lobster-like fiend) has white text, pinkish-purple background

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0908.html


This was the main example of "aberration with coloured text and background" - the carrion crawlers.

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0865.html

You can add the bearded devils summoned by Redcloak to deal with the resistance. None of these examples matches the pattern we are talking about, though. Dark colour on lighter shade of same colour has been exclusive to dragons and giants. These are all instances of dark colour on different light colour.

[hamishspence]

It's true that the carrion crawlers' background is yellow rather than the same shade of green.


I'd say that the slaad, however, does sort of fit the "background is a lighter shade of the text" - pink is a lighter shade of red, after all.

You can add the bearded devils summoned by Redcloak to deal with the resistance.

With two different "fiends from hell" both of which have the red-and-yellow combination, maybe that's the default for Baator now - red, yellow, or both? Qaar was red on black, Lee was yellow on black, and we have at least two red-on-yellows.

[Rogar Demonblud]

IMS, Not-Thad had dark blue on light blue as well.

[hamishspence]

IMS, Not-Thad had dark blue on light blue as well.

Is this Not-Thad? Looks like white on blue to me:


https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1163.html

[Metastachydium]

It's true that the carrion crawlers' background is yellow rather than the same shade of green.


I'd say that the slaad, however, does sort of fit the "background is a lighter shade of the text" - pink is a lighter shade of red, after all.

That's certainly the best match of the lot, but I'm left unconvinced (we've seen red-on-red before, and it looked different). (What Large+ sized winged outsiders are there anyway?)

With two different "fiends from hell" both of which have the red-and-yellow combination, maybe that's the default for Baator now - red, yellow, or both? Qaar was red on black, Lee was yellow on black, and we have at least two red-on-yellows.

Yup. Red-on-yellow seems to be a consistent pattern itself, but a different pattern nonetheless (I don't presume you wish to suggest that Green and Orange ar an erinys and a pit fiend).

[hamishspence]

(What Large+ sized winged outsiders are there anyway?)

Mostly devils - malebranche, horned devil, etc.

Yugoloths have one notable example - the nycaloth.

There's a few winged demons in Large size.

I'd speculate that green-on-green might also cover plant creatures. The treant in Start of Darkness spoke in grey-on-grey - but that was because the book was in greyscale, and I can believe that it would speak green-on-green in a colour strip.

[Metastachydium]

Mostly devils - malebranche, horned devil, etc.

Yugoloths have one notable example - the nycaloth.

There's a few winged demons in Large size.

You guess it's the IFCC getting their followers' hands dirty? That would be an interesting possibility, although I'd still say we have stronger arguments for the Voices being (half-)dragons.

I'd speculate that green-on-green might also cover plant creatures. The treant in Start of Darkness spoke in grey-on-grey - but that was because the book was in greyscale, and I can believe that it would speak green-on-green in a colour strip.

That's… That's just so absolutely unfair. Do you know how long I have waited for those poor green plant creatures to get some manner of actual representation instead of only getting cast here and there as disposable minions (which is also way unfair)? Congratulations. You've just found the one theory I really don't want to shoot down. Now I'll probably start seeing flying treants everywhere.

[hamishspence]

Maybe we should compare Giant coloured text bubbles to Dragon coloured text bubbles - do Giant ones tend to have darker text and lighter backgrounds on average?


Death Giant
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1081.html


Frost Giant
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1061.html


Red Dragon
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0719.html

Blue Half-Dragon
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0713.html


Mysterious characters abducting O-Chul and Lien
https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1189.html


IMO the backgrounds on the mysterious characters are darker, closer to the dragon bubbles, than the giant bubbles, making part-dragon slightly more plausible than giant.

Dark colour on lighter shade of same colour has been exclusive to dragons and giants.

And one intelligent flesh golem - Crystal:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0978.html

Her speech bubbles were generally a different shape though.

[Metastachydium]

Maybe we should compare Giant coloured text bubbles to Dragon coloured text bubbles - do Giant ones tend to have darker text and lighter backgrounds on average?

Definitely true for death giants. Frost vs. Enor, easy as it should be, is a bit less conclusive due to the differently coloured surroundings, but I think the frost bubbles are also lighter than the Enor bubbles.

IMO the backgrounds on the mysterious characters are darker, closer to the dragon bubbles, than the giant bubbles, making part-dragon slightly more plausible than giant.

Don't forget the wind either. If it is indeed caused by wings, we may safely exclude giants.

And one intelligent flesh golem - Crystal:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0978.html

Her speech bubbles were generally a different shape though.

Rright, but yeah, it is impossibele to mistake the Crystal bubbles for anything else.
A more fit comparison can be made between the Voice bubbles and the bubbles Girard-the-Talking-Boobytrap is using, but then, Girard is of draconic ancestry.

[Schroeswald]

But that would be pretty much definitionally working as intended. That's not a flaw in Kraagor's worldview as interpreted by Serini, it is pretty much what Kraagor would have approved of, as far as I can tell. There is also a difference between "what ultimately broke the gate", which is incidental and not a pattern I can see, versus what the deep flaw in the individual that allowed the gate to be destroyed. "Fire versus nature", ok, and "good but stupid not making great decisions", ok, but "Roy decided it was for the best while V was in Hell" does not in any way reflect Whats-his-face's over-reliance on family or anything else about his philosophy. Meanwhile "wizards are the superior spellcaster"/"a natural virus will depower anyone dangerous"/"only a paladin's honour is unbreakable"/"only family can be trusted" do form a pattern where each one encountered the one thing it couldn't face, despite their belief they had found the perfect defence.

Grey Wolf

I’d argue that the legitimate destruction of Girard’s does fit that. Girard believe that only family could be trusted, the reason Roy decided to destroy it was because Elan’s family was dangerous.

Also the forest fire does have more than just it kills nature. The forest fire could only happen because Lirian‘s unwillingness to allow controlled burns so there was way too much tinder.

[danielxcutter]

I’d argue that the legitimate destruction of Girard’s does fit that. Girard believe that only family could be trusted, the reason Roy decided to destroy it was because Elan’s family was dangerous.

Also the forest fire does have more than just it kills nature. The forest fire could only happen because Lirian‘s unwillingness to allow controlled burns so there was way too much tinder.

I think you’re stretching a bit with the Lirian one. The family one does make sense though.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I’d argue that the legitimate destruction of Girard’s does fit that. Girard believe that only family could be trusted, the reason Roy decided to destroy it was because Elan’s family was dangerous.

No, it was because a local warlord, who incidentally happened to be the father of a member of Roy's party, was likely going to take it from them. But the family relationship was hardly central to the reason why Roy though he couldn't hold the place.

ETA: heck, not even that. Roy was confident they might be able to take own Tarquin. The key reason Roy gives to destroy the gate is that Xykon is on the way.

Grey Wolf

[Ghosty]

I’d argue that the legitimate destruction of Girard’s does fit that. Girard believe that only family could be trusted, the reason Roy decided to destroy it was because Elan’s family was dangerous....

I like this. But, I'd argue family was what got Girard's group killed---their insistence on only trusting family, and forcibly kidnapping children that resulted from their sexual relationships. Everyone was related by blood, which meant that everyone would die from Familicide. Relax that insistence even a little, and there'd be survivors to help defend the Gate.

What that means for subverting Serini's idea for how best to guard her Gate? I've no idea.

[Goblin_Priest]

I don't think we've seen outsiders with the same kind of speech bubbles. Would you have an example?

I don't remember where we saw them. Aside from the slaad in the durkon death strip, at some point we saw a character with a moral conundrum, and he had little psychochomps come and consel him, an angel, a fiend, a slaad, and an inevitable, if I remember correctly.

I don't think these creatures are evil outsiders, at least not the big three fiends. I'm thinking more neutral outsiders, like inevitables, slaad, the gith, or anything similar (and not copyrighted).

[Metastachydium]

I don't remember where we saw them. Aside from the slaad in the durkon death strip, at some point we saw a character with a moral conundrum, and he had little psychochomps come and consel him, an angel, a fiend, a slaad, and an inevitable, if I remember correctly.

That scene has an angel, a devil, a slaad and a modron, and it doesn't really help us.

I don't think these creatures are evil outsiders, at least not the big three fiends. I'm thinking more neutral outsiders, like inevitables, slaad, the gith, or anything similar (and not copyrighted).

They are definitely not modrons, and almost certainly not slaads (one of them is larger and quite probably winged).

[Hopeless]

Spoiler

Show

Is this all leading to a reveal that Serini decided this was all for nothing and deliberately arranged for X to receive her diary so he could wittingly destroy everything her group achieved?

[Petrocorus]

So basically, the colour-on-lighter-shade-of-same-colour pattern has been seen so far on draconic creatures, giants, an illusion (though it might be Girard's individual magic effect) and a golem (with different bubble shape).

But not all draconic creatures have had this pattern since Black Dragon Mother and Boss Monster were white-on-colour. I'm not sure the Oracle counts here.

This makes the speech bubble pattern much less conclusive than what i thought.

I still have my money on draconic creatures, but now i won't be so surprised if i turn out wrong.