OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey_Wolf_c]

OK, i get it, i have to add this to my to-read list, because it's not big enough yet.

That reminds me, i should pick up that book sometime.

OK, word of warning: it has NOT aged well. The main character is, by modern standards, an unapologetic mass-murderer leader of a sex cult. There is also a rather disturbing amount of homophobia even by the standards of its day. The plot itself is weak, with a barely coherent frame that drops away around midpoint when the sex cult gets going, which is about as far as I got with the book.

Overly Sarcastic Productions did a video summary of the plot if you want to save yourself some pepto bismol.

Heinlein's best book was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I will defend that statement.

FTR, I agree with this statement. It too has its issues, but it has aged less badly than SiaSL, and it has yet to reach the naked awfulness of Starship Troopers (IMnpHO, SiaSL passed ST in awfulness some time back, and continues to accelerate, but the Starship Troopers film helped a lot in appreciating the book ironically).

ETA: Oh, I should disclaim that all three have politics, of the extreme variety, and they're a big part of why they haven't aged well (or were bad even back in the day), but obviously can't comment on that.

Grey Wolf

[Peelee]

OK, word of warning: it has NOT aged well. The main character is, by modern standards, an unapologetic mass-murderer leader of a sex cult. There is also a rather disturbing amount of homophobia even by the standards of its day. The plot itself is weak, with a barely coherent frame that drops away around midpoint when the sex cult gets going

Yeah, we've all seen Tiger King, but what about the book?

[Goblin_Priest]

„On panels no. 2, 3, 4 and 6 there's a wind moving Lien's cloak. It could be caused by wings (cf. the battle of Azure City), and (based on what we saw there) possibly two sets of them, since the wind keeps changing its direction (left-to-right on no. 2 and 4, right-to left on no. 3 and 6[)]”



Not exactly. We are yet to see so much as a single celestial or fiend with speech bubbles that fit this pattern, which would make half-fiend and half-celestial less likely than half-dragon.



They arguably fit everything we know about the Voices. Other possible explanations are more problematic. Subsequently, while I agree that we don't have binding evidence one way or the other, arguments for the Voices being (half-)dragons are at least somewhat stronger than arguments for them being something else.

Very observing. Get treat.

I wonder if it's intentional, though. If the wind was made by flying with wings this close to the paladins... surely it'd make noise?

I also notice that the wind is always from Lien's face. Maybe it just draws easier/nicer to have her cape flowing behind her instead of ahead of her?

Also, the wind appears to change on one panel here. Were they being watched then, or maybe the wind just shifts a lot where they are?

And despite all this theory crafting, a few fairly low level spells could explain most of what we are seeing. I mean, since they are attacking invisibly, they have greater invisibility, which was likely cast by a character with caster levels, who would therefore also be able to cast Fly. I don't know if any creatures have Greater Invisibility as a spell-like, and if there are any, the odds of also having Fly (or flight) and the means to move the paladins and their weapons... even a Pit Fiend gets only regular invisibility as a spell-like.

[Metastachydium]

Very observing. Get treat.

Yay! (One must think of those icy jaws, after all.)

I wonder if it's intentional, though. If the wind was made by flying with wings this close to the paladins... surely it'd make noise?

ABD flies without noise if memory serves, as does Enor.

I also notice that the wind is always from Lien's face. Maybe it just draws easier/nicer to have her cape flowing behind her instead of ahead of her?

Well, the Giant did the cape flies ahead thing with Belkar (when the zombie dragon attacked) and there's nothing wrong with how it looks as far as I can tell.

Also, the wind appears to change on one panel here. Were they being watched then, or maybe the wind just shifts a lot where they are?

Could be, of course. But what we see there doesn't seem half as unnatural as the quick, rhytmical changes of Wait and See (and yes, it would be weird if the Voices weren't watching them before they struck).

And despite all this theory crafting, a few fairly low level spells could explain most of what we are seeing. I mean, since they are attacking invisibly, they have greater invisibility, which was likely cast by a character with caster levels, who would therefore also be able to cast Fly. I don't know if any creatures have Greater Invisibility as a spell-like, and if there are any, the odds of also having Fly (or flight) and the means to move the paladins and their weapons... even a Pit Fiend gets only regular invisibility as a spell-like.

Yeah, spells and SLAs can explain most of it, but not the speech bubbles and (if I'm right) the wings.

[danielxcutter]

I think it's safe to say that whatever they really are, they're not creatures that have been shown in the comic before and may actually be drastically different from the others.

[InvisibleBison]

They arguably fit everything we know about the Voices. Other possible explanations are more problematic. Subsequently, while I agree that we don't have binding evidence one way or the other, arguments for the Voices being (half-)dragons are at least somewhat stronger than arguments for them being something else.

There are other possible explanations that are not more problematic, though. For example, what if the voices are an earth halfling with wings of flying and a half-fiendish girallon? This suggestion meets the benchmarks you laid out in your earlier post:

It would make sense for these creatures to have colored speech bubbles, as they're both infused with extraplanar energy.
They can both fly.
They both have wings.
One is Large.
The Large one has four prehensile limbs.
Since they have access to a powerful magic item, they could plausibly also have access to greater invisibility, either by casting it themselves or by using a magic item.

So how is the voices being dragons and/or half-dragons a stronger explanation than the one I proposed here?

[Goblin_Priest]

Yay! (One must think of those icy jaws, after all.)



ABD flies without noise if memory serves, as does Enor.



Well, the Giant did the cape flies ahead thing with Belkar (when the zombie dragon attacked) and there's nothing wrong with how it looks as far as I can tell.



Could be, of course. But what we see there doesn't seem half as unnatural as the quick, rhytmical changes of Wait and See (and yes, it would be weird if the Voices weren't watching them before they struck).



Yeah, spells and SLAs can explain most of it, but not the speech bubbles and (if I'm right) the wings.

Well if to go back to outsiders, they can be spellcasters, either by adding class levels, or by virtue of race (rhakashas are considered high level spellcasters I think?). So, there could be that.

Dragons also get those perks, though, and some I believe get polymorph abilities on top. So could be plain dragons after all.

Dragons are the strongest candidates, I'll concur. Including half-breeds, that is.

But if they are dragons, who do they work for? ABD? Tiamat? The Oracle? The IFCC?

[KorvinStarmast]

I didn't find any of this to be ridiculous, but i was young. Last year of high school or fist year of college.
IIRC, i read them both after the Starship Troopers movie came out.

Sorry, that was me trying to be clever. I found Starship Troopers to be a fine bit of SF story telling, when I first read it and when I read it again decades later - sublime. Friday I found to be a case of Heinlein indulging himself. (Everything after Stranger in a Strange Land tended to be that way, to include Job, a Comedy of Justice) - so to a minor extent, ridiculous. I will say that I enjoyed Friday when I read it ... uh ... 25 or so years ago?

A favorite RAH saying comes to me from The Notebooks of Lazarus Long:

"The three words that will guarantee you a happy marriage: rub her feet."

I discovered this to be true.

Heinlein's best book was The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and I will defend that statement.

I'll guard the left flank in that defence.

FWIW: Starship Troopers was on the US Army's Junior Officer Recommended Reading List back in the 90's. I'll see if it's still there.
ETA: no, it isn't. That reading list has changed a lot since 9-11. Wow. (Still has Keegan's Face of Battle, and Paret's Makers of Modern Strategy; and the addition of Monsoon (Kaplan) was IMO a great idea)

[Metastachydium]

Well if to go back to outsiders, they can be spellcasters, either by adding class levels, or by virtue of race (rhakashas are considered high level spellcasters I think?). So, there could be that.

Dragons also get those perks, though, and some I believe get polymorph abilities on top. So could be plain dragons after all.

Dragons are the strongest candidates, I'll concur. Including half-breeds, that is.

But if they are dragons, who do they work for? ABD? Tiamat? The Oracle? The IFCC?

If they are dragons, the answer is almost certainly Tiamat (the Oracle works for the Church of Tiamat, while ABD is both dead and out of league).

[danielxcutter]

Sorry, that was me trying to be clever. I found Starship Troopers to be a fine bit of SF story telling, when I first read it and when I read it again decades later - sublime. Friday I found to be a case of Heinlein indulging himself. (Everything after Stranger in a Strange Land tended to be that way, to include Job, a Comedy of Justice) - so to a minor extent, ridiculous. I will say that I enjoyed Friday when I read it ... uh ... 25 or so years ago?

A favorite RAH saying comes to me from The Notebooks of Lazarus Long:

"The three words that will guarantee you a happy marriage: rub her feet."

I discovered this to be true.

Uh... what?

[KorvinStarmast]

Uh... what?

That was me answering Petrocorus in our little digression about Heinlein. If the rest of y'all can digress into Star Wars or LoTR, we can have a little Heinlein digression for Starship Troopers. Yes, we can.

Spoiler: Movie Review

Show

I think the movie stunk up the world as compared to the book, YMMV

[danielxcutter]

That was me answering Petrocorus in our little digression about Heinlein. If the rest of y'all can digress into Star Wars or LoTR, we can have a little Heinlein digression for Starship Troopers. {PS I think the movie stunk up the world as compared to the book, YMMV} Yes, we can.

I was talking about the saying.

[KorvinStarmast]

I was talking about the saying.

Oh, sorry.

Rub her feet. {I always got the idea that this is to be said with a wink and a smile} (I think it's a short hand for "take extra special care of her" ...)

I took this vital information into our marriage, and discovered (particularly when she was pregnant with either of our two kids) that this advice was well written.

(I suspect Heinlein's wife is the one who suggested that he add that to the Notebooks of Lazarus Long; he brainstormed and consulted with her on a number of his books and stories ...)

[bunsen_h]

OK, word of warning: it has NOT aged well. [...] There is also a rather disturbing amount of homophobia even by the standards of its day.

Since I'm straight, I'm not going to have picked up on this as well as others might. And I haven't read the book in quite a while. But what I recall was a bit of character comment expressing pity for the non-masculine men and a bit of "ew, ick!", with another character -- the archetypal Heinlein curmudgeon -- pushing back, saying essentially "hey, don't knock it if you haven't tried it". And I seem to recall that by the end of the book, a couple of characters were shown to be gay and just part of the extended "family". I don't think that this is "a disturbing amount of homophobia even by the standards of its day" except by very selectively choosing those standards.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That was me answering Petrocorus in our little digression about Heinlein. If the rest of y'all can digress into Star Wars or LoTR, we can have a little Heinlein digression for Starship Troopers. Yes, we can.

Spoiler: Movie Review

Show

I think the movie stunk up the world as compared to the book, YMMV

See, I am on Verhoeven's side on this one. I think the book is an OK military adventure story, dragged down by some rather icky politics, and thus Verhoeven made the right choice when he decided to make it satire of the war propaganda films he saw when he lived in occupied territory... since it fits like a glove.

Grey Wolf

[KorvinStarmast]

See, I am on Verhoeven's side on this one. I think the book is an OK military adventure story, dragged down by some rather icky politics, and thus Verhoeven made the right choice when he decided to make it satire of the war propaganda films he saw when he lived in occupied territory... since it fits like a glove.

Grey Wolf

Robert A. Heinlein was, for his time, "a flaming liberal" as described by his peers. (I suspect that in modern parlance he'd be somewhere along the American Libertarian spectrum). He explored a wide variety of social and political topics in his writing. If you can't handle the "politics" in Starship Troopers then perhaps you missed the point. I agree with you, though, that at it's core it's a coming of age story as regards a young man entering the military. There were a metric ton of stories like that which came out after WW II in America. Battle Cry and Biloxi Blues are but two that come to mind that were also made into films.

Verhooven can go fly a kite, as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose that's a matter of taste. {I have a similar, strongly negative reaction to Peter Jackson as regards the artistic atrocity that he inflicted on The Hobbit ...}

[Petrocorus]

The plot itself is weak, with a barely coherent frame that drops away around midpoint when the sex cult gets going, which is about as far as I got with the book.

I don't get it. If the plot is weak why do people recommend it?

FTR, I agree with this statement. It too has its issues, but it has aged less badly than SiaSL, and it has yet to reach the naked awfulness of Starship Troopers

I totally disagree with this statement.

ETA: Oh, I should disclaim that all three have politics, of the extreme variety, and they're a big part of why they haven't aged well (or were bad even back in the day), but obviously can't comment on that.

AFAIK, many of Heinlein's books had politics, and often on different "colours" of the political spectrum.
And i myself believe that learning about the political concepts of the past can be insightful.

Yeah, we've all seen Tiger King, but what about the book?

I haven't even heard about it.

I don't know if any creatures have Greater Invisibility as a spell-like, and if there are any, the odds of also having Fly (or flight) and the means to move the paladins and their weapons... even a Pit Fiend gets only regular invisibility as a spell-like.

I can think of at least pixies having greater invisibility. They are small though.
IDK if there are more than them in the SRD.

A favorite RAH saying comes to me from The Notebooks of Lazarus Long:

"The three words that will guarantee you a happy marriage: rub her feet."

I discovered this to be true.

I can +1 this to some degree.

FWIW: Starship Troopers was on the US Army's Junior Officer Recommended Reading List back in the 90's.

I don't imagine a SF novel making it into the French equivalent of it. Though i wouldn't know where to look for it.
I have a friend in the Air Army, i'll ask him.

Spoiler: Movie Review

Show

I think the movie stunk up the world as compared to the book, YMMV

Well... this movie is much more a Verhoeven movie than a Heinlein's novel adaptation.

[Goblin_Priest]

If they are dragons, the answer is almost certainly Tiamat (the Oracle works for the Church of Tiamat, while ABD is both dead and out of league).

ABD and family are dead. ABD could have non-blood-related allies.

The Oracle gets his powers from Tiamat, but I seem to recall a line about him not being a super dedicated servant.

What's Tiamat's motivations to end the world?

Are the paladins the proper vessels for the IFCC?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

If you can't handle the "politics" in Starship Troopers then perhaps you missed the point.

Well, I'm sorry, but the general message of "lets nuke them before they nuke us" is not particularly palatable to me. Especially given who "them" is and how they are equated to bugs. But no, I do not think I missed the point. I think the point is quite nakedly honest about where they stand in the politics of the time when it was written. And it is despicable regardless.

But this is really not the place to talk about it.

As to Verhoeven, I think I could easily throw back that "perhaps you missed the point" accusation back at ya. Starship Troopers, like Robocop, are excellent movies, and clearly "go" together. But, again, hard to talk about why without digging into the political ideas they are eviscerating.

I don't get it. If the plot is weak why do people recommend it?

You seldom recommend Heinlein because of the plot, which exists mostly in service of getting you from one author rant to the next. Generally, SiaSL is recommended by those who first learnt of polyamory and communal living from it, or find it to be a great selling point for that lifestyle. It became a sort of holy book for a lot of the hippies of the 60s. As I said, it's not that it was that bad for the time it was written, its that it has aged badly, and now a lot of the things that were new and advanced at the time are now backwards and problematic. As with any other book written sufficiently in the past, you do need to keep that in mind and much can be forgiven or at least udnerstood as a product of its time, but still: fair warning, I'd say.

Grey Wolf

[Metastachydium]

ABD and family are dead. ABD could have non-blood-related allies.

Again, she's strictly out of league.

The Oracle gets his powers from Tiamat, but I seem to recall a line about him not being a super dedicated servant.

Doesn't ring a bell. At any rate, we never saw him use his powers for big time personal gain, and he doesn't seem to have goals of her own.

What's Tiamat's motivations to end the world?

Basically all we know about Tiamat is that she's a consummate schemer. Also, the majority of Team Red voted yes on Armageddon Special.

Are the paladins the proper vessels for the IFCC?

Wasn't fetching a vessel Sabine's job? None of the Voices sounds like her. (To address the question, I'd go with yes and no. The Order trust them, but 1) I think the archfiends would have a hard time playing O-Chul convincingly and 2) O-Chul possesses a considerable amount of mental fortitude.)

[BarakDeathBlade]

Robert A. Heinlein was, for his time, "a flaming liberal" as described by his peers. (I suspect that in modern parlance he'd be somewhere along the American Libertarian spectrum). He explored a wide variety of social and political topics in his writing. If you can't handle the "politics" in Starship Troopers then perhaps you missed the point. I agree with you, though, that at it's core it's a coming of age story as regards a young man entering the military. There were a metric ton of stories like that which came out after WW II in America. Battle Cry and Biloxi Blues are but two that come to mind that were also made into films.

Verhooven can go fly a kite, as far as I'm concerned, but I suppose that's a matter of taste. {I have a similar, strongly negative reaction to Peter Jackson as regards the artistic atrocity that he inflicted on The Hobbit ...}

My take is, Peter Jackson at least _read_ TLOTR, he just didn't understand it.

Verhooven brags about not having read the book.

[ebarde]

I definetly think this is sorta like a brains and brawn type of situation. So 2 people, one that's probably a humanoid and other that is very big and can carry 2 paladins single handedly. The position of the baloon so far away from the bodies make me think that only one person was carrying them, and the distance between the two makes me come to the conclusion that they're being carried by someone very big.

[Goblin_Priest]

Well, I'm sorry, but the general message of "lets nuke them before they nuke us" is not particularly palatable to me. Especially given who "them" is and how they are equated to bugs. But no, I do not think I missed the point. I think the point is quite nakedly honest about where they stand in the politics of the time when it was written. And it is despicable regardless.

But this is really not the place to talk about it.

As to Verhoeven, I think I could easily throw back that "perhaps you missed the point" accusation back at ya. Starship Troopers, like Robocop, are excellent movies, and clearly "go" together. But, again, hard to talk about why without digging into the political ideas they are eviscerating.


You seldom recommend Heinlein because of the plot, which exists mostly in service of getting you from one author rant to the next. Generally, SiaSL is recommended by those who first learnt of polyamory and communal living from it, or find it to be a great selling point for that lifestyle. It became a sort of holy book for a lot of the hippies of the 60s. As I said, it's not that it was that bad for the time it was written, its that it has aged badly, and now a lot of the things that were new and advanced at the time are now backwards and problematic. As with any other book written sufficiently in the past, you do need to keep that in mind and much can be forgiven or at least udnerstood as a product of its time, but still: fair warning, I'd say.

Grey Wolf

Starship Troopers is satyrical. It mocks fascism, it does not promote it. I find it brilliantly subversive, much more than anything Rian Johnson throws at us.

Also no idea where you get the "nuke them before they nuke us", unless that's something in some book and not in the movie. They attack the bugs in retaliation after the bugs attack them, which itself is retaliatory over their colonisation/expansion. The allegory for the war is much closer to an "americans versus native americans" than some nuke or pre-emptive strike scenario.

[KorvinStarmast]

Well, I'm sorry, but the general message of "lets nuke them before they nuke us" is not particularly palatable to me.

A suggestion to go back and look at the year that the story was written, for context. While I think we are deeply into matters of taste here, I had the chance to write a paper (yikes, it's nearly 40 years ago) where I compared how two different authors - Orwell and Heinlein, in 1984 and Starship Troopers respectively - handled the problem of the warfare state. Literature class. I got an A-. Yay me. A year later, in a different course, I turned in nearly the same paper (with a few mods) to a different prof - political science class - and got an A. Yay me twice!

But this is really not the place to talk about it.

You are right, gettin' close to the edge.

As to Verhoeven, I think I could easily throw back that "perhaps you missed the point" accusation back at ya.

No, I don't think you can. He didn't bother to read the book. If he had his own story tell, then write that story, and tell it. After which I can only offer De gustibus non est disputandum

SiaS ... it's not that it was that bad for the time it was written, its that it has aged badly,

Concur completely.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Starship Troopers is satyrical. It mocks fascism, it does not promote it.

Assuming (based on the below) you mean the film and not the book, yes, that is indeed my point. The book is not satyrical at all - thus why Verhoeven was unable to finish it.

Also no idea where you get the "nuke them before they nuke us", unless that's something in some book and not in the movie.

Correct.

A suggestion to go back and look at the year that the story was written, for context.

I did. It still suggest unending war by the state on anyone else who might compete for resources, and explicitly advocates the use of nuclear weapons as first strike.

No, I don't think you can. He didn't bother to read the book. If he had his own story tell, then write that story, and tell it. After which I can only offer De gustibus non est disputandum

No. He tried to read the book, realised it read exactly like propaganda pieces he was given when he was a kid in WWII occupied Netherlands, was disgusted by the obvious overtones, and was unable to finish it. Thus his decision to create a satyrical movie based on the movies he watched when he was the same age in the same circumstances. That is the story he wanted to tell.

And this is the last I will say about this, because for people who keep telling me "I'm missing the point" and to "look at the year", you don't seem to be taking your own advice when it comes to complaining about Verhoeven's circumstances and I'm getting angry about the double standard.

GW

[Goblin_Priest]

Basically all we know about Tiamat is that she's a consummate schemer. Also, the majority of Team Red voted yes on Armageddon Special.

"Destroy the world" equates death, though, and not cessation of existence. Their speech bubbles aren't indicative of them dying, but rather of them being undone.

Which sounds more like an IFCC style of plot than a deity-sponsored one, because the gods don't like throwing their final inter-world meal out the window.

[Goblin_Priest]

Assuming (based on the below) you mean the film and not the book, yes, that is indeed my point. The book is not satyrical at all - thus why Verhoeven was unable to finish it.


Correct.

GW

That's double-plus ironic.

[KorvinStarmast]

No. He tried to read the book, realised it read exactly like propaganda pieces he was given when he was a kid in WWII occupied Netherlands.

Trapped by his own biases and prejudices, it looks like to me. Looks like he didn't just have issues, he has the whole subscription.

... you don't seem to be taking your own advice when it comes to complaining about Verhoeven's circumstances and I'm getting angry about the double standard.

Please don't get angry. Heinlein's context was the post WW II Cold War (his sloppy UN model of Earth being what it was for that book) while Veerhoven's (as described) was during WW II.
Those are not the same worlds. The contexts do not match. Meanwhile, Orwell's and Heinlein's did fit well enough for the purposes of my paper - but that was for an academic grade, not for money.
Beyond that, I am not required to agree with you, nor with Veerhoven; we are having a conversation here. If things are getting too charged, we are certainly better off letting this go.

[Petrocorus]

Well, I'm sorry, but the general message of "lets nuke them before they nuke us" is not particularly palatable to me. Especially given who "them" is and how they are equated to bugs. But no, I do not think I missed the point. I think the point is quite nakedly honest about where they stand in the politics of the time when it was written. And it is despicable regardless.

Who are "they" in this instance? (Emphasis mine)

As to Verhoeven, I think I could easily throw back that "perhaps you missed the point" accusation back at ya. Starship Troopers, like Robocop, are excellent movies, and clearly "go" together. But, again, hard to talk about why without digging into the political ideas they are eviscerating.

I myself often considered Robocop, Total Recall, and Starship Troopers to be a Verhoeven trilogy about politics.

As with any other book written sufficiently in the past, you do need to keep that in mind and much can be forgiven or at least udnerstood as a product of its time, but still: fair warning, I'd say.

If we didn't take books and works of fiction in general as products of their times and within their contexts, we'll have to throw away maybe 80% of fictions.
Which incidently is what some people would like us to do.

[KorvinStarmast]

If we didn't take books and works of fiction in general as products of their times and within their contexts, we'll have to throw away maybe 80% of fictions. Which incidently is what some people would like us to do.

Which brings us to a book which may have aged slightly b better: Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury. Dystopian lit done well. (Anyone see the 2018 HBO version of this? Is it any good?)

This conversation has been far better than the usual Star Wars digressions, but it may have reached a culminating point.