OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[ebarde]

Why not a Star Trek digression. We had a Harry Potter one that turned into Star Wars a bit ago, so I think this is a natural direction to go lol

[WanderingMist]

Who are "they" in this instance? (Emphasis mine)


I myself often considered Robocop, Total Recall, and Starship Troopers to be a Verhoeven trilogy about politics.


If we didn't take books and works of fiction in general as products of their times and within their contexts, we'll have to throw away maybe 80% of fictions.
Which incidentally is what some people would like us to do.

90% of what is written is awful anyway (to paraphrase Theodore Sturgeon), and interpretation of symbolism in any work of fiction, from books to movies to dreams, reflects more on the interpreter than it does on the work itself.

[bunsen_h]

Who are "they" in this instance? (Emphasis mine)

Starship Troopers explicitly draws a parallel between the war with the Bugs and the historical-for-them conflict with the "Chinese Hegemony". Part way through chapter 11. One of those "total communism, willing to casually throw away the soldiers they breed and put no value on" things.

[Petrocorus]

Which brings us to a book which may have aged slightly b better: Fahrenheit 451, Ray Bradbury. Dystopian lit done well. (Anyone see the 2018 HBO version of this? Is it any good?)

On my to-read list too. Along with 1984 and Brave New World.
Yeah, i know, should have read them long ago.

Starship Troopers explicitly draws a parallel between the war with the Bugs and the historical-for-them conflict with the "Chinese Hegemony". Part way through chapter 11. One of those "total communism, willing to casually throw away the soldiers they breed and put no value on" things.

Interesting. I don't remember it, but i read it long ago.
The "Chinese Hegemony"? Maybe Heinlein had some insight in the future.

and interpretation of symbolism in any work of fiction, from books to movies to dreams, reflects more on the interpreter than it does on the work itself.

I can certainly agree on that part.

[Peelee]

Brave New World.

Hey, that's also an Iron Maiden song!

[Ruck]

See, I am on Verhoeven's side on this one. I think the book is an OK military adventure story, dragged down by some rather icky politics, and thus Verhoeven made the right choice when he decided to make it satire of the war propaganda films he saw when he lived in occupied territory... since it fits like a glove.

Grey Wolf

The Verhoeven Starship Troopers rules; I'll back you on this.

I myself often considered Robocop, Total Recall, and Starship Troopers to be a Verhoeven trilogy about politics.

Robocop is probably one of the most accurate visions of our future put to cinema. Also has one of the funniest scenes I've ever seen in film.

[Peelee]

Robocop is probably one of the most accurate visions of our future put to cinema.

I disagree.

Also has one of the funniest scenes I've ever seen in film.

I disagree.

[RatElemental]

Definitely think Futurama beats out Robocop on humor, but I'm a bit baffled why you'd think it wins on realism too.

[Peelee]

Definitely think Futurama beats out Robocop on humor, but I'm a bit baffled why you'd think it wins on realism too.

Because I think I'm funny.

[Petrocorus]

Gosh...i miss Futurama.

Robocop is probably one of the most accurate visions of our future put to cinema. Also has one of the funniest scenes I've ever seen in film.

You state something like this and don't care for pointing out what scene you're referring to?

[KorvinStarmast]

You state something like this and don't care for pointing out what scene you're referring to?

I never 'got' nor 'grokked' the fascination for that movie. It wasn't very good. But I guess it made enough money compared to what was spent on it, so I suppose that is a measure of success.

More or less Flashdance for dystopian films?

[skim172]

More or less Flashdance for dystopian films?

I'm glad I'm not the only one who perceived Flashdance as a terrifying warning of humanity's dark future.

[Ruck]

I disagree.

I don't get what Futurama has to do with Robocop having one of the funniest scenes on film.

You state something like this and don't care for pointing out what scene you're referring to?

Spoiler: Robocop (1987)

Show

The ED-109 malfunctioning and absolutely massacring that junior exec, and everyone being remarkably blasé about it.

[Peelee]

I don't get what Futurama has to do with Robocop having one of the funniest scenes on film.

I seem to recall that Futurama produced four movies. Unless you're specifying the material cellophane, which would be unexpected.

On a barely related note, I just discovered that cellophane is wood-based and is biodegradable, which is pretty cool. Still not great, but better than I previously thought.

[Petrocorus]

I never 'got' nor 'grokked' the fascination for that movie. It wasn't very good.

To paraphrase you, maybe you just missed the point.

But I guess it made enough money compared to what was spent on it, so I suppose that is a measure of success.

No, that's the studio's measure of success for a movie, not the audience's measure of success.

More or less Flashdance for dystopian films?

Wouldn't that be Idiocracy?
As the years go by, i'm less and less sure Robocop is a dystopian film.
Heck, i'm not even sure Idiocracy is a dystopian film any more.

[danielxcutter]

On a barely related note, I just discovered that cellophane is wood-based and is biodegradable, which is pretty cool. Still not great, but better than I previously thought.

...Huh. Well, you learn something new every day, I guess.

[Peelee]

...Huh. Well, you learn something new every day, I guess.

The downside is that despite that, the production is not environmentally friendly. And I'm sure that in cinema use, the inks and materials used for the visuals and sound codes aren't all that great either. But regardless, it's better than plastic (which I initially thought it was a variety of).

[greenfunkman]

I was thinking about oots in the dark hours of the night and noticed that each of the gates had a crew of caretakers/protectors. (Apologies if this has been discussed to death already!)

Dorukan had a fully staffed dungeon, Draketooth had a clan of wizards, Azure City had a paladin order. Even the one in SoD was defended by *spoilers*.

If the pattern holds then we should definitely expect Serini to have left a crew behind to defend the gate.

[locksmith of lo]

On a barely related note, I just discovered that cellophane is wood-based and is biodegradable, which is pretty cool. Still not great, but better than I previously thought.

news to me too, but i guess the word cellophane should have tipped me off that it was derived from cellulose. apparently it's a portmanteau word of cellulose and diaphane.

[rostvoid]

news to me too, but i guess the word cellophane should have tipped me off that it was derived from cellulose. apparently it's a portmanteau word of cellulose and diaphane.

We learn so much strange and wonderful things on this forum.
Thank you Peelee

[Kornaki]

If the pattern holds then we should definitely expect Serini to have left a crew behind to defend the gate.

The whole thing is just a dungeon of monsters guarding the gate, is that not sufficient?

[Metastachydium]

"Destroy the world" equates death, though, and not cessation of existence. Their speech bubbles aren't indicative of them dying, but rather of them being undone.

Which sounds more like an IFCC style of plot than a deity-sponsored one, because the gods don't like throwing their final inter-world meal out the window.

That's a fair point, yes. But I can imagine scenarios where Tiamat is behind this business and her agents stil risk undoing. Say (and mind you, I'm just speculating here), she wants to destroy the Gate to force the hands of the Northern gods. Or she knows something if not about the world in the Rifts, then about the impact it could have on a possible future (she sees the future, after all) and she knows that while the Snarl may lash out and undo her agents were the Rift to be exposed, the world would not be immediately destroyed and something really important would be revealed.

[Goblin_Priest]

That's a fair point, yes. But I can imagine scenarios where Tiamat is behind this business and her agents stil risk undoing. Say (and mind you, I'm just speculating here), she wants to destroy the Gate to force the hands of the Northern gods. Or she knows something if not about the world in the Rifts, then about the impact it could have on a possible future (she sees the future, after all) and she knows that while the Snarl may lash out and undo her agents were the Rift to be exposed, the world would not be immediately destroyed and something really important would be revealed.

One thing that always messes with my theorycrafting is that I have no idea how many more strips to expect of this comic. I think others have an idea of how many books are still planned, but I can never actually find any reference for that when I do go looking (and probably forget every time told).

Do we have enough time for an additional god plot? Hel already took a whole bunch of strips' worth of arc. Tiamat's had prior introduction, though, being the sponsor of the Oracle, and dealing with the IFCC, and dealing with The Dark One. So her appearance would neither come out of the blue, nor necessitate as long of an arc as Hel, because she's already been in the picture for a while and it wouldn't be a random in-and-out.

So it's possible the voices aren't sure they'll cause the end of existence, just know there's a good odd of it and are pretty pessimistic. It's also possible that they expect to themselves by erased by the Snarl, without the whole world following their fate.

[Yirggzmb]

I think others have an idea of how many books are still planned, but I can never actually find any reference for that when I do go looking (and probably forget every time told).

I don't have a direct quote off hand, but I believe the official word is that this is the last book, no matter how many strips it takes or if the book ends up a door stop. Which isn't very helpful as it still leaves the number of strips up in the air.

[Petrocorus]

Spoiler: Robocop (1987)

Show

The ED-109 malfunctioning and absolutely massacring that junior exec, and everyone being remarkably blasé about it.

You mean to tell me that's not an accurate description of the corporate world?

[Peelee]

You mean to tell that's not an accurate description of the corporate world?

Yeah, I thought that was what Ruck meant by realistic.

[Metastachydium]

One thing that always messes with my theorycrafting is that I have no idea how many more strips to expect of this comic. I think others have an idea of how many books are still planned, but I can never actually find any reference for that when I do go looking (and probably forget every time told).

As per the Giant:

Yeah, it'll be seven, even if the last one looks like a phone book.

Do we have enough time for an additional god plot? Hel already took a whole bunch of strips' worth of arc. Tiamat's had prior introduction, though, being the sponsor of the Oracle, and dealing with the IFCC, and dealing with The Dark One. So her appearance would neither come out of the blue, nor necessitate as long of an arc as Hel, because she's already been in the picture for a while and it wouldn't be a random in-and-out.

We have most of a whole book, which sounds like plentyof space to expand the role of a known faction. (Needless to say, that doesn't mean it will happen/is happening.)

So it's possible the voices aren't sure they'll cause the end of existence, just know there's a good odd of it and are pretty pessimistic. It's also possible that they expect to themselves by erased by the Snarl, without the whole world following their fate.

That's my take on it.
Alternatively, you might be right and they might indeed be outsiders, in which case they would only have to expect they will die, which for them equals cessation of existence.

[KorvinStarmast]

To paraphrase you, maybe you just missed the point.

It may have to do with both taste, and being a long time reader of speculative fiction and pulps (going back to the late 60's/early 70's when I first got hooked on SF anthologies). For my money, the story wasn't a new take on anything. For some folks, that might have been their first look at that kind of story pattern. More differences in taste though, I suspect.

(I really liked Inception but plenty of people didn't care for it).

[Ruck]

You mean to tell me that's not an accurate description of the corporate world?

I didn't say it wasn't; I said it was funny.

[Petrocorus]

It may have to do with both taste, and being a long time reader of speculative fiction and pulps (going back to the late 60's/early 70's when I first got hooked on SF anthologies). For my money, the story wasn't a new take on anything. For some folks, that might have been their first look at that kind of story pattern. More differences in taste though, I suspect.

Maybe a question of generation then.