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2020-11-27, 11:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-27, 12:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Forum Wisdom
Mage avatar by smutmulch & linklele.
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2020-11-27, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Or the ones that did noticed it and disarmed it completely (and not temporarily as Haley did) didn't see any effect at all from the disarming. Maybe only the temporary disable has an effect, as a sort of "trap-within-a trap".
So they thought "meh, we can just ignore it if it makes no difference", didn't think about temporarily disabling it and thus don't see any use in mentioning it any further.Last edited by Wannes; 2020-11-27 at 12:05 PM.
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2020-11-27, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
I really like this theory.
How rigid is the "only rogues can see magical traps" rule? Roy couldn't see the line even when Haley pointed right at it and told him exactly what to look for. Team Evil has far weaker clues, but bonuses and magical enhancements.
Spoiler: for Utterly Dwarfed bonus materialIt's sad to see one of Kandro's family heirlooms being treated so cavalierly.
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2020-11-27, 12:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
if the floor changes color after the trap is activated team evil will for sure be suspicious when they find it.
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2020-11-27, 12:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
In 3.5 if familiar dies you cannot gain a new one for a year and a day (and also lose some exp). You can raise\resurrect\true resurrect old one for the usual amount of diamond dust (and it doesn't lose constitution or any abilities when raised).
Blackwing appearing out of nowhere in the old comics is a joke. It's supposed to represent players (and even DMs) ignoring familiars and even forgetting where they are supposed to be until they need them for a specific task. Note the very first comic with Blackwing in it
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2020-11-27, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-27, 12:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Huh. Interesting.
I love how they're all colour-coded!
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2020-11-27, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-27, 12:15 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Apr 2004
Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
I dunno. If using the rat skull gives them a few seconds like this, then unless Team Evil went in exactly abreast, whoever was in the back should have seen it hit whoever was I'm front. Though I don't know if we're seeing the usual function. I forget the exact rules around traps, so I don't know if she just tripped the trap or did some weird Rogue thing to it.
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2020-11-27, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Before that comic I was very skeptical of the "multidimensional stone" being more than a wizard-did-it blocker against going through the walls, but given the effect of disarming the trap it seems likely that indeed there is some sort pf shell game going on with those dungeons. It seems very likely that in the end of this dungeon is the Gate. most likely it can really be accessed from any door ( by activating "Serini mode") but even if it's dumb luck and you need to choose the right door and then disarm the trap, it's still likely to be the right door, because of the dramatic necessity.
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2020-11-27, 12:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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- May 2009
Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Books -1 through 4 are 50% off (with 1 being 75% off!). Shipping on ookodook is not that cheap but I bought all six of them and saved a ton of money. Thanks for the heads up giant!
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2020-11-27, 12:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2015
Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Attention LotR fans
Spoiler: LotRThe scouring of the Shire never happened. That's right. After reading books I, II, and III, I stopped reading when the One Ring was thrown into Mount Doom. The story ends there. Nothing worthwhile happened afterwards. Middle-Earth was saved.
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2020-11-27, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
The simple answer to this is the question "Who would be the rogue?"
It's not Redcloak. It's not Xykon. I really doubt it's MitD. Oona might have some tracking skills but she's some kind of beastmaster class, probably better at setting traps than finding them.
Logically speaking a high-level party should have a rogue but if they don't have one they don't have one.
Also Redcloak only has one eye. Might affect his ability to spot things.
My theory would be that if you trigger the trap unintentionally you don't notice it. It's supposed to be an invisible portal.
Haley didn't activate the trap, she used a method of disarming that resulted in the magic trap misfiring and exploding. It's like when Blackwing intentionally miscast Vaarsuvius's scroll to cause an explosion (#1020).
Of course this trap is significantly higher level than Vaarsuvius's scroll and would require more effort to blow up, which is why it requires Haley carefully working on it while the rest of the party discusses how to proceed (she wouldn't have to say that she 'figured it out' if it was as straightforward as triggering it with an inanimate object).
He's looking right at the line and when asked by Haley if he can see it he answers "No." He has a rough idea where it is because Haley pointed at it. Also just because everyone could see the magical glyphs in Draketooth's Dungeon doesn't mean all magic traps are visible.
Basically everything Hyoi said.
I like that last part. It would also explain why Redcloak and Xykon couldn't bypass it even if they used Truesight or whatever to detect the runes. Might have tried dispelling it and dismissed it when it didn't seem to change anything.Last edited by Worldsong; 2020-11-27 at 12:29 PM.
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2020-11-27, 12:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Sep 2020
Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
V+ 6 others (1 per 3x caster levels). As a familiar, Blackwing is a freebie.
Last edited by Akrasiel; 2020-11-27 at 12:29 PM. Reason: Clarity
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2020-11-27, 12:28 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Dec 2019
Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Some sort of portal (either always-on disableable as suggested earlier, or a portal which appears only when trap is disarmed/disabled) seems likely. Either that or multidimensionality leads to timey-whimey things (Gaia did that impressively, but it is less likely for self-aware RPG fantasy pastiche).
Last edited by Saint-Just; 2020-11-27 at 12:29 PM.
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2020-11-27, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Let's check the math on that:
"Targets: You plus one willing creature per three levels, no two of which can be more than 30 ft. apart"
So we've got V, Blackwing, Roy, Haley, Elan, Belkar, Durkon, Minrah (off-screen).
CL0: "You" - covers both V and Blackwing for free, through Share Spells.
CL3: Roy
CL6: Haley
CL9: Elan
CL12: Belkar
CL15: Durkon
CL18: Minrah
V having a CL of 18 after boosters (like Laurin's Ioun Stone) is not farfetched. So it seems the math checks out.
Belkar was definitely hit by it (panel 3).Last edited by Psyren; 2020-11-27 at 01:13 PM.
Plague Doctor by Crimmy
Ext. Sig (Handbooks/Creations)
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2020-11-27, 12:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
I don't know. Your theory surely makes the story move onward, and in that it makes sense.
But as a trap...
Let's take as an example what the order did in DCF: a trapped door (even if they were not sure it was trapped, anyway let's assume they use the same modus operandi) triggered on purpose by the meat shield. Maybe with the justification "Come on, we're plenty of healing potions."
The meat shield walks in and the trap doesn't do anything (apparently, but creates a portal secretly). Doing nothing (apparently) would be a great hint to the party that the trap did something secretly.
Instead if the trap adds a damage effect for good measure, the party will think that the damage was the purpose of the trap and will ignore the possibility of it doing something else secretly.Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2020-11-27 at 12:31 PM.
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2020-11-27, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Thanks Giant!
Team Evil would have had a high level rogue if Xykon hadn't been a total jerk all this time.Last edited by JSSheridan; 2020-11-27 at 12:39 PM.
To find in order to lose; To fall in order to stand up
To freeze in order to ignite; To find myself within, and not fear the edge
To die in order to be reborn to the new world
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2020-11-27, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Yes, because I pointed out that everyone could see the trap in Draketooth's Dungeon. I made a point of that.
Also, thank you DnD nerds! I didn't know that existed.
Now that is the more reasonable explanation. That I can buy. If the flash is the portal turning off, then that explains why there wasn't a flash when TE went in the other door. Still, I can't see an epic level sorcerer who regularly plain shifts to not notice that he just walked through a magic portal a few dozen times and never question it.
I did miss that. Okay, maybe Roy can't see it, but he also has no spot. He does say he can't see the first one, the second one he could reroll a spot check, though and maybe he did see the second one. Regardless, Oona has spot and RC may have the aforementioned detect traps spell.Last edited by Thecommander236; 2020-11-27 at 12:41 PM.
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2020-11-27, 12:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-27, 12:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Also, I was under the impression that anyone can do a spot check, it's just you need ranks in spot to have more than a hail Mary's chance of seeing anything.
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2020-11-27, 12:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
I have long suspected and predicted that the final dungeon will incorporate all of the Scribblers' beliefs somehow, but I really like this explanation for why it would do so.
So far we've seen a rogue's deception, Kraagor's might, and the invisible creatures could be like Lirian's guardians. Maybe the trap magic is meant to resemble Durokan's belief in magic, leaving only Soon's honor left to come into play.
Also, I guess V leveled up against the Nightcrawler in Firmament, because with the +1 from the ioun stone, that would require Level 17 from the calcuations I'm seeing, and the forcecage in the tunnel was "34 hours" which would have been level 16 -- twice (level +1) from the ioun stone at the time.SpoilerI Am A: Chaotic Neutral Human Sorcerer (5th Level)
Ability Scores:
Strength - 11
Dexterity - 16
Constitution - 11
Intelligence - 15
Wisdom - 12
Charisma - 11
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2020-11-27, 12:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Maybe this is kind of an anti trap? It does not do anything (or deal some damage) if you fall for it. It does nothing if you disable or dispell it.
But Harley activated the real function by trying to bypass it. And this real function is to open a portal.
This would explain a lot.
- nobody (TE) notice any kind of spell effect, since usually, there is no effect (or some kind of effect you would expect from a trap) No plane shift or other kind of travel.
- the color of the floor changed after 'bypassing' the trap. This seems to be more likely if the dungeon leads to another pane/dimension/location NOW.
- even if TE could notice the runes (I'm not sure they can) they might just burn a dispell on it in order to render it inactive. This is especially likely if the trap has some kind of visible effect (like damage) when activated normally.
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2020-11-27, 12:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
I've got two ideas for that.
The first one is that having the meatshield try to intentionally trigger the trap (only to find that it does nothing because the line just marks where two different locations are linked by means of portal) would still require noticing the line first. If the odds are low of any intruders spotting the trap that's possibly even better than a portal which disguises itself as an explosive trap.
The second idea is that even if you notice the line but it doesn't appear to do anything when you step over it that might tip you off that it does something secretly but that would still leave you guessing what exactly the secret effect is, especially if you can't manage to disarm or sabotage it.
An important part of this would be that Serini might have been a high-level rogue but she would still have to work with ultimately limited resources. Weighing all her options she went for an approach which both fits the mindset of a rogue and which would require a high-level rogue to bypass (and there's probably many other tricks and challenges on the way, so bypassing the portal doesn't mean you've beaten the dungeon). And I believe it's been stated before that the Stickworld tends towards low-average levels (the imp at least was impressed by Vaarsuvius's level as a Wizard).
In 3.5 Spot checks don't detect traps which are meant to be hidden (so most of them). You need Trapfinding, which is a type of Search check which is unique to rogues (below Weapon Proficiency and Sneak Attack).
Find Traps allows a cleric to mimic a rogue's Trapfinding ability but it doesn't guarantee success, and most likely is not as good as a rogue of the same level (due to them investing skill points into the Search skill). On top of that finding the trap doesn't necessarily allow the cleric to disarm it.
Disarming a trap, similar to finding one, is a unique feature for Rogues where they use a Disable Device check. With magic traps dispel magic can temporarily suppress the trap, although you'd need to roll high enough (bottom of the page.).
EDIT: Correction, you don't need to be a rogue to find simple traps but given that this is an endgame level dungeon this almost definitely falls under the category of a high-level trap which requires a rogue's Trapfinding ability.
In addition, Search is an INT-based skill, which given that clerics are WIS-based means that even if they use Find Traps they don't have a very high ability modifier to help them out. In contrast, I've always found it pretty convenient to have some INT as a rogue given that INT is good for skills and rogues are meant to be skill monkeys.
Hmmm... That would be interesting although at the same time I feel like Haley might have caught that. As it is she seems to believe that it's a trap which is triggered upon stepping over it (resetting itself immediately after). Of course it could be that she's good enough to detect and activate it but not good enough to understand its exact workings... do we know how Haley compares to Serini at this point?Last edited by Worldsong; 2020-11-27 at 01:11 PM.
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2020-11-27, 01:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-27, 01:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
When Hayley triggers the portal by placing the rat skull, the skull is on both sides of the portal at the same time, i.e., it's half "ported". I think this indicates that an authorized visitor would simply tread on the exact right part of the trap as he walked in, in order to get to the "significant" dungeon.
So, maybe, plot twist - it's not that the gate is in none of the dungeons. It's effectively in all of them.
Assuming the trap is a portal of course.
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2020-11-27, 01:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
Counterpoint: this isn't Draketooth's Dungeon, even in Draketooth's Dungeon nobody could see them until Haley pointed them out, and regardless, different traps don't have to function similarly. Just because the audience gets to see the traps as a visual guide by the author does not mean characters csn see them, just as we saw invisibly Vaarsuvius in Xykon's tower, but Xykon couldn't see them.
If the characters act like they can't see the trap, you should probably believe them.Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-27 at 01:33 PM.
Cuthalion's art is the prettiest art of all the art. Like my avatar.
Number of times Roland St. Jude has sworn revenge upon me: 2
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2020-11-27, 01:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
It's 3.5 - Search, rather than Spot, is used for trap detection. And even then, you need a rogue if the trap is tough enough.
I find it unlikely Redcloak wouldn't be prepping Find Traps though. Perhaps the dimensional stone interferes with that magic in some way that can't fool Trapfinding?Plague Doctor by Crimmy
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2020-11-27, 01:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread
This has already been mentioned, but there's no means for TE to find this trap. Find Traps is possible, but RC definitely has very few ranks, which would make finding this trap difficult.
For those who mentioned "RC definitely would have obsessed over it", he is also a heavyweight in confirmation bias. "This doesn't do anything, it's just a line" is much more likely.
Also, I had to make sure Minrah was coming along. I was worried!