OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[Goblin_Priest]

Level 18? V + 6 other creatures. One creature every 3 levels means V would need a ECL of 18.

Oh, nice, so V finally has level 9 spell slots?

[The MunchKING]

Oh, nice, so V finally has level 9 spell slots?

Well it could be ECL but still not actual caster level, because she has the Ioun Stone amongst any other things she has.

[rTicWolf]

The floor colour changed... I'm thinking maybe the corridor got magically swapped with another one? Hopefully not the same one Xykon and Team Evil are in right now...

Also, R.I.P the door... it clearly has Xs where its eyes should be...

[mormon_soldier]

Also it's a raven with an orange beak!

They have to paint the tip like that to distinguish it from a real bird.

[Silent Wrangler]

Well, Serini is/was a rogue. It would be reasonable that her dungeon would incorporate having rogue abilities as a component for success. Plus, if she had a similar mindset to Haley and Girard, layers of obfuscation could definitely be at play. A few threads back it was even discussed that layers of deception were a recurrent theme in the comic (Xykon's body doubles, for exemple).

Beyond there being a portal, my theory is that not disabling the trap puts you in "Kraagor mode", where the dungeon is a series of combat challenges that need to be brute forced through Barabrian style, as anyone tracking the gates while being aware of their lore would expect... But those are only to keep you busy until whoever watches the gate can observe and intervene.

Disabling the trap puts you into "Serini mode", which might be more tuned to the skillset of a rogue, or at least a balanced party that includes one. That would play into Serini's possible mindset too: wishing for a functional whole party in order to overcome a holistic suite of challenges, rather than how her beloved group ended up fracturing with everyone focusing on their own preference for their dungeon. In Serini's mind, being worthy of reaching the gate might demand a whole cooperating party, not a single kind of skills.

Your theory has my support. Also checks out with disabled trap being inactive for 3 rounds --- given width of the tunnel, just enough for a party of 5-6 to cross.

[Peelee]

Also, R.I.P the door... it clearly has Xs where its eyes should be...

I, for one, greatly appreciated this joke.

[B. Pseudonym]

What do you suppose is at the end of this tunnel?

It seems a little early for the Gate, but then again, the whole deal with the rift planet is probably going to take up a decent chunk of plot, so maybe it'll be brought back into focus earlier than expected.

The disembodied voices and captured paladins are another fairly obvious pick, but they seemed to be going up when they left, so maybe not.

Probably the most out-there theory I'm willing to put forward is that Serini Toormuck is still alive, and living in the tunnel complex. It's unlikely, but halflings can live for like a hundred and fifty years in 3.5, so it might be possible depending on long ago the crayon segments with the Order of the Scribble took place.
...do we actually know how long ago those were? The main hint I can think of is that Girard was pretty thoroughly decomposed, but I think that could've happened in well under a hundred and fifty years.

[hamishspence]

Probably the most out-there theory I'm willing to put forward is that Serini Toormuck is still alive, and living in the tunnel complex. It's unlikely, but halflings can live for like a hundred and fifty years in 3.5, so it might be possible depending on long ago the crayon segments with the Order of the Scribble took place.
...do we actually know how long ago those were?

"66 years ago" or slightly less:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

[Bedinsis]

Disabling the trap puts you into "Serini mode", which might be more tuned to the skillset of a rogue, or at least a balanced party that includes one. That would play into Serini's possible mindset too: wishing for a functional whole party in order to overcome a holistic suite of challenges, rather than how her beloved group ended up fracturing with everyone focusing on their own preference for their dungeon. In Serini's mind, being worthy of reaching the gate might demand a whole cooperating party, not a single kind of skills.

Like many other people in this thread, I really like this theory. It also makes sense that she'd go by what she thought collectively the party would do, since the canon explanation so far is that she designed a dungeon based on Kraagor's, aka. not her own beliefs.

I have long suspected and predicted that the final dungeon will incorporate all of the Scribblers' beliefs somehow, but I really like [Raven777's] explanation for why it would do so.

So far we've seen a rogue's deception, Kraagor's might, and the invisible creatures could be like Lirian's guardians. Maybe the trap magic is meant to resemble Durokan's belief in magic, leaving only Soon's honor left to come into play.

Soon's honor... well in his case it was manifested in him being honorbound to guard the gate in perpetuity. I wonder if

Serini wasn't really the type for retiring.

Wait... does this mean...

Probably the most out-there theory I'm willing to put forward is that Serini Toormuck is still alive, and living in the tunnel complex.

^_ The precise conclusion I just reached. Although I should say "theory", this is hardly substantive.

[Sebastian]

I was going to say exactly this.

They are the two most powerful bad guys with a shared agenda that happened to survive every other trial so far. Underlings are disposible, and rarely revived. See: Tsukiko.

Basically, they aren't the the kind to find a rogue and have him level with them, reviving him if need be. They just take whatever allies stumble upon them, for the time they last, and just move on afterwards.

You are right. if Xykon need to find traps he 'd send in some zombie. Or some minion. or some zombified minion.

No, wait, first he send minions, then make zombies of their corpses and send them forward. Much less wasteful.

[danielxcutter]

I mean Dorukan was still alive until Xykon killed him a few months before the comic started. Since as mentioned earlier halflings live longer than humans, it’s hardly impossible for Serini to be still alive, albeit probably with a considerable penalty to her physical points and on her last age category or something.

[locksmith of lo]

so does this mean that i was right for once in my rampant speculation? that the answer to this shell game is all of them, rather than none of them?

[alowe]

Sneaky sneaky. They have not entered the tomb behind the door they went through. That "trap" is a seamless teleport. That's why the floor on the other side is a different colour. Cause it's the colour of the floor of the tomb they're teleporting to.

I figure there is only one real tomb that keeps resetting and all the other's are just doors with a corridor.

Has someone been playing the original Doom?

[jayem]

Serini would want it to be secure against brute force or rogues without knowledge, while accessible by those Serini wants to let in.
We know she was a rogue who liked co-operation.
We know the team are co-operating more
We know the paladin's are somewhere (on the same side of a divide as blackwing?)

It makes some sense that she'd be able to get each of the other scribblers to help just a bit, or otherwise do something inspired by them.
It makes a lot of sense that there is some trick in the presentation of the puzzle.
It makes sense that it would be intend to require co-operation
It makes a lot of sense that regardless it will be solved by co-operation
Any shell-game trick shouldn't leave the gate vulnerable to random discovery
Any trick shouldn't be (completely) solvable by a rogue being roguey (e.g. just a spot check)

The text in the Scribbler story is odd. "Serini wasn't the type for retiring, so she built a tomb to honour Kragaar". At the time I half read that as being and then she went back adventuring (and then became Belkor's mum /s). Technically it doesn't even imply that the gate and tomb are related (though if there wasn't ever a gate it would be game over...).

[Lex]

While I agree that there must be a way to reach the gate, be it by brute force or cunning or whatever (otherwise the story would be unable to go on), I still think that this is due to the defenses not being 100% perfect rather than being a considerate choice from Serini's part in allowing the right kind of party to succeed.
Having said that, I'm still not sure about what the trap would exactly do. Teleport into the real dungeon? Give access to Serini's maintenance access? Prevent the monsters from escaping (in that case, it could be bad news for the bug bears...)? I can wait for the next strip.

[Hiro Quester]

I still find it somewhat doubtful that Serini would assume that only a good save-the-world team would have an advanced rogue and good teamwork, and that an evil use-the-gates-to-take-over-the-world team would lack an advanced rogue, and would not have the required levels of cooperation.

Designing the tombs’ protection system based on that assumption seems risky. The kind of risk that a rogue like Serini would avoid.

She would have redundancies on her redundancies, and contingencies on her contingencies

Edit: don’t get me wrong, I like this theory. I want it to be true. So I’m waiting for more layers of only-a-good-team-would-be-able-to-solve-this type puzzles, curious what they will be.

[Hiro Quester]

Well it could be ECL but still not actual caster level, because she has the Ioun Stone amongst any other things she has.

Would V lose a caster level for their spells if Blackwing, with the Ioun stone, is outside on watch, and so out of range?

[Ezekiel]

That is quite the rat head!

I'm very excited to see where all this stuff with the trap goes. I also love the little passive-aggressive telepathy in this strip.

If I remember correctly it's an osquip's head.

[Metastachydium]

Spoiler: Blackwing isn't actually a raven, he's a Eurasian blackbird.

It's gonna break his heart when he finds out the truth...



"A blackbird!? That's not even Corvus! I'm but a common thrush!"

Nah, he's not built like a thrush (or a raven for that matter). Obviously, he's a chough hybrid (so technically a corvid) with an ongoing identity crisis.

[bunsen_h]

E l an should have Prestidigitated Blackwing to be blue or white or Grey. Sky camo, basically.

I like that idea. "Not a lot of birds at the North Pole" makes Blackwing rather noticeable as a tiny black dot in a sky full of nothing but light colour, apart from the occasional yrthak flier. Elsewhere, there would be other small flying things around.

[BruceGee]

If Oona has noticed it, she noticed it long before Team Evil arrived, it didn't seem to do anything, and thus she didn't see it worth mentioning.

I wonder if Oona might know about the trap, but feel no obligation to mention it. She has no particular interest in finding the Gate, after all -- she's just along for the EP and treasure from clearing out all the tunnels.

I wouldn't be surprised if the MitD wasn't the only one on team evil who is playing dumb for their own ends, in other words.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Why would an evil team not have a rogue smart enough to bypass a trap? It would seem strange that this skill is the key to finding the gate.

Unless it requires a particular method of trap disabling, and Serini’s method of key- design and Hayley’s method of trap disabling just coincidentally match?

It's not a matter of having a particular "style" or being "smart" enough; it's a matter of having a good enough Search and Disable Device skill (which are admittedly both Int-based skills), and the Trapfinding ability that lets you disable magical traps. Team Evil has a sorcerer, a cleric, a...druid?...and a big friendly monster. None of them have either Disable Device or Search as class skills. And magical traps are f*ing hard to find and disable—they can't just grab an apprentice from the local Goblin Thieves' Guild and call it a day. They would need a high-level rogue to find and disable the traps, which requires expecting that there would be a lot of nasty magical traps alongside the monsters—which certainly wasn't reflected in the description Soon got of her Gate's defenses, and if she was clever she would have left the traps out of her diary.


To summarize in less game-ey terms: Team Evil doesn't have someone who can deal with magical traps because that's a very specialized skill and they didn't expect magical traps.

[Ghosty]

They have to paint the tip like that to distinguish it from a real bird.

"I understood that reference."

So, when TE tracks the Order to this door (because Belkar didn't have enough time to sufficiently obscure their trail), do we think that when the Order looks behind them, they can see TE walk through the door? Or will the Order not see anything at all besides another dungeon corridor?

[ratfox]

By curiosity, is the dead rat an actual D&D reference, like the bat guano? Or is it just a random item?

[Petrocorus]

I still find it somewhat doubtful that Serini would assume that only a good save-the-world team would have an advanced rogue and good teamwork, and that an evil use-the-gates-to-take-over-the-world team would lack an advanced rogue, and would not have the required levels of cooperation.

I agree.
The Vector Legion is a notable example of an evil party who would use the gates to their own ends if they could and who has (or had) good teamwork and may have a rogue.

Would V lose a caster level for their spells if Blackwing, with the Ioun stone, is outside on watch, and so out of range?

No. The Ioun Stone don't give additional spells. It only improves the effective caster level for the purpose of calculating the spells' effect and caster level checks.

[bunsen_h]

To summarize in less game-ey terms: Team Evil doesn't have someone who can deal with magical traps because that's a very specialized skill and they didn't expect magical traps.

And the traps have never done anything obvious. If they were set up properly -- that is, they didn't do anything unless they were messed with by a skilled rogue -- Team Evil never had any sign that they should be looking for traps there. Now... there's the partially-obscured trail leading towards the doors, and the mummified osquip skull (a tunnel dweller, arguably a normal creature at that location?) with an underlying scent of generations of dwarves (if that scent can be detected under that of the skull itself) showing some signs of "blast" damage. It's not a lot to go on, but it's a clue that something odd happened at that location.

EDIT:

By curiosity, is the dead rat an actual D&D reference, like the bat guano? Or is it just a random item?

It's from the bonus material in Utterly Dwarfed. It's a mummified osquip skull.

[BarakDeathBlade]

So does Blackwing make it back in time?

What's his air speed?

He has a bauble, is he laden or unladen?

[bunsen_h]

And the traps have never done anything obvious. If they were set up properly -- that is, they didn't do anything unless they were messed with by a skilled rogue -- Team Evil never had any sign that they should be looking for traps there. Now... there's the partially-obscured trail leading towards the doors, and the mummified osquip skull (a tunnel dweller, arguably a normal creature at that location?) with an underlying scent of generations of dwarves (if that scent can be detected under that of the skull itself) showing some signs of "blast" damage. It's not a lot to go on, but it's a clue that something odd happened at that location.

On further thought: they've left a clear trail to the first door they entered, and a partially-obscured trail from there to this one. Which muddies the water considerably: what level of bluff are they playing? Did they really double back? Did they choose some other route altogether?

I don't suppose there's any magic along the lines of "scry the recent history of a location", AKA "video surveillance"?

[jayem]

I still find it somewhat doubtful that Serini would assume that only a good save-the-world team would have an advanced rogue and good teamwork, and that an evil use-the-gates-to-take-over-the-world team would lack an advanced rogue, and would not have the required levels of cooperation.

Designing the tombsÂ’ protection system based on that assumption seems risky. The kind of risk that a rogue like Serini would avoid.

Yes,
It does make sense that the order having both those features, enables them to be more likely to succeed despite Serini's designs, and aesthetically makes a nice story. But it can't be the whole picture.

While I totally think Serini's Rogue&Co-operation is going to be important, and the groups Rogue&Co-operation is going to be important, it can't be everything.

The rogue out-rogueing the rogue can only get you so far (especially if you are following the first rogues footsteps). And if there is no reason at all why all the same things couldn't be done by an evil rogue, that makes an unsatisfying ending.

As regards the co-operation side it (seems like it) has to be in two mostly unconnected ways. Evil being fundamentally selfish does at least make more sense...
(with a possibility that each member of the scribble has a contribution that is worked round by each member of the stick, but I can't see that being intentional)

[Badend]

The rat head was left on the trap line, half over. If the trap line is in fact an invisible portal, that means when it activates again the rat head may be cut in half, or at least appear to exist only on one side of the portal. That would certainly let team evil figure out what is happening.