OOTS #1220 - The Discussion Thread

[mehs]

Rereading it, Haley does mention that she needed to cover a very specific part of the trap to "disarm" it, but I still find it hard to believe that RC hasn't noticed the line and researched it. People are seeing you have to be a Rogue to find it, but Roy can see it just fine once it was pointed out to him. People might also bring up that there was no flash of light when TE went into the other door and that the ight only flashes when you "disarm" the trap like Haley. I'm not sure what to believe, rethinking it, but I feel a simple spot check would reveal the line to non-rogues. If that's the case, RC wouldn't just let it go. Even if you need a rogue to even notice the line, they have so much detect magic spells, they would notice a dimensional portal even it sent them into a hell pit full of monster spawn.

It's possible that RC or Xykon just decided "meh, it doesn't hurt us so who cares", but RC devised the shell game. He would investigate those lines. Maybe they DID have a rogue from the bugbear camp that showed them how to disarm the traps, but he died in one of the dungeons before Team Paladin arrived. We don't know. It's not like the zombie that TE would make from his corpse would survive long in conditions where Xykon is gaining experience from "some of those ugly bastards".

Reread the page before, Roy DID NOT notice it, even after it was pointed out. He trusts Haley that it is there.

[jayem]

I wouldn't say the gates were some sort of test. But I could see this idea work in the premise of "This is what they believed would form the strongest defense". Dorukan believed in magic, Lirian believed in nature, Soon believed in honor, Girard believed in deception - and they built their defenses based on what they believed. Not because they were testing anyone, but simply because they believed this was what made the most sense.

So I could see the argument that Serini believed teamwork and diversity of approaches was the strongest of all, and constructed a dungeon defended upon that basis.

That is kind of my approach. I believe that Serini built a dungeon using who beliefs in teamwork.
But I would point out that the statements "Serini built a dungeon defended on that basis", and "Serini built a dungeon to be accessed on that basis" are two different things.

I also think, because it's a narrative arc, that the order will access the dungeon through teamwork. I am not sure how those two statements will resolve.
(one way is for Serini also to use teamwork as a proxy for goodness, another is that each member of the team can contribute to othercoming one aspect of defence, both of these are a bit corny).

I also don't believe Serini would try and defend things using a fair shell game. Nor will her solution be easier (without some form of secure inside knowledge) than a fair shell game (even for a rogue).

[Ruck]

Kudos to Haley for both noticing and having a means around it. I'd like to think her specific methodology goes beyond "huck random thing in there and set it off" like a goober, and has actual rogue-trap specific connotations that couldn't be blundered into by any novice or trundling minion who happened to get lucky. That head isn't something she'd carry without good reason - that it plays into her professional craft makes more sense than not.

Well, I agree that Haley is probably rather skilled, but we do have a reason why she's carrying the head; as several people have noted already, a bonus strip from the last book explains this.

[BruceGee]

As for her lack of a balanced party, maybe she made some new friends. After all, she's shown shouting at someone offscreen for a brief gag in the crayon segments. If I remember correctly, it's showing the construction of the Tomb, and she's saying something like "yeah, just set the purple worms down over there." I'll admit that that was pretty clearly a gag panel, but still- one halfling rogue couldn't have built the whole tomb. Maybe she knows a couple spellcasters now?

My theory is that the green voice in #1189 is Serini, (I'm sure others have guessed this, but I wasn't following the forums at the time) and the orange voice is her ally -- specifically, an ancient Good dragon.
Evidence for Serini:
1. A poison like the one used on O-chul would make most sense coming from a high-level rogue.
2. Meeting an original Scribbler would be dramatically appropriate, and would give the Order an opportunity to learn a lot of "behind the scenes" info about them.
3. As was said earlier in this thread, Dorukan, a human, was alive until recently, and halflings live longer. Also, what is there up at the pole to kill her? She should be presumed alive unless proven dead.
Evidence for Dragon:
1. Dragons usually have magic. We know that Serini had some kind of access to magic, both from the rune trap and (assuming she is green-voice) invisibility.
2. In #1186, green voice says "grab them" to red voice. In the next panel, the the two paladins look like they are being carried and are rather far apart. Either they are being carried by two flying invisible things, or one large flying invisible thing. What is large and has magic?
3. The quote above about putting down purple worms. What can carry purple worms?
4. It seems very likely that red voice, Serini's ally, is a new character. This late in the story, it doesn't make sense to introduce a new powerful humanoid spellcaster with a whole tangle of motivations, especially as a sidekick. A noble steed, however -- that makes sense.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Rogues (and only rogues) can disable magic traps. Magic traps beaten by a high enough disable device check can be temporarily bypassed instead. What if our tricky dungeon creator rigged a spell/trap that would only work if bypassed by a skilled enough rogue?

Someone barreling through wouldnt get to the right area.

Someone disabling traps wouldnt get to the right area.

Someone bypassing a resetable trap would.

Combine that with the shell game of 100 doors and you have the 'rock isn't hidden under any of the cups" scenario. It would take a very long time for anyone to figure out that they arent eliminating wrong options.

Still doesn't answer the first objection. If the point of the defenses is to keep anybody from getting to the Gates, why include a gaping security hole that lets somebody get to the Gate?

[InvisibleBison]

4. It seems very likely that red voice, Serini's ally, is a new character. This late in the story, it doesn't make sense to introduce a new powerful humanoid spellcaster with a whole tangle of motivations, especially as a sidekick. A noble steed, however -- that makes sense.

Why on earth would you think that a dragon would have any fewer motivations than a humanoid? Especially since that completely contradicts how dragons have been depicted both in OOTS specifically and in all of fiction in general.

[Wunderhund]

Y'all have it backwards. Way back in #277, Shojo says that Serini designed this dungeon to "reflect his [Kraagor's] belief in the power of physical might." That means that the only way to get to Kraagor's Gate is to not use any rogue abilities, or magic, or shortcuts of any kind to get through. The only way through is physical force, and lots of it.

As soon as you bypass that trap at the door, you are redirected into a generic dungeon instance that does not lead to the Gate at all. There are probably other tests like this where taking the easy path is the wrong one. Serini's deisgn with the multiple doors isn't a misdirection like Girard's illusions; probably every door leads to the Gate, but only if you go toe-to-toe with every monster, trap, and difficulty along the way. This is what Xykon, Redcloak, et al have not yet figured out, because they're too clever for such a straightforward setup.

Shojo also said that Serini was going to fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, so whatever final monster is guarding the actual Gate is going to be something even Xykon's team would have trouble with...

[Kornaki]

You seem to think they aren't currently fighting the dungeon all the way to the end before giving up and moving on to the next one, which seems like a crazy theory to have.

[Hiro Quester]

Y'all have it backwards. Way back in #277,

Shojo says that Serini designed this dungeon to "reflect his [Kraagor's] belief in the power of physical might." That means that the only way to get to Kraagor's Gate is to not use any rogue abilities, or magic, or shortcuts of any kind to get through. The only way through is physical force, and lots of it.

This is what the Paladins were led to believe, by Serini. It’s a fake-out, what a rogue would want everyone to believe, so people try to brute-force their way through.

Like Hayley’s point about a shell game. It’s a ruse that relies on the mark’s acceptance of the rules presented to him.

The actual route to the gate requires playing a different game altogether, using a rogue’s finesse, in temporarily bypassing traps.

[understatement]

Why would there be any route to the gate at all? Serini's dungeon is unique in that there's multiple passageways (and it's undoubtedly the largest out of all the Gates). She doesn't need to be near the Gate to defend it.

Instead, all she would need is a quick route to a rune/item that would destroy the Gate if she has to, similar to Dorukan's rune. This way, the Order would be portaled into an "empty" dungeon that would lead straight to the rune, which won't be something any evil teams would actively search for.

My two cents.

[Schroeswald]

I feel like it's definitely not going to take just Haley doing this to get to the gate. It's clearly a worse defense than the original one. That's why all the gates not being hidden anywhere but where it actually is have not worked for me, hoping that literally anyone who could ever approach the gate doesn't bother to scan around the valley or ever include a decently leveled rogue is a much worse strategy than hoping that they don't consist of a high enough level party to go through the whole gate complex without being destroyed. The trap is very likely another layer, you also need to be smart in addition to being strong, but the whole thing can't rely on that. However the Order and Team Evil make it to this gate, it will be through their unique properties as a team and not just having a rogue or being able to think slightly sneakily.

[BruceGee]

Why on earth would you think that a dragon would have any fewer motivations than a humanoid? Especially since that completely contradicts how dragons have been depicted both in OOTS specifically and in all of fiction in general.

The way they are depicted in fiction (Tolkien mostly, but going back to Beowulf) is that dragons seem to be perfectly happy to lie around on their hoard in an out-of-the-way spot for centuries until someone shows up to bother them, whereupon they make a ruckus. Even the highly intelligent ones mostly seem to want
a) treasure
b) to be left alone
c) vengeance on anyone who fails b
This describes two of the three dragons we've seen in OotS so far (the one at the top of the Draketooth family tree, admittedly, seems to have had...other motivations).

I suppose there is a more recent literary tradition of dragons banding together, making alliances, playing politics, and that sort of thing, but it's hardly true in "all of fiction."

Powerful humanoid wizards tend to make a ruckus for most of their lives. People tell stories about them -- they feature prominently in history books. They require elaborate backstories. Dragons don't.

We've also been given some pretty strong hints that the protagonists and antagonists of the comic are among the highest level humanoids with combat classes in the world right now. But there will still always be monsters out there that can give them a challenge, and dragons are monsters.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Why would there be any route to the gate at all?

If it was at all feasible to completely eliminate all routes to the gate, why didn't any of the others do that? Why not build mountains of this impregnable rock around every gate, without any way to get there?

Answer: because there must be a reason why he scribblers couldn't just do that - they must have foreseen valid reasons why they or their successors would need to be able to reach the gates. For example, maintenance but feel free to suggests other reasons.

GW

[InvisibleBison]

The way they are depicted in fiction (Tolkien mostly, but going back to Beowulf) is that dragons seem to be perfectly happy to lie around on their hoard in an out-of-the-way spot for centuries until someone shows up to bother them, whereupon they make a ruckus. Even the highly intelligent ones mostly seem to want
a) treasure
b) to be left alone
c) vengeance on anyone who fails b
This describes two of the three dragons we've seen in OotS so far (the one at the top of the Draketooth family tree, admittedly, seems to have had...other motivations).

I suppose there is a more recent literary tradition of dragons banding together, making alliances, playing politics, and that sort of thing, but it's hardly true in "all of fiction."

Okay, yes, "all of fiction" was a bit of hyperbole. However:

dragons are monsters.

This is simply not true in OOTS.

[Grand Arbiter]

Y'all have it backwards. Way back in #277, Shojo says that Serini designed this dungeon to "reflect his [Kraagor's] belief in the power of physical might." That means that the only way to get to Kraagor's Gate is to not use any rogue abilities, or magic, or shortcuts of any kind to get through. The only way through is physical force, and lots of it.

The exact words used for Serini's panel are as follows:

Even though it had been her idea, Serini wasn't really the type for retiring.

She decided that she would build a tomb for Kraagor, and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect his belief in physical might.

Serini's panel specifies nothing about the gate defenses. She only told Soon, and by extension the Sapphire Guard, about how she would prepare Kraagor's tomb. I find it very believable she omitted the gate details; withholding information doesn't require a bluff check afaik and the tomb statement was true.

A supporting detail is the fact that Girard's hatred/distrust of Soon led to him entrusting his gate coordinates with her, and he was confident she wouldn't spill the secret. If the super-paranoid Gerard trusted her to keep his gate's location secret from Soon, she could easily keep her own secret(s).

[understatement]

If it was at all feasible to completely eliminate all routes to the gate, why didn't any of the others do that? Why not build mountains of this impregnable rock around every gate, without any way to get there?

Answer: because there must be a reason why he scribblers couldn't just do that - they must have foreseen valid reasons why they or their successors would need to be able to reach the gates. For example, maintenance but feel free to suggests other reasons.

GW

Maybe? For the other gates the Scribblers themselves were immensely crucial to its defense, considering they settled down and dedicated their lives to them. Not so much for Serini; she's not an active part of the defense and none of Kraagor's gate hinges on any specific group of people.

[Raven777]

and none of Kraagor's gate hinges on any specific group of people.

Well, except for our two invisible friends.

I find it easier to believe they are the local gate keepers rather than some outsiders, until new information confirms their status either way.

[tanonev]

Still doesn't answer the first objection. If the point of the defenses is to keep anybody from getting to the Gates, why include a gaping security hole that lets somebody get to the Gate?

Because that's not the point of the defenses. "The party agreed that the gates could not be allowed to fall into the hands of evil.". The Order of the Scribble knew they weren't immortal, and bad blood notwithstanding, at least some of them knew they weren't infallible. With sufficient wisdom (Wisdom?) one should be able to recognize that in the future, someone who isn't connected to the Order of the Scribble might need to get to a Gate for a good yet unforeseen reason, and making indiscriminate defenses is incompatible with that in that it means power (physical, mental, magical, social) rather than motivation (respect, goodness, honor, family, teamwork) becomes the determining factor for access.

As a simple example, if your goal is to defend an artifact against Evil, putting a ward around it that grants -5 to all Evil creatures and +5 to all Good creatures is generally (though not universally) more effective at achieving your goal than putting a ward around it that just grants -5 to all creatures.

[Dion]

This is simply not true in OOTS.

Depends on your definition of monster. Grendel’s mom was certainly a monster. Didn’t stop her from having relatives, or loving her kid, or trying to get revenge on her kids killer.

Still a monster.

[locksmith of lo]

The exact words used for Serini's panel are as follows:

Serini's panel specifies nothing about the gate defenses. She only told Soon, and by extension the Sapphire Guard, about how she would prepare Kraagor's tomb. I find it very believable she omitted the gate details; withholding information doesn't require a bluff check afaik and the tomb statement was true.

yes, thank you! nor is there any indication that the tomb is where he fell either.

[BruceGee]

Depends on your definition of monster. Grendel’s mom was certainly a monster. Didn’t stop her from having relatives, or loving her kid, or trying to get revenge on her kids killer.

Still a monster.

OK, yes, just because someone is a monster doesn't mean they can't have complex motivations or character growth (eg. the MONSTER in the darkness).

But part of being a monster in a D&D setting is that we don't question its backstory too much. "Hi, I'm Serini and this is the polar drake Feerkin that I befriended after my adventuring group broke up, and he helped me build this dungeon" doesn't need a whole lot more explanation. "Hi, I'm Serini and this is my friend Foozblat the Wizard, who I met...somewhere...and he was doing...something...and before that he came from...somewhere" just requires a heckuva lot more story to explain what he's doing up there.

Monsters, by definition, come from outside our social order, so we don't have to worry about all that stuff.

[danielxcutter]

On the one hand, I do think that's rather reductive and totally not the point that was being made.

On the other hand, I do suppose it's somewhat unlikely for the Voices to be humanoids, if only because of the speech bubbles were colored. Also, even considering that Serini was one of the longer-living members of the Scribblers, she'd probably have managed other guardians to look over the Tomb even after she was gone. If they really are on her side, then there's a considerable chance that they're not mortals, or at the least beings that live really long(which indeed does include dragons).

I mean, Soon and Girard both left successors to guard their Gates after they'd died(and ain't it ironic how the two most opposed were so similar in many ways), Dorukan contracted a bunch of outsiders and probably would have made more permanent deals if he'd thought he was close to croaking, and in Lirian's case it was honestly way too early to worry about that and squatting on top of it herself likely was the most optimal choice in terms of "watch over her own Gate".

[ijuinkun]

As a birder, seeing a raven described as "very small" is funny to me.

Blackwing is of a size category that is smaller than the category named "Small". He would be in the "Tiny" (1-2 feet) or "Diminutive" (6-12 inches) category, measuring by body length rather than wingspan.

The floor colour changed... I'm thinking maybe the corridor got magically swapped with another one? Hopefully not the same one Xykon and Team Evil are in right now...

Also, R.I.P the door... it clearly has Xs where its eyes should be...

It's as dead as a doornail.

"66 years ago" or slightly less:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html

Plus the one year that's elapsed in between that scene and the present.

So does Blackwing make it back in time?

What's his air speed?

He has a bauble, is he laden or unladen?

He's a raven, not a swallow.

[danielxcutter]

Also in a world where rocs are a thing, ravens really are very small birds.

[albertonykus]

Oh, I'd surmised that it was a consequence of the setting. My amusement simply came from the contrast with how ravens are generally perceived compared to most other birds in our world. (To wit, Cornell University's bird ID website describes common ravens as "not just large but massive".)

[danielxcutter]

Oh, I'd surmised that it was a consequence of the setting. My amusement simply came from the contrast with how ravens are generally perceived compared to most other birds in our world. (To wit, Cornell University's bird ID website describes common ravens as "not just large but massive".)

Also Blackwing is one of the smallest creatures in the Order. I think only lizard!Bloodfeast is smaller, and he can't fly.

Actually do we know that Bloodfeast is a male? For all we know Belkar might have blown his Knowledge(Nature) check.

[Ghosty]

...Not so much for Serini; she's not an active part of the defense and none of Kraagor's gate hinges on any specific group of people.

So far as we know, but it hasn't been ruled out. Perhaps the first test that tells Serini & Friends that they need to defend the Gate, is successfully disabling or stalling the initial door trap?

We don't know anything about the corridor the Order has found themselves in, other than it has a different color floor than it used to. The remainder of this dungeon, wherever it leads, may have challenges as great or greater than the first set of dungeons, the ones you see if you walk over the door trap as is. For one, I find it very likely that, unlike the dungeons in the first set, the second set of dungeons are heavily laden with Epic Rogue trap stuff..

As far as her helpers go, and assuming Green Voice is her, the Orange doesn't sound the cleverest. Metallic Dragons are supposed to be extremely bright, by contrast. I'm sure there's some form of long-lived assistant that would fit though.

[Peelee]

Oh, I'd surmised that it was a consequence of the setting. My amusement simply came from the contrast with how ravens are generally perceived compared to most other birds in our world. (To wit, Cornell University's bird ID website describes common ravens as "not just large but massive".)

Rebuttal: Cornell is a barn.

[danielxcutter]

Considering Serini was presumably a mortal halfling, I doubt either voice belongs to her. Though they might work for her...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Maybe? For the other gates the Scribblers themselves were immensely crucial to its defense, considering they settled down and dedicated their lives to them. Not so much for Serini; she's not an active part of the defense and none of Kraagor's gate hinges on any specific group of people.

All the other scribblers could have set up defences without having direct access to the gate themselves - Dorukan, for example, didn't need to set up his throne room there. He could have buried the door, then created his tower around it, but without a way to get to it. If, like you claim, there is no reason to have a way to reach the gate, only to reach the self-destruct, why did every other gate remain accessible? Again, the answer is that there must have been a reason why they had to retain access. And if there was a reason for all the other gates, then it is likely true for Serini's gate too. Even if she set up defences that didn't need her there all the time so she could go adventuring, she still would need a way for her or a designated successor to be able to reach the gate just in case.

Considering Serini was presumably a mortal halfling, I doubt either voice belongs to her. Though they might work for her...

The general argument goes that, Watsonianly, that's a fair assessment. But Doyleally ("Doyly"?), if we are to get some kind of resolution to the Scribbler thread, we need to meet one of them, and Serini is the last possible one, so she seems a likely candidate. I myself would not be surprised if that jewel with Dorukan and the druid comes into play instead, though.

GW