ranged ancestral guardian - viable?

[da newt]

I had a random thought - could you build an effective / useful PC that focused on ranged attacks and ancestral guardian to quasi tank? Could they be a benefit to the party?

I was thinking max DEX>CON>WIS, Goblin for BA hide, light Xbow until multi attack then short bow, concentrating on debuffing the most dangerous foe in the battle.

Certainly not OP by any stretch, but maybe kinda fun? LOW DPR, but high survivable.

Maybe better as a MC, but then would require ST 13.

Thoughts?

[stoutstien]

Probably the best way to run AG in all honesty.

[Talionis]

3 Ancestors Barbarian/14 College of Blades Bard/X
Use your inspiration to make you harder to hit.

[Snowbluff]

I certainly think it is. Just Helping workshopped this a while ago with me over Discord. Probably the biggest problem is need Str to MC out if you want to stack on more tricks.

[RingoBongo]

3 Ancestors Barbarian/14 College of Blades Bard/X
Use your inspiration to make you harder to hit.

How would slashing flourish interact with ancestral protector? Could you disadvantage two guys?

[MaxWilson]

I had a random thought - could you build an effective / useful PC that focused on ranged attacks and ancestral guardian to quasi tank? Could they be a benefit to the party?

I was thinking max DEX>CON>WIS, Goblin for BA hide, light Xbow until multi attack then short bow, concentrating on debuffing the most dangerous foe in the battle.

Certainly not OP by any stretch, but maybe kinda fun? LOW DPR, but high survivable.

Maybe better as a MC, but then would require ST 13.

Thoughts?

Sure, yes, absolutely. I'd go to Ancestral Guardian 5 for Extra Attack. Rogue 2 + Skulker fits well with this strategy so you can gain advantage (from hiding) and stay safe. Add Moon Druid 2+ if you want a melee option (and Absorb Elements option when not raging).

Final form is Ancestral Guardian 5, Rogue 2 (Stealth and Athletics Expertise), Moon Druid 13. Feats: Skulker, Fighting Style (Archery), whatever.

[Arkhios]

Ancestral Guardian is a barbarian, right? How do you suppose a dex based barbarian and ranged combat benefits from rage, which requires using strength for melee weapon attacks?

[JackPhoenix]

Ancestral Guardian is a barbarian, right? How do you suppose a dex based barbarian and ranged combat benefits from rage, which requires using strength for melee weapon attacks?

By applying disadvantage to enemies who attack your allies. You're using that to tank, not to do more damage.

[Foxydono]

I've played a rogue thief 17 / ancestral guardian 3 and i can tell you it's very effective. Both in range and melee. The extra attack doesn't matter, your damage comes from sneak attack.

Take EA and reckless attack for triple advantage. You get profiency in dex and wis saving throws, but i took resilient con for extra AC, HP and advantage in the three major saves.

If you have a buddy that can haste you, you can take the ready action for even more sneak damage. Also, the extra attack in your first turn in combat makes the build very effective.

[Lavaeolus]

Maybe better as a MC, but then would require ST 13.

The higher levels we go, the more I think it's worth biting the 13 STR cost and multiclassing out. Now, it's sort of true that if you're only taking Barbarian 3 before switching to some other class for the rest of your career, you might not really be a "Ranged Barb" so much as "ranged character with a Barb dip", but it's noticeable that the early Barbarian levels are the ones we benefit most from.

What do we want out of Barb? The Unarmored Defense probably wouldn't be worth it on its own, but it has the potential to be nice on an archer, CON-depending. Extra Attack is not exclusive to Barbarian, but a good grab. Everyone likes resistance and initiative-advantage. Our subclass features, especially the first, are the main thing we want to synergise with our ranged attacks.

What don't we want? Well, I guess Reckless Attack could further goad enemies into attacking us, but we're not getting advantage out of it so it's basically a debuff. That's at level 2, though, so we may as well accept it with everything else we get. We don't care about scaling Rage damage, although it scales slowly even for a STR Barb. Brutal Critical is a notable loss: levels 9, 13 and 17 are all just, essentially, not giving you a feature if you're sticking to ranged weaponry.

Would it really be worth going all the way to Barb 14 and grabbing Vengeful Ancestors and Spirit Shield improvements, if we could break off at levels 6-8 and get features more to our suiting? Relentless Rage is nice, but Consult the Spirits is situational and we can probably make do with 4 Rages. That's not to say we couldn't switch out earlier, but go further than that and I think there's a real drop-off. Put those levels in Fighter, and we can get the Archery Fighting Style, pick up a subclass, etc. Put them in Rogue and we get Sneak Attack, Cunning Action and Expertise.

Well worth the investment I think, if we can safely dump INT and CHA.

[da newt]

Thanks all.

Follow on - how would you build a ranged AG Barb for Optimization (lvl 1-20) and WHY?

Race, Stats, Feats/ASI, MC, etc



Foxy - how are you getting WIS save Proficiency? Are you playing an Elf?
Ark - you don't benefit from Rage bonus Damage, but the Ancestral Protectors give the target DISADV on all attacks except against you, and all your allies RESISTANCE to all damage from those attacks (melee, ranged, and spell).
Max - I was going for Goblin over Rogue to gain BA HIDE and not require MC, but if I was building for MC maybe Wood Elf for charm resistance, long bow, EA, and fighter dip for Archery FS, Rogue X for SA, AG Barb 5 for multi attack ...
Lav - Agreed, but what to MC and when so that the build is viable at all levels and comes on quickly? (Especially as most play is tier 2-3)

[JackalTornMoons]

Take EA and reckless attack for triple advantage.

Reckless Attack requires melee attacks with strength. Elven Accuracy doesn't affect attacks made with strength.

[MaxWilson]

Thanks all.

Follow on - how would you build a ranged AG Barb for Optimization (lvl 1-20) and WHY?

Race, Stats, Feats/ASI, MC, etc

Foxy - how are you getting WIS save Proficiency? Are you playing an Elf?
Ark - you don't benefit from Rage bonus Damage, but the Ancestral Protectors give the target DISADV on all attacks except against you, and all your allies RESISTANCE to all damage from those attacks (melee, ranged, and spell).
Max - I was going for Goblin over Rogue to gain BA HIDE and not require MC, but if I was building for MC maybe Wood Elf for charm resistance, long bow, EA, and fighter dip for Archery FS, Rogue X for SA, AG Barb 5 for multi attack ...
Lav - Agreed, but what to MC and when so that the build is viable at all levels and comes on quickly? (Especially as most play is tier 2-3)

Okay, if you're going Goblin instead of Rogue then it's simple, as long as you're willing to spend a little bit of time in melee:

Stats: Str 13, Dex highest, Wis 13
Levels 1-3: Ancestral Guardian 3 to get Rage online ASAP
Levels 4-5: Moon Druid 2 to get free HP and multiattack online by level 5, since sometimes you won't be able to kite and having hundreds of extra HP per day is nice. Also Goodberry, Faerie Fire, Longstrider access can help your party.
Levels 6-7: AG 5 for Extra Attack in goblin form, Extra Movement, and Skulker feat.

At this point you're done--viable. You basically can't go wrong after this. Personally I'd head for Moon Druid 15 because fun forms like Giant Octopus and Brontosaurus (assuming you can meet one or use Polymorph to observe one) are even more fun with extra movement, Extra Attack, and a Rage option. You've got enough spell slots to burn druid spells freely whenever you're not Raging (Spike Growth, Conjure Animals, Faerie Fire). You can also burn slots while Raging to regain HP and stay wildshaped longer. Against tough foes like legendary monsters, shoot them with your longbow (Sharpshooter optional) to give everyone else resistance against them, and either Hide in darkness or hide behind total cover or get out of range. Use longbow especially against enemies with high elemental/necrotic/force/radiant damage, which bypasses your Rage resistance. (Vs. poison you can just cast Protection From Poison, which doesn't require concentration.)

But that's just me. There are no wrong choices at this point. You could even go Battlemaster 13 at this point and it wouldn't be wrong.

[Foxydono]

Reckless Attack requires melee attacks with strength. Elven Accuracy doesn't affect attacks made with strength.

Ah, I knew the EA part, but thought reckless attack worked with all melee attacks. It was a whip build. Seems that combo doesn't work though, which is a shame. Well, just fine a mage to cast foresight and problem solved :)

[Spiritchaser]

Take three levels of echo knight.

Take sentinel

Make “melee” attacks from range

Laugh as the single big bad can’t get by your echo

Warning, this procedure may be far less effective against multiple opponents. Character design has no warranty either express or implied to function well against save based attacks. Opponents with both extreme attack bonuses and multiple attacks will be less affected. Do not use the term absquatulate in the same sentence as barbarian, as the two are mutually exclusive.

[Talionis]

How would slashing flourish interact with ancestral protector? Could you disadvantage two guys?

How that applies to Slashing Flourish is a good question though I doubt most GMs would allow it to apply to two.

I was thinking Defensive Flourish and to a lesser extent mobile flourish if it pushed them out to a range where the opponent couldn’t close distance. Being able to penAlize opponents ability to hit you when they are incentived to attack you especially at distance is nice.

[Lavaeolus]

Foxy - how are you getting WIS save Proficiency? Are you playing an Elf?

You automatically get proficiency in WIS saves at Rogue 15. Neat, although fairly late in the game.

Lav - Agreed, but what to MC and when so that the build is viable at all levels and comes on quickly? (Especially as most play is tier 2-3)

I think there are a few ways to take this, and the exact levelling progression to go for depends on two things: 1) how heavily you want to play up being a Barbarian, and 2) how core you want Ancestral Protectors to be to the build. Rogue and Fighter were my first thoughts because, unless you go for certain builds, they're largely complementary to a Barb and easily lend themselves to archery.

If we just dip Barb for three levels... My gut instinct for a Fighter multiclass tends to be to break off and start dipping at Fighter 5 (Extra Attack) or 6 (ASI: Sharpshooter). Bit slow to get our central gimmick, but not a bad approach here; I'd initially build it moreorless as a standard Ranged Battle Master, albeit with a nice juicy CON. Rogue's a bit more flexible, since Sneak Attack scales and we're mainly here for Cunning Action. I might start as a Barb, then, to get the ball rolling earlier; then we can pick up Cunning Action at level 5. Scout's not a bad choice here, feeling on-point thematically and helping us stay at range.

What if we want more Barb? It's a shame to stack Extra Attack on the Fighter, but we might get enough out of each class not to feel too bad about it. An ending breakdown of Barbarian 8 / Whatever 12 gets us a not-too-shabby 6-7 ASIs to spend, although I wouldn't be against sacrificing some Barb levels there. (The notable grab for going beyond Barb 5 is Spirit Shield at Barbarian 6, but in this case the Scout Rogue would ultimately render Barb 7's initiative advantage redundant at Scout 13.) Don't know if this is necessarily the most optimal route to take it, but it could work if I wanted to really emphasise my Barbarianiness.

You're right that Goblin is pretty nice here if you're not mixing in Rogue. Ideal stat boots, and a bonus-action Disengage/Hide as gravy. It's nifty. What other options are there? Well, VHuman and Half-Elf are versatile as ever. I think Goblin works well, but Stout Halflings, a few elf subraces, Warforged if you're in Eberron... there's a few options you could pick from. Minor adjustments if I want to pick up Resilient (Wis) aside, my Point Buy array probably looks something like: Str 13, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 10. Not exciting, but starting with two 16s gives us more chance to benefit from Unarmored Defense.

[Meichrob7]

Someone briefly mentioned it but Echo Knight and Ancestral Guardian is a very strong combo on almost every front.

Stat wise they’re very similar in that they both want strength and then con.

Thematically they mesh well as the spiritual ancestors and alternate timeline clones are similar enough that either can be reflavored to match the other.

And mechanically they fit amazingly well. The echo’s attacks will be melee meaning you can use things like reckless attack, and the echo itself isn’t you so the enemy has disadvantage to attack it.

There’s a small degree of bonus action overlap going on but it only matters on turn one.

There’s further synergy with sentinel. Since the enemy has disadvantage to attack the echo, it’s harder for them to just kill it first to avoid an opportunity attack, and sentinel makes it so that opportunity attack locks them in place next to the echo, which should be far away from where you are, meaning you got to reckless attack without giving them a chance to hit you with advantage.

The most basic level split for AG/EK is 3/17 or 17/3. This gets you the necessary features of both classes while minimizing how much you dip out of your “main” class. Out of the two, 17/3 is probably worse since barbarian late level features aren’t particularly strong.

Going 6/14 gets you 4 rages per day, and the spirit shield reaction on turns where the enemy kills your echo before it can make an opportunity attack.

8/12 makes sure you’re getting a solid amount of ability score increases, while also getting the barbarian 7th level feature which grants advantage on initiative rolls, making sure you can start locking down the enemy before they attack, and it gives you the fighter level 11 ability to make 3 attacks per round.

In terms of level order you almost always want to go 5 levels of ancestral guardian, then three levels of echo knight, which gives you access to the combo and extra attack as soon as possible. Then I’d recommend taking all the barbarian levels you plan on having, before finishing off with the fighter levels.

The only exception to this is if you’re going AG 3 and EK 17, in which case you’d flip it and take the first five levels in fighter, three in barbarian, and then the rest in fighter.

[da newt]

Yes Echo Knight and Ancestral Guardian are a fine MC (I'm playing a lvl 8 VHuman w/ PAM and Sent in one game now).


I was more curious about a true RANGED version. Maybe the added sauce I'm looking for could be just using a Goblin for race to add HIDE as a BA to the EK/AG ...