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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Problems with the word "inherent"

    So i feel the word inherent most is most commonly interpreted to mean "born with". The other day while discussing a 3rd party effect that uses the word (also important for use of the supernatural transformation feat), however, i found that some of the online definitions of the word allow a backdoor work around where things (items) closely associated with someone, such as Asmodeus' ruby rod or the Wand of Orcus, are also technically an "inherent" part of someone

    1: Is there anyone more well versed in engrish than i that can either confirm or refute this as true?

    2: where would you personally draw the line?



    edit: the specific dictionary found online to allow this was in the merrium-webster definition of inherent
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/inherent

    then following the term character
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/character

    into attribute
    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/attribute#h1

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    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Inherent bonuses are obtained on birth only for species created through epic spells.
    Yes it looks absurd but it is how it works: inherent have nothing to do with birth unless you are an epic spell created creature.
    There is no definition of inherent abilities however natural, class, extraordinary, supernatural and spell like abilities are all described.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-11-27 at 07:12 PM.

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    Troll in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    "Inherent" is one of a few words that express the close relation between or "natural" belonging of something to something else (viz. intrinsic/essential/natural/innate). The meaning of "Y is inherent to X" is something like "Y is part of X such that X [isn't really X without/doesn't make sense without/can't reasonably be considered separate from] Y".

    Edit: That means "born with" isn't part of the definition at all, and it certainly isn't what I think of when I read "inherent". Of course, depending on what you're talking about precisely, inherent and inborn qualities may overlap, but that's the only association.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2020-11-27 at 07:53 PM.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Luckily, psionics is inherently inherent innate*. It says right in the XPH.





    *Close but no synchronicity. Oops.
    Last edited by MaxiDuRaritry; 2020-11-28 at 01:21 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    "Inherent" is one of a few words that express the close relation between or "natural" belonging of something to something else (viz. intrinsic/essential/natural/innate). The meaning of "Y is inherent to X" is something like "Y is part of X such that X [isn't really X without/doesn't make sense without/can't reasonably be considered separate from] Y".

    Edit: That means "born with" isn't part of the definition at all, and it certainly isn't what I think of when I read "inherent". Of course, depending on what you're talking about precisely, inherent and inborn qualities may overlap, but that's the only association.
    Yeah, I don't think of inherent as meaning "born with" but pretty much exactly how you define it.

    @OP As far as I can see, inherent bonuses in D&D (the kind you get from Wish) are meant in the sense of "permanent, can't be removed from". Without knowing the third party source you're referring to, I'm not sure if they're using it in the same sense.

    As for what I'd allow: if an item is literally a part of someone, in the sense that the One Ring is a part of Sauron for example, I'd call that inherent. If it's just something strongly associated with them I wouldn't personally.

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    Crake's Avatar

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    With regards to supernatural transformation, I take it to mean racial SLAs, considering the context of the book being player races and exotic race options.
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    Troacctid's Avatar

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Supernatural Transformation does not, in fact, use the word "inherent."

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Supernatural Transformation does not, in fact, use the word "inherent."
    True actually, it uses innate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazyan View Post
    Playing a wizard the way GitP says wizards should be played requires the equivalent time and effort investment of a university minor. Do you really want to go down this rabbit hole, or are you comfortable with just throwing a souped-up Orb of Fire at the thing?
    Quote Originally Posted by atemu1234 View Post
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    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    As has already been said, an inherent property is something that simply IS part of that which it is a property of. There might be weird edge cases, but for most purposes, you’re not sensibly separating them.

    Water is inherently wet. Sand is inherently gritty. Fiends are inherently evil.

    To say that Asmodeus’s ruby rod is inherently his is to say that nobody else can truly own it. It’s his and will act like it’s his no matter who else holds, wields, or manipulates it.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MaxiDuRaritry's Avatar

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Would grafts be considered inherent?

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Inherent is an adjective describing a quality that exists as, quote, "an essential, permanent, or characteristic attribute" of something else. In this context a "characteristic" attribute is an adjective describing a distinguishing or noteworthy trait or property.

    A character's inherent bonuses to statistics are a permanent, inseparable part of the character.

    Things within the game are only an inherent part of something else when they are explicitly described as such within the text. Because the rules are a positive-statement, exception-based set. They are structured in such a way as to tell you what you can do, and any exceptions to what can be done are always explicitly called out as such.
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  12. - Top - End - #12
    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Would grafts be considered inherent?
    If it was left to you in the will of the donor, yes.
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    Segev's Avatar

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    Quote Originally Posted by MaxiDuRaritry View Post
    Would grafts be considered inherent?
    I'm pretty sure graft is inherent to any large organization, especially those affiliated with government powers. It's probably why there are so many evil viziers.
    Last edited by Segev; 2020-11-28 at 12:18 PM.

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    MindFlayer

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    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    then there are the stat boosting books/wishes that give you inherent.
    I would be a procrastinator, but I keep putting it off.

  15. - Top - End - #15

    Default Re: Problems with the word "inherent"

    First: the word you want is "innate", not "inherent". Inherent is a type of bonus, and is clearly defined in that there are things that grant it and limits on how big it can be.

    As far as what things count as "innate", the term is not (to my knowledge), explicitly defined. You can infer from Spell Immunity that it is probably supposed to apply to class SLAs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Spell Immunity
    Spell immunity protects against spells, spell-like effects of magic items, and innate spell-like abilities of creatures.
    So unless you want to argue that Spell Immunity would protect you from a Barbed Devil's Scorching Ray SLA, but not a Archmage's Scorching Ray SLA, class-based SLAs are "innate".

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