Telekinesis Kinda Sucks (Spheres in Review)

[SangoProduction]

I've been wanting to do this for a while. To really dig into the Telekinesis sphere. It's one of the most interesting abilities in fiction, outside of telepathy. Maybe teleportation, if you ignore the existential questions on the basis of life, identity, and the universe.
Do let me know if you prefer the quotes or the spoilers. I prefer the spoilers stylistically, but since I'm not detailing what the talent does, it might have been more convenient to do quotes. Especially as I had to divide up the talents into groups since the dev(s) didn't.

Post review analysis: I...um...hate Telekinesis sphere. Pretty much because the entire sphere revolves around the base sphere, which is just set so incredibly weak that it's actually laughable. I really wanted to reassure myself that it was good.

Ranking system:
(S) Superb: You always want this. It's awesome.
(G) Good: You would certainly not complain about having this, especially in the right builds / situations.
(B) Bad: While perhaps better than nothing, you are giving up something for it, so probably shouldn't without a good reason.
(N) No.
(C) Cheese: A talent so broken that it will be instantly banned if you use it as you could.
(I) Impossible: Can't be rated because it is just not defined enough to give a meaningful rating - it depends too much on DM ruling, or personal use. I'll just place it where I guess the average result would put it.
<Angle brackets> around a rating indicates situational usefulness, and how good it is in that favorable situation.

Telekinesis {Lift} (N): God darn. Imagine waiting until level 3 just to have the same lifting power as a level 1 cantrip.
Bludgeon (N): Hey, hey! Look here! At level 20, you might deal 3d6 damage once per round. As a normal attack. Free destruction sphere grants 10d6 all day as a touch attack. Impressive. Even using an enemy to smack an enemy is only 6d6 total. Doesn't list an action required to use this. Might simply be done as an inherent part of Lift.
-Granted, you can use weapons with Bludgeon..but you can also...simply use weapons...without Bludgeon. You may use CAM, but still use BAB. So casters aren't going to turn into Legolas over here.
Catch (N): What if Deflect Arrows were worse, and required a readied action?
Hostile Lift (B): Lifting an enemy is pretty much a situation in which martials can't do much...unless they brought ranged weapons. And it's targeting their worst saves. But they do get a free save every single round, and it cost a spell point to even attempt it. Not great. But hey. If you do manage to lift them, and take them into the sky, they may prefer not to break the lift.

Oof. That was terrible. The talents *really* have to do the heavy lifting (haha) for the sphere.

Powerful Telekinesis (S): Hey! You! Want to have a cantrip at level 1? Well, now you can! With the Amazing Powerful Telekinesis! Buy one today!
Telekinetic Tools (S): You can mimic "simple tools." You can hog tie someone with a physical rope, and unlike hostile lift, or Telekinetic Maneuver, they get no save. You can also potentially attack with the size-equivalent of the max-size weapon you could wield with telekinesis...which is only relevant at exceptionally high levels, but it's just tacked on, and that's nice.

Divided Mind (G): Frankly, half of this should be baseline. But with only half the talent it would scarcely be worth taking. Maybe rolling it into the individually mentioned talents. Regardless, as it stands, it's a pretty good talent. Not absolutely required, but pretty good.
Orbit (G): If not for the size limit effectively not allowing cool things, you could do cool things like having "all the weapons" around you that you count as wielding. But if you have a faster concentration action than normal standard action, then you could save some actions for something useful.

Idle Concentration (B-G): Has little to no combat use. Arguably allows for Flight talent, as while you might not be able to move them, you're not moving them, they are. You can get multiple Gravity Shifts and Kinetic Field going without spell points.

Increased Range (B): Take as many times as is comfortable for your table. Telekinesis Speed may be a thing, but if it wasn't, higher level casters could effectively teleport, and it only really harms Bludgeon anyway.
Greater Speed (B): The base speed may be slow, while being limited by range as normal, but it's kind of insulting just how little this increases the speed. And it does nothing else.

Spoiler: Combat Manuever Focused

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If you want to use CM talents, I'd recommend being an Infuser Sage. You get to make a busted save instead of scaling at CL, while CMB and CMD scale at 2xCR, and not getting to use feats (by developer comments).
CMs may suck, but you're picking these for the CM, so that's the point.

Gravity Ward/Well (G): If it weren't based on CMD, this would be pretty sick. If you're an Infuser, this is kinda amazing. As it stands, if you're not infuser, it's a neat little party trick that might occasionally knock people out of melee with you...the ones who are best at CMs.
Telekinetic Maneuver (G): Neat! You can hold people on the ground without a spell point. You arguably aren't size-limited, as you aren't lifting them anymore. But arguably, you are. DM's call. Dirty trick is also a pretty fun one to use

Forceful Telekinesis (B): Well, here's that feat you weren't allowed to take, but now it affects every CM you can do with the sphere...which is an upgrade to what martials get (without Elephant in the Room)...hardly a ringing endorsement

Steal (N-B): As a caster, you get to pretend you're a martial character using a CM no one else ever uses (and Disarm...again, rarely used, but it has its uses). But you don't get to take feats to improve it. Also penalized Sleight of Hand. But...meh.

Spoiler: Bludgeon Focused Talents

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Mobile Bludgeon (G): It's not just "Fly-by attack" for your weapons (kinda pointless). It's also just straight up "Here's your iterative attacks back, you peasant."
Sweeping Bludgeons (G): Legitimately cool. Rather than hitting Full AC, you just force a reflex save instead. It's probably more likely to hit...But again...destruction sphere kinda makes this obsolete.

Dancing Weapon (<B-G>): If Bludgeon wasn't absolute garbage, this would be kinda cool, and a neat expansion on the field of what a Bludgeon can do.
Excessive Force (<B-G>): Destruction sphere, basically. But only adds 1/2 CL d6 to lifted target (which meant it was likely a hostile lift, which cost a spell point), and all you get compensated for is a knock prone effect. If you spend a talent on Acceleration as well, you can also deal damage to another enemy, making it less bad, by dealing full CL d6 to 2 creatures for a spell point. At least its damage isn't worse than destruction sphere...except it only needs to be saved against for full rather than half. And you still need to make an attack roll at normal AC.

Dampening Field (B): Of all the talents that grant 1/2 CL as DR, this is the only one that doesn't have a limited pool of DR hit points. But also the only one that is beaten by a basic damage type rather than adamantine. But it's also not costing a spell point. Still not as good as Undead Body.

Floating Shield (N-B): Even ignoring the nonsensical size limit... This is equivalent to the Shield spell only if you use it on a tower shield. The Armored Magic protection talent is probably closer to what you'd actually get, bonus wise, while lasting 60x as long, and having flexibility of also being armor.
Acceleration (N-B): Bludgeon is so absolutely useless that the charging bonus isn't what you're here for. If you need to increase the speed (and the speed is rather garbage) then this is pretty cool.

Homing (N-): Oh boy. Spend yet another spell point, simply to guarantee a hit. Just one. Maybe several turns later...after he already died. And this is with a bludgeon's damage. That's sad. Even a straight up "guarantee hit next turn" might not actually be good, simply because Bludgeon is Bludgeon.

Pantomime Cage (B-G): It's a cool "sanctuary" effect. Sure, they can try and break it, but unlike hostile lift, it has to invest actions into breaking it. And it's actually useful against casters. Unlike Protection's Barrier, it must be saved against, not destroyed.
Return (B-G): You know? When you're a feat-equivalent (aka talent), and get to compare to an Epic level feat, and not be thrashed, you're possibly pretty neat. Too bad you are tied to the worse Deflect Arrows. But Telekinetic Field (if not wound around yourself, because that was *such* an over powered ability) can basically reflect arrows if your TK range is sufficient.

Quick Reactions (N-B): Oh hey, now you can even more explicitly be a worse Deflect Arrows! But silly thing being that someone could simply choose to not attack you with arrows for those short rounds that you have it up for, and still have spent the spell points.

Tether (N): I'm sorry, I just see absolutely no good use for this. Especially in a world where Gravity Ward/Well exists. Sure, this uses a save, and that a CM check, but man I really don't think it's good.
Parry (N): Hey! I spent my held action or spell point on parrying you, please be very kind and not ram your...oh. Stupid will saves.
Telekinetic Crush(N-): Wow, and you thought bludgeon was low damage. This only nets you 5d6 damage by level 20. A full 1d6 lower than bludgeon. And only while concentrating.

Kinetic Field (<G-S>): If you're high enough level, this can be pretty funny, what with kicking away the gnome at a speed far greater than their move speed. The field of Catch is...neat, although Protection sphere would be better for that. In fact, protection sphere is better for all of this... but hey. It's funny at high levels. Also has synergies with other talents in the sphere.

Whirlwind Assembly (<G>): If your DM is a stickler for "realism" and has you doff your armor regularly, getting to put it back on as a swift action is cool...as soon as you have the size limit for it. Oh, and you can pretend you're a Jedi and grab your conveniently placed lightsaber from just out of arm's reach.
Kinetic Sense (G): Blindsense is not blind sight, but 30ft is like a 10th level oracle curse, without the negatives. Not needing line of sight is rarely, if ever, going to be an issue.

Flight (G): The earliest you can use this to lift a medium sized creature is level 5. And I really hope that's not the reason the telekinesis size is so scuff. You can give 100 speed perfect flight for the same duration with Alteration sphere at level 1, with no size limits (or talents increasing said limits) or needing Divided Mind.
Finesse (<G>): If you've got Casting Ability of 22, and Dex of 10, you're coming out ahead by swapping the ability used, but most of the time, you're paying a hefty penalty for the privilege of doing "fine manipulation" checks at a distance.
Telekinetic Push (<G>): Slow Fall. Basically. Never useful most of the time. Neat in that one moment where you do actually fall of a cliff.

Gravity Shift (B-G): It's pretty funny that two instances of Light Gravity to deal 2d4 damage per 10 feet fallen. So I'll give it points for that. But...man is this really limited. Best case scenario is actually for charging people for getting to do "moon walks." Actually, you could probably reason yourself into doubling some Creation caster's damage. But that's not Destruction sphere. And it is using both of your actions.

Spoiler: Telekinesis Feats

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Event Horizon (S): Give Gravity Well an actual AoE? Damn. That's cool. I didn't know about the buff to Gravity Well when I reviewed it in my Dark sphere review.
Skillful Force (S): No penalties to ranged skill checks, and get to imitate masterwork tools. Man.

Piecemeal Animation (<G-S>): Expands and consolidates the resources you can work with. Sounds like a good deal if it's ever relevant in your campaign.

Mind Against Body (G): Legitimately cool and effective, and very thematic, in that you puppet your body. This still only scales at 1x CL, while CMB scales at 2x CR, but hey, it's a reduction in chance of being grappled.

Extradimensional Assembly (<G>): Again, if your DM is has a hard on for doffing armor, and you don't want to carry it around, this is cool. Also if you have a lot of consumables, this could be cool.
Forceful Creation (<G>): That's cool. It's efficient. I don't see a good use for it, but I imagine there is one.

Kinetic Creation (<G>): Again, I don't see a particularly great use with that low HP, even with the regeneration. But I'm sure there is one. Maybe for bridging just over a lava pit?
Tactile Illusion (G): Literally enables a very neat use of Illusions. But man look at those prerequisites.

Poltergeist’s Malice (B-G): Arguably doesn't consume the penalty, even without a spell point. But it's barely better than a feat, and contingent on you personally setting it up first. I don't like it.
Push/Pull Mastery (B-G): Meh. Getting to push the planet at level 1 at double your telekinesis speed is pretty fun, considering how limited your telekinesis normally is.

Beam Propulsion (I): I see no case where this would be particularly useful. Even ignoring the weight limit. But... If you want to combine Light and Telekinesis, go ahead?
Enhancing Telekinesis (B): Using it for weapons? Terrible. Bludgeon sucks. Using it to apply one of the few debuffs to a lifted enemy, which the target even cares about? Congrats? I guess?
Forceful Hand (B): Exchange an Aegis for either a push or a catch against a foe. Meh.

Floating Panoply(N): Hey, you know that situation where I said Enhancing Telekinesis is terrible? Yeah, that's the only situation this applies in.
Alloy Telekinesis (N): Nature (metal) sucks. Bludgeon sucks. Combine them? (Insert joke here)

Spoiler: Protokinesis feats

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These are fun, and neat, with no pretensions of being particularly good.
Kinetic Juggler is particularly neat because of the free action pick up and drop function, which basically means you can two-hand weapons, and still use a shield. Or really... a lot of other different actions, like Dual-wielding pistols or crossbows, tossing them up and reloading like some fantasy western.

Poltergeist's Fingers grants a penalty to perception checks to notice you taking items equal to your character level. That's basically doubling your effective ranks in Sleight of Hand, for the purposes of getting away with the crime.

Touchsense grants temorsense of up to 30 ft. That's not nothing. I don't see a bunch of other feats granting special senses.

[Mehangel]

Its a little thing, but might I suggest renaming the thread title? I opened this thread thinking it was going to be a review of the Barroom sphere.

[SangoProduction]

Its a little thing, but might I suggest renaming the thread title? I opened this thread thinking it was going to be a review of the Barroom sphere.

Very Fair. I was going with "This is about as much as I can lift with telekinesis." But I'll keep the title in mind for Barroom.

[Lirya]

I have actually gmed for a telekinesis specialized incanter, and the sphere is plenty powerful. In practice many monsters don't have ranged attacks and martials with a ranged backup weapon tend to be much worse with it compared to their melee ability. And you can drop them for 20d6 damage and have them land prone. Flying enemies or enemies with a ranged primary weapon can be brought down to the party so your own melee specialists can engage them. Parry/Quick Reactions aren't Emergency Force Sphere, but they are effective at blocking attacks targeting your squishy wizard in the back row.

This perception might be colored by the game going from 1st-16th level or so, and incanter specialization + powerful telekinesis + small enemies at early levels meant they got hit by hostile lift from 2nd level onwards.

[Mehangel]

I have actually gmed for a telekinesis specialized incanter, and the sphere is plenty powerful. In practice many monsters don't have ranged attacks and martials with a ranged backup weapon tend to be much worse with it compared to their melee ability. And you can drop them for 20d6 damage and have them land prone. Flying enemies or enemies with a ranged primary weapon can be brought down to the party so your own melee specialists can engage them. Parry/Quick Reactions aren't Emergency Force Sphere, but they are effective at blocking attacks targeting your squishy wizard in the back row.

This perception might be colored by the game going from 1st-16th level or so, and incanter specialization + powerful telekinesis + small enemies at early levels meant they got hit by hostile lift from 2nd level onwards.

I think SangoProduction's review is viewing the sphere through a vacuum. I also have seen the Telekinesis sphere deal ridiculous amounts of damage at low levels. A particularly potent build involved being a Soaring Blade (armorist). The build involves binding weapons that are sized larger than the armorist (usually a greatsword, but it could also work with the butchering axe) and applying damage increases to the weapons at every opportunity. Every time that the maximum size category of the bludgeon increases, she would bind a larger version of the weapon.

Spoiler: Build until 11th level

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It should be noted that the only talent spent on this build is Powerful Telekinesis at 1st level; Dancing Weapon is a free talent at 3rd level.

1st level: Powerful Telekinesis talent (Tiny-sized +1 greatsword, 1d8+1)
2nd level: Flying Daggers arsenal trick (Small-sized +1 greatsword, 1d10+1)
3rd level: Dancing Weapon (Medium-sized +1 flaming greatsword, 2d6+1d6+1+CAM)
5th level: (Medium-sized +1 corrosive flaming greatsword (lead), 2d8+1d6+1d6+1+CAM)
6th level: 2 attacks with Dancing Weapon (Medium-sized +1 corrosive flaming frost greatsword (lead), 2d8+1d6+1d6+1d6+1+CAM)
8th level: (Large-sized +2 corrosive flaming frost shocking greatsword (lead), 3d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+2+CAM)
11th level: 3 attacks with Dancing Weapon (Huge-sized +3 corrosive flaming frost shocking greatsword (lead), 3d8+1d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+3+CAM)

[SangoProduction]

I have actually gmed for a telekinesis specialized incanter, and the sphere is plenty powerful. In practice many monsters don't have ranged attacks and martials with a ranged backup weapon tend to be much worse with it compared to their melee ability. And you can drop them for 20d6 damage and have them land prone. Flying enemies or enemies with a ranged primary weapon can be brought down to the party so your own melee specialists can engage them. Parry/Quick Reactions aren't Emergency Force Sphere, but they are effective at blocking attacks targeting your squishy wizard in the back row.

This perception might be colored by the game going from 1st-16th level or so, and incanter specialization + powerful telekinesis + small enemies at early levels meant they got hit by hostile lift from 2nd level onwards.

Yeah, I did say Hostile Lift is rated B, as it does have its uses. I just don't think you're spending your resources well by using your resources here. It's relatively expensive (at 2 spell points each, unless you're spending your whole combat trying to negate one person's action), requires fairly large amount of support, and even if you do get it to stick, they can freely end it with a save, next round. And that's all assuming you can even target said creature, because of the size constraints.

I think SangoProduction's review is viewing the sphere through a vacuum. I also have seen the Telekinesis sphere deal ridiculous amounts of damage at low levels. A particularly potent build involved being a Soaring Blade (armorist). The build involves binding weapons that are sized larger than the armorist (usually a greatsword, but it could also work with the butchering axe) and applying damage increases to the weapons at every opportunity. Every time that the maximum size category of the bludgeon increases, she would bind a larger version of the weapon.

Spoiler: Build until 11th level

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It should be noted that the only talent spent on this build is Powerful Telekinesis at 1st level; Dancing Weapon is a free talent at 3rd level.

1st level: Powerful Telekinesis talent (Tiny-sized +1 greatsword, 1d8+1)
2nd level: Flying Daggers arsenal trick (Small-sized +1 greatsword, 1d10+1)
3rd level: Dancing Weapon (Medium-sized +1 flaming greatsword, 2d6+1d6+1+CAM)
5th level: (Medium-sized +1 corrosive flaming greatsword (lead), 2d8+1d6+1d6+1+CAM)
6th level: 2 attacks with Dancing Weapon (Medium-sized +1 corrosive flaming frost greatsword (lead), 2d8+1d6+1d6+1d6+1+CAM)
8th level: (Large-sized +2 corrosive flaming frost shocking greatsword (lead), 3d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+2+CAM)
11th level: 3 attacks with Dancing Weapon (Huge-sized +3 corrosive flaming frost shocking greatsword (lead), 3d8+1d6+1d6+1d6+1d6+3+CAM)

For the most part I am, yes. Although I did make special mention that weapons can be admittedly used by bludgeon, which is extremely superior to base bludgeon.

But you can also take 1 talent in Alteration sphere, 1 in Light sphere, taking the drawbacks to only affect yourself. And then the size improvements from said spheres.
And at level 1 you're wielding the same huge-sized greatsword that Telekinesis is wielding at level 11, if you were a human to start. From there, the enhancements are gained at the same, expected rate, and you can increase in size at a faster rate than Telekinesis.