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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    Do we know if they only visited each rift once as a party (to seal each rift)? Or would they visit some of them several times, to research them so they could come up with the sealing spell(s) - and then, after they disbanded, each headed for the rift they were assigned to build its defences.
    In 276 panel 7, it says they traveled to each rift to keep them from being used for evil. Then in panel 9, they 'seal' the rift, killing Kraagor. Panel 11, Lirun and Dorukan research the gates. And then in 277, they split up to defend the gates.

    I'm not sure if sealing the rifts is part of keeping them from evil, but it looks like they traveled to each one at least twice.

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    You can see a mass of blue buildings in the crayon panel with the Azure City rift:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html
    Ah, thank you. So the city was there (not just quite reaching the rift with the palace yet).

    Quote Originally Posted by mormon_soldier View Post
    In 276 panel 7, it says they traveled to each rift to keep them from being used for evil. Then in panel 9, they 'seal' the rift, killing Kraagor. Panel 11, Lirun and Dorukan research the gates. And then in 277, they split up to defend the gates.

    I'm not sure if sealing the rifts is part of keeping them from evil, but it looks like they traveled to each one at least twice.
    Ah, I need to reread everything, I should have known this. So Serini knew the locations and that some nutcases wanted to keep the rifts unsealed before the defenses of each rift were made. She could have noted each location in her diary when they found the rift, but decided not to record the exact mechanics of the defences of Kraagor's Tomb one.

    Or she ran out of space / lost the diary before finishing it, so that secret is encoded in the next volume.
    Last edited by Hekko; 2020-12-06 at 02:21 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Metastachydium View Post
    I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.
    Belkar has acted many times in this strip as the teller of inconvenient truths. Chains being yanked by (a) the gods and (b) the author are both rational interpretations of Belkar's observation.
    Avatar by linklele. How Teleport Works
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Hekko View Post
    The Dark One? Perhaps he put in some research of his own? He's a god and we know nearly nothing about what he's doing around nowish.
    Unlikely. The Dark One was never there when the Snarl was loose and he was never there when it was locked away. I can't quite see how could he know more about it than the rest of the gods.

    Quote Originally Posted by KorvinStarmast View Post
    Belkar has acted many times in this strip as the teller of inconvenient truths. Chains being yanked by (a) the gods and (b) the author are both rational interpretations of Belkar's observation.
    I don't think that was supposed to be a meta reference. As for the gods, you might be right, mostly because there's no such thing as the gods. That Thor does not know something means nothing. Some rival divine faction may very well know better (I'm looking at you, Tiamat).
    (Also, Thor could be a lying, double-crossing Evil fellow.)

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    You can see a mass of blue buildings in the crayon panel with the Azure City rift:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


    And Soon talks about them being on a trip away from Azure City, in the previous strip:

    https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html
    Though interestingly enough, that means Soon came back to discover the rift in his hometown.
    And quite how, Girard gave him false co-ordinates.

    Personally I think the Azure City account is true and accurate, but 'from a certain point of view'.
    "We retire and build a stronghold as we see fit. [No interference] As far as we know no 2 have seen each other..."
    "Serini wasn't the type for retiring, she decided she would build a tomb for Kraagor and fill it with the nastiest monsters in the world, to reflect his belief in the power of physical might"

    It doesn't say Serini only defended the gate with the nastiest monsters (it doesn't even say she defended the gate with them, but we've had a decoy gate before)

    And it doesn't say they didn't all covertly see/deal with Serini. It's interesting to see retiring from the party, being the previous context for retiring. On the other hand here no-interference seems pretty decisive, granted setting up the monitor requires at least one more round of communication.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    I'm thinking that Thor and Odins exchange might have been to answer the question raised by Odins esoteric statement at the Godsmoot, specifically 'Do the Gods know about the Rift Planet?'. Odins 'yarn winding yarn' could be read as 'maybe Odin does', but later on we find the answer is 'Odin and Thor don't'. It adds to my reading of Oots as a story about acting on incomplete information; no one has God's-Eye view of the story, not even the Gods.

    Belkars statement is more about him than the story; he expects someone is to blame for misleading them, rather than people saying what they thought was true but was incomplete (bear in mind the origin story in the Scribbles wasn't entirely debunked, it just missed out a large chunk of the story).

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Riftwolf View Post
    It adds to my reading of Oots as a story about acting on incomplete information; no one has God's-Eye view of the story, not even the Gods.
    I have that take on the deities of OoTS as well.

    If I go back to my old reading of Bullfinch's Mythology, I think that the Moirae weaving (or the Norns if you go further North) together the future of the world's people would fit reasonably well with how OoTS pantheons work. Not sure if that's what is alluded to in Odin's 'yarn spinning yarn' and I am even more unsure now that Book 7 begins with that "snarl/ball of yarn" illustration with Mr Scruffy.
    Last edited by KorvinStarmast; 2020-12-14 at 09:03 AM.
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  8. - Top - End - #38
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    Though interestingly enough, that means Soon came back to discover the rift in his hometown.
    And quite how, Girard gave him false co-ordinates.
    The coordinates for the rifts with distinct locations probably just weren't faked. Red Mountain and Azure City probably wouldn't be possible since they're major landmarks. Lirian's gate was probably also known to him since he was in the area of his own accord. Girard's gate was easy to fake because it was in a desert, where you'd need an exact location to find anything, due to the lack of landmarks.

    In fact we know the correct coordinates were in Serini's diary since Xykon arrived at the gate without any issue. We can infer that Girard only wanted to keep Soon away from his gate, not all of the gates or every member of the team.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    In fact we know the correct coordinates were in Serini's diary since Xykon arrived at the gate without any issue. We can infer that Girard only wanted to keep Soon away from his gate, not all of the gates or every member of the team.
    No need to infer anything. We know for certain that Girard gave Serini the true coordinates.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    Though interestingly enough, that means Soon came back to discover the rift in his hometown.
    Yes, quite a contrived coincidence.

    In a narrative sense, it probably can be interpreted with Soon being the protagonist/hero of his own story (like Roy is of this one).
    It's typical that, after defeating all the the dangers but the last one, the hero discovers that the last one threats his own home (or family).

    In a meta-sense, maybe Rich at that point was still adjusting the complete plot (specially the need for one of the gates to be in Azure City to justify Xykon need to conquer it) on the fly.
    Last edited by Dr.Zero; 2020-12-17 at 05:58 AM.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Maybe the Snarl is also subject to Belief, and the Dark One's belief that the Snarl will user a goblin utopia is molding the Snarl into an utopia.
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  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Goblin_Priest View Post
    Maybe the Snarl is also subject to Belief, and the Dark One's belief that the Snarl will us{h}er a goblin utopia is molding the Snarl into a utopia.
    The world inside the snarl being this nascent utopia - is that your direction of thought?
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    Gosh, 2D8HP, you are so very correct!
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  13. - Top - End - #43
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    On the topic of Serini writing down the coordinates: keep in mind we don't know how she encrypted them. She may very well have hidden the information in a way that isn't immediately apparent, but which Xykon figured out.

    What I'm saying, it's one thing to write down the info using Caesar cipher, which would immediately catch the eye as it produces a jumble of nonsense, and it's another to hide the information within the text using more subtle methods.
    After all, as a Rogue, Serini would know Thieves' Cant, which is a secret "language" based on slang and innuendos.

    The page we saw imples pretty heavily that Serini wrote the diary during the adventures, so originally her keeping a note of the coordinates may have simply been a failsafe if they ever needed to return to those places - before they split up and decided to try to keep the Gates a secret.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    originally her keeping a note of the coordinates may have simply been a failsafe if they ever needed to return to those places - before they split up and decided to try to keep the Gates a secret.
    I am skeptical about that. All mapmaking duties were delegated to the guy with two ranger levels rather than Serini. It would appear that she just jotted down the locations for her own amusement (unless of course Serini is Evil).

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by NerdyKris View Post
    The coordinates for the rifts with distinct locations probably just weren't faked. Red Mountain and Azure City probably wouldn't be possible since they're major landmarks. Lirian's gate was probably also known to him since he was in the area of his own accord. Girard's gate was easy to fake because it was in a desert, where you'd need an exact location to find anything, due to the lack of landmarks.

    In fact we know the correct coordinates were in Serini's diary since Xykon arrived at the gate without any issue. We can infer that Girard only wanted to keep Soon away from his gate, not all of the gates or every member of the team.
    That makes some sense. Girard would be motivated to pick the gate he had the advantage over Soon on. And it does make sense for the arrogant Paladin to delegate 'mapmaking' until relationships break down (at which point Girard is motivated to fake the data, and doesn't have to replace original data).

    It does show that Girard was clearly chummy with Serini.
    I wonder whether Serini's relationship with Soon was the same as Soon's with Girard or Serini's with Girard.

    Further observation, Girard rants "It should have been you ... coward", but Soon has already lost a loved one to the rifts (this is used against Soon by Dorugan in #277, but what they feel now he was already feeling), also where is Lilian?
    Last edited by jayem; 2020-12-19 at 04:52 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Girard, at least, seems to have at best been operating on some incredibly wrong assumptions about paladins, and at worst was completely delusional by the time the schism happened. Looking for solid logic in his actions seems misguided.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Girard, at least, seems to have at best been operating on some incredibly wrong assumptions about paladins, and at worst was completely delusional by the time the schism happened. Looking for solid logic in his actions seems misguided.
    Agreed: Girard was dumb enough to think, after years of adventuring with Soon, that him and/or his paladins would break their vows intentionally. He was blinded by his dislike of Soon, and acted irrationally.

    The reason Girard picked his Gate, though, was that Serini suggested everyone would watch over the gate closest to their homelands - which of course must have been "good" for Girard, since, in his mind, it allowed him an easy way to misdirect Soon, as well as a way to rely on his family.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by jayem View Post
    That makes some sense. Girard would be motivated to pick the gate he had the advantage over Soon on. And it does make sense for the arrogant Paladin to delegate 'mapmaking' until relationships break down (at which point Girard is motivated to fake the data, and doesn't have to replace original data).
    (How exactly is delegating mapmaking duties to the party ranger a sign of arrogance?)

  19. - Top - End - #49
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    To be fair, paladins can take really liberal interpretations of their oaths. And not looking into other gates as long as they're not being threatened does offer a lot of wiggle room.

    Girard's defenses were still for sure the worst out of all the ones we've seen so far, and I can definetly see his weird family cult becoming the antagonists of some adventuring party.

    I mean, investigating mysterious vanishings relating to wandering sorcerers sound like a plot hook if I've ever saw one.

  20. - Top - End - #50
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by ebarde View Post
    To be fair, paladins can take really liberal interpretations of their oaths. And not looking into other gates as long as they're not being threatened does offer a lot of wiggle room.

    Girard's defenses were still for sure the worst out of all the ones we've seen so far, and I can definetly see his weird family cult becoming the antagonists of some adventuring party.

    I mean, investigating mysterious vanishings relating to wandering sorcerers sound like a plot hook if I've ever saw one.
    Which makes one wonder why they didn't send in "mission" only women. Who could get easily pregnant and take with them the (to be born) baby without the male "random encounter" even knowing.

  21. - Top - End - #51
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by ebarde View Post
    To be fair, paladins can take really liberal interpretations of their oaths. And not looking into other gates as long as they're not being threatened does offer a lot of wiggle room.

    Girard's defenses were still for sure the worst out of all the ones we've seen so far, and I can definetly see his weird family cult becoming the antagonists of some adventuring party.

    I mean, investigating mysterious vanishings relating to wandering sorcerers sound like a plot hook if I've ever saw one.
    I don't think their defences were the worst. It took a combination of an epic level spell only known to a long-dead soul-spliced wizard and then a very thorough investigation by the order with some lucky coincidences to get to the gate. It took Nale months of casting to just narrow down the location. Xykon was only able to get directly to the gate because of the diary. And even with all defenders wiped out, it still took considerable effort for the teams to reach the gate, and then linear guild got tricked and almost gave up looking for it in the pyramid. The defences weren't bad, they just got really unlucky.

  22. - Top - End - #52
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelenius View Post
    I don't think their defences were the worst. It took a combination of an epic level spell only known to a long-dead soul-spliced wizard and then a very thorough investigation by the order with some lucky coincidences to get to the gate. It took Nale months of casting to just narrow down the location. Xykon was only able to get directly to the gate because of the diary. And even with all defenders wiped out, it still took considerable effort for the teams to reach the gate, and then linear guild got tricked and almost gave up looking for it in the pyramid. The defences weren't bad, they just got really unlucky.
    Xykon probably would have steamrolled the defenses even if Girard's family were still alive. It sounds like the main weakness of all the gates was actually Serini writing their locations down though.

  23. - Top - End - #53
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Xykon probably would have steamrolled the defenses even if Girard's family were still alive. It sounds like the main weakness of all the gates was actually Serini writing their locations down though.
    Xykon hasn't been able to steamroll the defenses of any Gate so far. I don't see why Girard's Gate should have been different.
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    I suppose even Tarquin would be able to steamroll most of the Pyramid, with his ring of True Seeing.
    I expect nothing less from Xykon and Redcloak (even because RC, as a cleric, has Truee Seeing.

  25. - Top - End - #55
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by hroşila View Post
    Xykon hasn't been able to steamroll the defenses of any Gate so far. I don't see why Girard's Gate should have been different.
    Xykon is immune to mind-affecting, and Redcloak has true-seeing. Both have fairly high will saves. That neuters the main gimmick of the pyramid. All that would be left would be some weak traps and a bunch of mid-level sorcerers relying on their back-up spells. And the last double bluff probably wouldn't fool Redcloak.

  26. - Top - End - #56
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    I keep coming back to that issue -- True Sight would negate basically all the powerful stuff in the dungeon -- and my conclusion is that there has to be something more going on. Some spell that could've beaten/subverted True Sight, or a backup plan for creatures unaffected by illusions. Girard was a paranoid old jerk, but I can't see him being so deluded that he'd leave the biggest gap in any gate's defenses.

    Had the Draketooths been alive, I suspect we might've seen more non-illusion tricks.

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by hungrycrow View Post
    Xykon is immune to mind-affecting, and Redcloak has true-seeing. Both have fairly high will saves. That neuters the main gimmick of the pyramid. All that would be left would be some weak traps and a bunch of mid-level sorcerers relying on their back-up spells. And the last double bluff probably wouldn't fool Redcloak.
    They also have no rogue, and the lair is full of traps. Plus, we don't know what those sorcerers are capable of besides illusions and mind-affecting. It's their main schtick, but probably not the only one.

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Zero View Post
    Which makes one wonder why they didn't send in "mission" only women. Who could get easily pregnant and take with them the (to be born) baby without the male "random encounter" even knowing.
    That halves your breeding population, though.

    Furthermore, males can conceive concomitant offspring.

    So I guess that depended on what their goals were. Female genitors can do the whole thing more easily and discreetly, as you say so. Male genitors can conceive a lot more, though.

    Additional considerations: Not sending the males on such missions means that they either have to live in abstinence, or conceive incestuously. Not taking in any offspring they generate also doesn't mean that the mothers won't be looking for them. Unequal responsibilities could also weaken intra-familial solidarity, making the females feel an additional burden not requested of their male counterparts.

    And there's probably a ton of other reasons that could explain it.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    Quote Originally Posted by Ionathus View Post
    I keep coming back to that issue -- True Sight would negate basically all the powerful stuff in the dungeon -- and my conclusion is that there has to be something more going on. Some spell that could've beaten/subverted True Sight, or a backup plan for creatures unaffected by illusions. Girard was a paranoid old jerk, but I can't see him being so deluded that he'd leave the biggest gap in any gate's defenses.

    Had the Draketooths been alive, I suspect we might've seen more non-illusion tricks.
    On the one hand I think everyone is forgetting the heavily trapped door. All of the other routes in the maze may have been to similar ones before the different illusion trapped passages. On the other hand, I'm not sure how the linear guild got past one. Either there was only the one door now disarmed and more mazework afterwards such that they still entered the main chamber through separate passages. Or succubi are high-level rogues as well; I don't know that in either direction.

    While true-sight would have allowed Redcloak to see the door for what it was it wouldn't have helped him disarm it. He and Xykon would have had to deal with everything it spit out.

    Also, there were the observation passages. While more illusions wouldn't have helped any sorcerers watching might have other tricks up their sleeves. If nothing else there are probably spells that would let them re-route passages or otherwise divert from the main chamber. They may even have had a fail-safe that collapsed the entire chamber with stone. All we see are what are left as un-manned obstacles; even Rich has pointed out the defenses were not designed to operate without the Draketooths being alive.
    Last edited by Throknor; 2021-02-05 at 12:33 PM.

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    SwashbucklerGuy

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    Default Re: Serini's diary, some fridge logic

    The original plan for the defenses as I see it, is that the Draketooths would support the main trapped corridors from the observation tunnels, using illusions to make the traps actually effective. If someone could see through illusions, they could use dispel magic or switch to other spells. Unfortunately Xykon and Redcloak are probably too high level for them to dispel easily, and Xykon can phase through walls. Without help from someone around Xykon's level, they'd just get slaughtered.

    The last resort against bad guys with true sight was the phantasm, which wouldn't effect Xykon and which Redcloak would resist pretty easily.

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