Serini's diary, some fridge logic

[Dr.Zero]

Follow me, here.

Serini trusted enough that no one could have access to her diary and decrypt it, so much that she put the locations of all the gates on it[1].

But, even trusting her diary so much to put the whole multiverse in danger by simply stating the location of the gates[2], in her own diary she didn't explain her inner thoughts which brought her to build the tomb the way it is (which would practically explain its defenses), which (your inner thoughts) is what is the main thing you'll put in a diary.
Sounds quite contradictory.

[1] Either that or she thought: "well, who cares about if someone else finds the other gates?"
[2] If team Evil didn't spectacularly fail every single time before, the Plan would be completed already. And the DO actually doesn't wants to end the multiverse, true. But another creature -a woobie destroyer of worlds- could wish to do so.

[Fyraltari]

The most likely explanation is that she dtopped writing her diary some time after Kraagor died and before she really got to nuilding her defenses.

[Lex]

She did put her inner thoughts in the diary. In the page we saw, she commented on Dorukan ejng in love with Lirian and drew hearts next to Girard's picture. For Kragoor's Tomb, she could have written that she decided to honor her friend, whose sacrifice was going to be erased from history, by making a dungeon filled with strong monsters since he valued strength over everything and that would have expressed her feelings perfectly, without the need to give a detailed description of how the dungeon works.

[Synesthesy]

However, being Serini a chaotic rogue, she could also have written some lies in her own diary, if she wanted to or if she expected it to be found by evil guys. Maybe reading it you think that you should act in some way to unlock the gate, but there is something hidden that will defend it.

[Metastachydium]

However, being Serini a chaotic rogue, she could also have written some lies in her own diary, if she wanted to or if she expected it to be found by evil guys. Maybe reading it you think that you should act in some way to unlock the gate, but there is something hidden that will defend it.

Since the most crucial details (i.e. the exact coordinates of each Gate) were included (no lies, no misleading red herrings, no trickery), I am somewhat skeptical about that.

[NerdyKris]

The only page of the diary we've seen, if I'm not mistaken, was written during the adventure, while they were just sealing the gates. It might not include the details of how they built the fortresses, Xykon might have simply deduced that from the fact that they'd already seen two such fortresses when he said that. There might very well be a diary that includes the details of Kraagor's gate (especially if she needed to entrust it's care to someone after her death), but it's separate from the book Xykon found.

Xykon was also only able to find the location of one gate when decrypting it the first time. They had to go back and decrypt the other three after failing at Dorukon's gate. Which means it might also just be a matter of Xykon and Redcloak not having bothered to decrpyt that passage once they had the remaining gate locations, especially since the first two gates they arrived at were fairly simple in their defense. They might not have realized there's a twist to Serini's plan, since they haven't run into any before.

[AceOfFools]

Serini probably wanted there to be a way for someone to find the gates, in the incredibly likely event there needed to be some adventures to save the world centered on the gates. The unlikely heroes would need some way to find them.

She encrypted them as a security measure to prevent a casual perusal by someone evil from recovering the coordinates, but ultimately that’s a risk you have to take when dealing with this sort of the end of the world stuff.

It’s not like there was an organization she trusted to carry the secret in perpetuity without becoming corrupt.

[Metastachydium]

The only page of the diary we've seen, if I'm not mistaken, was written during the adventure, while they were just sealing the gates. It might not include the details of how they built the fortresses, Xykon might have simply deduced that from the fact that they'd already seen two such fortresses when he said that. There might very well be a diary that includes the details of Kraagor's gate (especially if she needed to entrust it's care to someone after her death), but it's separate from the book Xykon found.

Xykon was also only able to find the location of one gate when decrypting it the first time. They had to go back and decrypt the other three after failing at Dorukon's gate. Which means it might also just be a matter of Xykon and Redcloak not having bothered to decrpyt that passage once they had the remaining gate locations, especially since the first two gates they arrived at were fairly simple in their defense. They might not have realized there's a twist to Serini's plan, since they haven't run into any before.

The thing is, we know much of the diary is probably not encrypted, so Team Evil had reason to believe that whatever that is should be important, so I would not assume any information of that sort was left alone and unnoticed.

[mormon_soldier]

Do we know where Xykon found the diary?

[Fyraltari]

No, we do not. This has led to some speculation regarding wether Xykon killed her or not.

[Riftwolf]

Do we know the diary is encrypted in the cipher sense? My Headcanon was that Serini's diary documented her journey, and if you knew certain landmarks or starting points, you could discern the end locations (which Xykon did because he knew where Lirians gate was). I can't remember if there's a strip/print page where the code is discussed in detail, so I don't know if there's anything to refute this.

[Fyraltari]

You can't work coordinates out of descriptions.

[ijuinkun]

You can't work coordinates out of descriptions.

There's also the matter that the general location of Soon's Gate would be obvious from the briefest of descriptions rather than coordinates--"It's in Azure City".

[Grey_Wolf_c]

The most likely explanation is that she dtopped writing her diary some time after Kraagor died and before she really got to nuilding her defenses.

Or she continued, but she run out of pages somewhere between Kraagor's death and the arrival of the contruction crew, started a new diary book, and Xykon only has the first of the two.

GW

[Dr.Zero]

The most likely explanation is that she dtopped writing her diary some time after Kraagor died and before she really got to nuilding her defenses.

At this point this is the most working explanation, I think.

Even if now I don't remember if the "the dungeon will have strong monsters" is from her diary, but, if it is, the whole thing sounds quite a lucky coincidence (it means that she had a second thought about the defenses exactly after she stopped to write her diary).

She did put her inner thoughts in the diary. In the page we saw, she commented on Dorukan ejng in love with Lirian and drew hearts next to Girard's picture. For Kragoor's Tomb, she could have written that she decided to honor her friend, whose sacrifice was going to be erased from history, by making a dungeon filled with strong monsters since he valued strength over everything and that would have expressed her feelings perfectly, without the need to give a detailed description of how the dungeon works.

Granted, you don't put a blueprint in the diary, but the reasoning yes.

"I will honor my friend creating a dungeon with strong monsters. Even though I want to be ultra safe and I will add some typical rogueish trap, blocking the access to the ones who use exclusively brute force. Tee-hee"

This is exactly the kind of reasoning you write down in a diary.

However, being Serini a chaotic rogue, she could also have written some lies in her own diary, if she wanted to or if she expected it to be found by evil guys. Maybe reading it you think that you should act in some way to unlock the gate, but there is something hidden that will defend it.

As I explained, writing down the coordinates of the other gates in the diary and then lying about her own dungeon makes no sense. At least if she wasn't the kind of person "screw them, just let make safe only my own dungeon."

Even more if one thinks that hiding some coordinates is incredibly simply: you double them, writing a couple on the diary and a couple in another place (like a medallion or a box you hide under a tree in the garden) so that you can find the true coordinates only summing the couples.

like
gate 1: diary 1: 20 North, 120 East; medallion/box 1: -50, 30 (true coordinates 30 South, 150 East)
...

That way not only if one doesn't get both the couples he can't find the place, but if one gets his dirty hands only on the diary, he will end up in a totally random place, finding nothing and, since he doesn't know about the trick, will probably think that the diary is just full of made up stories.

[Gurgeh]

Even before we get into alignments not being a straitjacket (consider how differently Roy and Durkon, two characters with the exact same alignment, approach problems) - there's also no evidence that Serini was chaotic.

[NerdyKris]

Even if now I don't remember if the "the dungeon will have strong monsters" is from her diary, but, if it is, the whole thing sounds quite a lucky coincidence (it means that she had a second thought about the defenses exactly after she stopped to write her diary).

The description of her dungeon came from Shojo. As far as we know Xykon and Redcloak have no idea about how the gates were being guarded. They just know who's guarding each one. Xykon didn't know that the sapphire held the actual gate until Ochul went to destroy it, and he didn't seem to understand how Dorukan's gate was protected, since he kept sending goblins in to test it.

[Ionathus]

You can't work coordinates out of descriptions.

My increasingly convoluted Thieves' Cant messages beg to differ.

[snowblizz]

The description of her dungeon came from Shojo. As far as we know Xykon and Redcloak have no idea about how the gates were being guarded. They just know who's guarding each one. Xykon didn't know that the sapphire held the actual gate until Ochul went to destroy it, and he didn't seem to understand how Dorukan's gate was protected, since he kept sending goblins in to test it.

Actually Miko is to blame. She almost got the sapphire when killing 'shojo, which 'hojo commnets on, and team evil catches as they can stll hear 'miko's scryed behind being caried out.

[Hopeless]

Spoiler

Show

Just a thought but what if everything was set up by Serini to finally end the world?

What if she sent her diary to X deliberately so he would ruin everything her group accomplished.

That marker on the statue tends to suggest things went downhill so what if THAT is the case and the Order is about to meet the reason for why Team Evil has gotten so far?

Could Belkar sacrificing himself be the impetus to bring Serini out of her psychotic breakdown enough to recognize the mistake she made and finally explain what actually happened back then and what is really going on?

Or is the next arc going to be the Order travelling into the Snarl's world to confront a god killing eldritch abomination in the ruins of the First World?!!

[KorvinStarmast]

Spoiler: last part of Hopeless spoiler

Show

Or is the next arc going to be the Order travelling into the Snarl's world to confront a god killing eldritch abomination in the ruins of the First World?!!

Nope.
The Order isn't powerful enough for that; remember how quickly the first world ended ... a matter of hours.
When Loki refers to something as "the god-killing abomination" that's not quite something a party of six can handle.

[Grey Watcher]

Do we know the diary is encrypted in the cipher sense? My Headcanon was that Serini's diary documented her journey, and if you knew certain landmarks or starting points, you could discern the end locations (which Xykon did because he knew where Lirians gate was). I can't remember if there's a strip/print page where the code is discussed in detail, so I don't know if there's anything to refute this.

It's implied that it's a cipher somehow. When Xykon first talks about to the diary, he mentions having to first translate the location of Lirian's Gate INTO the code in order to crack it.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Spoiler: last part of Hopeless spoiler

Show

Or is the next arc going to be the Order travelling into the Snarl's world to confront a god killing eldritch abomination in the ruins of the First World?!!

Nope.
The Order isn't powerful enough for that; remember how quickly the first world ended ... a matter of hours.
When Loki refers to something as "the god-killing abomination" that's not quite something a party of six can handle.

Maybe if this was final fantasy, they could surpass the gods, kill the snarl all the while inflicting max 9999 damage or more if they had the bypass damage limit ability. I'm inclined to agree with you.

Though, a story where the world ends, and the order does make it to the 1st world to confront the snarl who has evolved to some degree and isn't the killing machine it appears to be could be a thing.

A simple story ending would be "the order succeeds. the snarl is sealed. happily ever after the end."

A much different and convoluted story would be "snarl falls. everyone dies and is erased...the end?" and the people who are killed by the snarl aren't erased but absorbed and made immortal inside the world of the snarl. no pain no conflict. nothing. The snarl lacking the ability to communicate outside its world can only "attack" and upon destruction, its victims are instead dragged into its world, with the snarl acting as dungeon master. playing with its victims on a whim, and doing as it pleases.

If this were the case, I guess the only way to beat it would be the likes of new godly might like the purple god the dark one making a pantheon to combat it, but thats getting ahead of myself.

Whether you want a more simple ending, or something more convoluted is up to you, but maybe a simpler ending would be best. No use jumping the shark after all.

[Edea]

Xykon's the final boss, not the Snarl.

Now, Xykon might do something to the Snarl in order to harness it prior to the big fight (likely after Redcloak gets thoroughly hoisted by his own undead petard), but it'll still be Xykon. Such a situation might play out like Final Fantasy 6, with the Snarl taking the place of the Warring Triad and Xykon taking the place of Kefka (and Redcloak taking the place of Gestahl).

Also, I think said fight should happen in Xykon's astral fortress, not at Kraagor's tomb. Its appearance has 'final dungeon' written all over it.

[Goblin_Priest]

We still need to somehow reconcile the "there's a planet and lots of water beyond the rifts" we see in Azure City and the Desert, and the "there's a powerful threat inside that can lash out" from the desert, the crayons, and the gods.

Why is there a planet with lots of water beyond the rift, and why don't the gods know anything about it?

[KorvinStarmast]

and why don't the gods know anything about it?

That seems to me to be the key question, per Belkar in strip 900
Maybe someone's been yanking everyone's chain

[Metastachydium]

That seems to me to be the key question, per Belkar in strip 900
Maybe someone's been yanking everyone's chain

I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.

[BeerMug Paladin]

I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.

We don't know who gave the backstory about the Snarl's creation to the Sapphire Guard. So it could have been the 12 gods, or just one of them, like Rat or Pig, It also could have been Marduk, or Odin or Loki. But it almost certainly wasn't information supplied to them from all of the gods. So it's quite possible that some key information about the Snarl's genesis or possibly nature is known to only one god. So at the very least, it's possible that one god is "tricking" the others by allowing them to continue to believe an incomplete account of the Snarl's genesis and basic nature.

But, without any named characters having a means to get that information into the story, I kind of doubt that a god is going to be the source of a twist regarding the Snarl's nature at this point. Even if one of the gods is "tricking" people by allowing a not-complete account of the Snarl to propagate, there would have to be a way for that "trick" to mean something to the story. The "trick" would have to be worth maintaining over the many, many worlds that have existed in all this time. And I just don't see how that could be the case here. Granted, we know there's a bugbear shaman out there who doesn't worship The Dark One, but I'm still skeptical of this idea.

[Hekko]

There's also the matter that the general location of Soon's Gate would be obvious from the briefest of descriptions rather than coordinates--"It's in Azure City".

Was the city there, named that way, when the Scribblers were there? The palace and the throne room were certainly built around the rift.

I also think that Serini may have included the locations of the gates in her diary BEFORE the party disbanded, so whatever defenses she knew about and decided to mention could be in a different part of it. Do we know if they only visited each rift once as a party (to seal each rift)? Or would they visit some of them several times, to research them so they could come up with the sealing spell(s) - and then, after they disbanded, each headed for the rift they were assigned to build its defences.

I'm not sure Belkar is correct in assuming that there is a specific someone doing that: apparently it's not the gods (since they seem to be none the wiser), and I can't quite see who else would have that kind of power.

The Dark One? Perhaps he put in some research of his own? He's a god and we know nearly nothing about what he's doing around nowish.

[hamishspence]

Was the city there, named that way, when the Scribblers were there?

You can see a mass of blue buildings in the crayon panel with the Azure City rift:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html


And Soon talks about them being on a trip away from Azure City, in the previous strip:

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html