D&D 5e Powergamer's Tactics Room Deep Dive Series: Optimized Bladesinger

[Bilbron]

Be honest... you've wondered. He talks a good game, but does Bilbron Bafflestone really know what the heck he's talking about? Take a look at Bilbron Bladesinger to find out.

32:08

https://youtu.be/ou0AYKbl8LA

It's been pointed out to me that I was mistaken about rapiers and you would have to use short swords or scimitars. Everything the same except the -1 damage bump. Many apologies for the error.

[bendking]

Interesting build, I like the creative thinking with Magic Stone and Tiny Servants.
However, I'm not entirely sure what about this build actually uses the ability of the Bladesinger in particular, it seems as if these are strategies any Wizard can do.

[Gtdead]

I like it. It's a bit different that what I'd do with the subclass, but it's effective.

My input is that while fireball is strong at lvl 5 and I like that you picked it, past some level, which I'd say is 7 to 9, fireball will start losing steam, so it's a good idea to swap it out. Haste is always a good option and I think that people really underestimate the +2 to AC. I'm a defensive minded player as well, although I kind of like optimizing numbers past a certain level and that +2 AC can be very effective, considering that it's primarily an offensive spell.

Another one that I'm in the process of testing is Summon Fey. Theoretically it can offer very good damage and obscurement so it has a lot of potential, although it is limited by range. It also has a lot of upcasting value if you can make it work.

And of course, sleetstorm, slow or counterspell.

[Bilbron]

Interesting build, I like the creative thinking with Magic Stone and Tiny Servants.
However, I'm not entirely sure what about this build actually uses the ability of the Bladesinger in particular, it seems as if these are strategies any Wizard can do.

The idea is that, in Tier 1 and 2, he's swinging a sword and supported by spells and Summons, but gradually in Tier 3 and 4 he starts slinging spells more often and just wades into battle for the fun of it, or if he's completely tapped.

I'm trying to do this thematically, so no xbows or playing from the back. I'm doing an Order of Scribes optimization next and he'll be much more of that flavor. This guy looks down on wizards who don't know the feel of taking a critical now and then.

I like it. It's a bit different that what I'd do with the subclass, but it's effective.

My input is that while fireball is strong at lvl 5 and I like that you picked it, past some level, which I'd say is 7 to 9, fireball will start losing steam, so it's a good idea to swap it out. Haste is always a good option and I think that people really underestimate the +2 to AC. I'm a defensive minded player as well, although I kind of like optimizing numbers past a certain level and that +2 AC can be very effective, considering that it's primarily an offensive spell.

Another one that I'm in the process of testing is Summon Fey. Theoretically it can offer very good damage and obscurement so it has a lot of potential, although it is limited by range. It also has a lot of upcasting value if you can make it work.

And of course, sleetstorm or counterspell.

Fair about Fireball, maybe drop it for Fire Shield at some point.

I LOVE Haste on my Hide Wizard (extra Hide action every round, and generated by my familiar and his spell gem so outsourced), and thought about it here. I would definitely consider it if I can outsource the Heavy Obscurement... otherwise it has to be Pyrotechnics on Round 1 and Haste on Round 2. Not the best action economy, though the extra Attack on Round 2 from the Haste is really nice. Still, I'm more of a "use my concentration on Summon Greater Demon or Polymorph and not personal buffs" kind of guy.

I love Sleet Storm, would love to work it in if I can get it in the book. Not such a fan of Counterspell since you don't know what you're counterspelling... I prefer to just Dispel Magic on something bad if it's actually somewhat debilitating and not just a Ray of Sickness or something.

The presentation was good, do you think? I tried to present the info in a comprehensible way, even though it was really long by my standards (usually shoot for 10 minutes, but some of these Deep Dives have to go over).

[MaxWilson]

Some quick thoughts:

You're relying quite a lot on obscurement, and moreover on IMMOBILE heavy obscurement, which means you need a way to ensure that the rest of the party will actively want to be in your obscurement instead of elsewhere. If you're sitting there in your little Pyrotechnics cloud while the Barbarian charges the Mind Flayer on his own it's going to turn out poorly. IMO this aspect needs to be addressed up front when presenting an obscurement-heavy strategy. If the whole party has blindsight and ranged weaponry then you'll be fine; if they have ranged weapons but not blindsight it might be fine, depending on how strictly your DM follows RAW on heavy obscurement and how they inclined they are to let monsters Hide and how many AoEs they use (your party will be in Fireball Formation). If they're a melee heavy party without blindsight you're going to have to switch strategies to Blur or something.

Tiny Servants technically aren't allowed to end their move in your space (unless you are also Tiny), so can't be kept in your backpack.

I feel that you are overrating Spirit Shroud. You'd be better off just sticking to Dragon's Breath and using your 3rd level pick on something else, possibly Hypnotic Pattern (for when other PCs won't stay in obscurement) or Magic Circle (to plug that hole in your demonic Planar Binding strategy: keeping the demon immobilized while you cast the spell) or Phantom Steed.

I also feel that you're overrating Fire Shield. The whole point of your build is trying not to be hit. Fire Shield does minor damage every time you're hit. Clearly there's an antisynergy there--the only time you'll get real use out of Fire Shield is when you're Polymorphed, which you should avoid doing because concentration, and even then you're not going to do enough damage to justify the Fire Shield spell slot and action economy cost. Replace with something else, possibly Glyph of Warding to plug the OTHER hole in your Summon Greater Demon strategy (keeping the demon around for a full hour while you cast the spell). Alternatively get another caster (or your Simulacrum) to cast the spell and hold concentration for you, and then you can spend your pick on something else here like Greater Invisibility (again for the non-obscurement case) or something RP-awesome like Fabricate for the sheer joy of making stuff whenever you want.

Spoiler: Tangent: Fabricate and why I love it.

Show

"While you were eating lunch I sculpted a fountain in the river in the shape of a dragon spewing water from its mouth." "I made a miniature statue of my mom." "I built a bridge." "I made fifty thousand arrows." "I reforged all the hobgoblin armor into kitchen utensils to sell." "I turned that dead dragon's skin into dragonhide armor for druids." Maybe it's just me but I find Fabricate appealing for its speed and permanency. I suspect it could substitute for Passwall in many cases, despite taking more time to cast. "I turned part of the castle wall into two hundred chess sets." Much depends though on whether the DM interprets "products of the same material" to require only a single object (one chess piece), per the other text in the spell, or if multiple conceptually similar objects are allowed (per example "clothes" in the spell text, not just "an item of clothing") as long as they fit within the required space.

Fair about Fireball, maybe drop it for Fire Shield at some point.

I don't agree, non-concentration AoEs never go out of style. Mobs of foes are always dangerous, even at high level. If you fight only one or two foes at a time you'll beat them via spells like Maze and Forcecage and Summon Greater Demon, but if you fight eight or ten enemies you want AoEs like Fireball and Synaptic Static. In any case you will get more value out of Fireball than Fire Shield.

[Bilbron]

Some quick thoughts:

You're relying quite a lot on obscurement, and moreover on IMMOBILE heavy obscurement, which means you need a way to ensure that the rest of the party will actively want to be in your obscurement instead of elsewhere. If you're sitting there in your little Pyrotechnics cloud while the Barbarian charges the Mind Flayer on his own it's going to turn out poorly. IMO this aspect needs to be addressed up front when presenting an obscurement-heavy strategy. If the whole party has blindsight and ranged weaponry then you'll be fine; if they have ranged weapons but not blindsight it might be fine, depending on how strictly your DM follows RAW on heavy obscurement and how they inclined they are to let monsters Hide and how many AoEs they use (your party will be in Fireball Formation). If they're a melee heavy party without blindsight you're going to have to switch strategies to Blur or something.

Tiny Servants technically aren't allowed to end their move in your space (unless you are also Tiny), so can't be kept in your backpack.

I feel that you are overrating Spirit Shroud. You'd be better off just sticking to Dragon's Breath and using your 3rd level pick on something else, possibly Hypnotic Pattern (for when other PCs won't stay in obscurement) or Magic Circle (to plug that hole in your demonic Planar Binding strategy: keeping the demon immobilized while you cast the spell) or Phantom Steed.

I also feel that you're overrating Fire Shield. The whole point of your build is trying not to be hit. Fire Shield does minor damage every time you're hit. Clearly there's an antisynergy there--the only time you'll get real use out of Fire Shield is when you're Polymorphed, which you should avoid doing because concentration, and even then you're not going to do enough damage to justify the Fire Shield spell slot and action economy cost. Replace with something else, possibly Glyph of Warding to plug the OTHER hole in your Summon Greater Demon strategy (keeping the demon around for a full hour while you cast the spell). Alternatively get another caster (or your Simulacrum) to cast the spell and hold concentration for you, and then you can spend your pick on something else here like Greater Invisibility (again for the non-obscurement case) or something RP-awesome like Fabricate for the sheer joy of making stuff whenever you want.

Spoiler: Tangent: Fabricate and why I love it.

Show

"While you were eating lunch I sculpted a fountain in the river in the shape of a dragon spewing water from its mouth." "I made a miniature statue of my mom." "I built a bridge." "I made fifty thousand arrows." "I reforged all the hobgoblin armor into kitchen utensils to sell." "I turned that dead dragon's skin into dragonhide armor for druids." Maybe it's just me but I find Fabricate appealing for its speed and permanency. I suspect it could substitute for Passwall in many cases, despite taking more time to cast. "I turned part of the castle wall into two hundred chess sets." Much depends though on whether the DM interprets "products of the same material" to require only a single object (one chess piece), per the other text in the spell, or if multiple conceptually similar objects are allowed (per example "clothes" in the spell text, not just "an item of clothing") as long as they fit within the required space.

Yes, it's immobile as I didn't want to incorporate items but an Eversmoking Bottle really opens up this build. As it stands, it would require some party assistance with battlefield controls and grappling and such to keep the AOE relevant. I also had in mind that the BS would close the range then pop the obscurement so it's on the line and they'd have to relocate to avoid it, which isn't always situationally possible. With only a couple slots and BS per day, I'd definitely use it opportunistically.

YMMV with party construction. Ideally everyone optimizes for Heavy Obscurement; if someone insists on a Conquest Paladin, I'd go in another direction.

I'm not making my stand on Spirit Shroud, by any means. I just kinda wanted to work in another Tasha's spell. I can see keeping Dragon's Breath; I can see using Shadowblade and a backup sword. This build isn't written in stone!

The Tiny Servant thing not being allowed in the backpack is a new one on me. Does this apply to familiars as well?

I'm not in love with Fire Shield, and though I add it to the book, I don't prep it until 18th level. Definitely some wiggle room there if you want to add Conjure Elemental or something.

I do love Fabricate on Bilbron Bafflestone but I picked it up from a captured spellbook... tough to justify dropping one of the two spells you get per level on it. But if you're really playing that long game, it makes sense!

I also recommend picking up Glyph of Warding on a scroll in the video, but it's just too hard to put it into my 4 3rd level spells gained from levelling. I would definitely recommend cheesin' up GoW as much as possible!

I don't agree, non-concentration AoEs never go out of style. Mobs of foes are always dangerous, even at high level. If you fight only one or two foes at a time you'll beat them via spells like Maze and Forcecage and Summon Greater Demon, but if you fight eight or ten enemies you want AoEs like Fireball and Synaptic Static. In any case you will get more value out of Fireball than Fire Shield.

I hear that and still personally prefer Fireball (just tryin' not to be too dogmatic!). I balanced this list very heavily with concentration and non-concentration spells, and Fireball is a really nice one to pop out on occasion, especially since the build doesn't require anything out of the 3rd level slot and you can Fireball away if you like.

Plus I don't have any blasts on Bilbron Bafflestone and it just sounded fun and thematic, lol.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, it's immobile as I didn't want to incorporate items but an Eversmoking Bottle really opens up this build. As it stands, it would require some party assistance with battlefield controls and grappling and such to keep the AOE relevant.

The Tiny Servant thing not being allowed in the backpack is a new one on me. Does this apply to familiars as well?

Technically as written it applies to every creature in the game, which means humans can't cuddle kittens, which is why "technically as written" is not a compliment. It's a weird restriction--you're literally forbidden from putting four people inside the same normal-sized 5' x 7' elevator. They can move through each other's space as difficult terrain but can't end a move sharing a 5' x 5' space.

As a DM I'd let you squeeze more friendlies into the same space, but I'd impose the same penalties as the PHB's Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces rule, which in this case means combat penalties for you and the Tiny Servants--there's just not enough room for you all to fight without bumping into each other. Ask your DM.

[Bilbron]

Technically as written it applies to every creature in the game, which means humans can't cuddle kittens, which is why "technically as written" is not a compliment. It's a weird restriction--you're literally forbidden from putting four people inside the same normal-sized 5' x 7' elevator. They can move through each other's space as difficult terrain but can't end a move sharing a 5' x 5' space.

As a DM I'd let you squeeze more friendlies into the same space, but I'd impose the same penalties as the PHB's Squeezing Into Smaller Spaces rule, which in this case means combat penalties for you and the Tiny Servants--there's just not enough room for you all to fight without bumping into each other. Ask your DM.

Gotta love D&D, lol.

Many thanks for your (as always) cogent feedback and comments!

[Gignere]

Gotta love D&D, lol.

Many thanks for your (as always) cogent feedback and comments!

Tiny creatures can end up in your space they can do it via using you as an intelligent mount. The mounts rule allows two creatures of different sizes to share a space. So if they spend their movement to mount on you they can share the same space.

[Corran]

I think counterspell deserved a bit more love. I get that it doesn't play well with ending your turn inside a fog cloud/ pyrotechnics (or behind total cover, or too far away; though these last two dont have to be too much of an issue for a bladesinger). But counterspell can also be useful as a reaction during your own turn, because you've got spells that require sight to use (effectively), and if an enemy starts casting simultaneously, even if you are playing with Xanathar rules it's a safe bet to assume it's a counterspell (which you'd want to counterspell if what you are casting is important). Could also be useful whenever you can't rely on breaking line of sight (or when you can't do it fast enough because you cannot use an outside source for it), or if you roll too low on initiative sometimes. You dont get many things that play to its strength (like see invisibility, greater invisibility, true seeing; you do get the opportunity for better positioning though), but you'll at least get subtle (and telepathy, though I suspect this was intended more as an out of combat pick) later on, so at least it's worth considering during the late levels. I'd probably want to have it sooner, but you know, I may have just gotten used to it a bit too much.

I like how you picked alert and prioritized it to stuff like dex bumps that are often advocated as more important. But alert is not only good defensively for a wizard. Going first is a good advantage on its own, and you already have spells that could benefit from going faster than (some of) the enemies, but a particular type of spells that benefit the most in such an occasion are AoE's that inflict friendly damage (damage not necessarily in the literal sense). And you've only got fireball for this. I would add at least one more, probably picked among the likes of hypnotic pattern, fear, sickening radiance, confusion and synaptic static (also web or Evard's black tentacles, which can help utilize better your minions). Have enough enemies bunched up during your first turn, and such spells can be really (cost-) efficient (slot wise, duration wise, or both).

This probably falls in the ''ask your DM territory'', but since you are picking both SGD and planar binding (and at the same time you dont include magic circle as a default option), it's worth checking if the material component of SGD (blood circle) can be used as an improved version of magic circle when it comes to binding SGD creatures.

I love the idea of using magic stone and tiny servants against enemies (inside the fog cloud/pyrotechnics?). Mental prison, telekinesis, bigby's hand, web, Evard's, can all be useful when you are using lots of summons but at the same time you cannot rely on obscurement from one of your spells/items (or you need a demon or two with no blindsight).

Nitpick. Forcecage from a simulacrum slot will start being a thing from level 15 and on. Plane shift and rope trick can be used as an improved teleport, though it wont be as successful as an escape option (especially if your play is happening only in the material plane). Just mentioned it in case you haven't thought or stumbled on it yet (I know I didn't come up with it on my own).


Solid stuff. I may ended up doing these one or two things differently (always regarding optimization and nothing more), but it could always be more due to habit (trust what I am used to doing, or just trust in conventional wisdom). Still, many ideas I hadn't considered, and some stuff I've read before but I had forgotten about.

[MaxWilson]

Tiny creatures can end up in your space they can do it via using you as an intelligent mount. The mounts rule allows two creatures of different sizes to share a space. So if they spend their movement to mount on you they can share the same space.

The mount also has to have "an appropriate anatomy."

A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount, using the following rules.

Mounting and Dismounting
Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to mount a horse. Therefore, you can't mount it if you don't have 15 feet of movement left or if your speed is 0.
If an effect moves your mount against its will while you're on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you're knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.
If your mount is knocked prone, you can use your reaction to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall prone in a space within 5 feet it.

Heh. I just noticed that there's no limit given on how many creatures can ride a given mount. Instead of claiming that all the PCs can ride the same Phantom Steed, I guess I'll just say that's a DM judgment call, sort of like what "appropriate anatomy" means.

I like how you picked alert and prioritized it to stuff like dex bumps that are often advocated as more important. But alert is not only good defensively for a wizard. Going first is a good advantage on its own, and you already have spells that could benefit from going faster than (some of) the enemies, but a particular type of spells that benefit the most in such an occasion are AoE's that inflict friendly damage (damage not necessarily in the literal sense). And you've only got fireball for this. I would add at least one more, probably picked among the likes of hypnotic pattern, fear, sickening radiance, confusion and synaptic static. (B) Have enough enemies bunched up during your first turn, and such spells can be really (cost-) efficient (slot wise, duration wise, or both).

This probably falls in the ''ask your DM territory'', but since you are picking both SGD and planar binding (and at the same time you dont include magic circle as a default option), it's worth checking if the material component of SGD can be used as an (A) improved version of magic circle when it comes to binding SGD creatures.

(A) Hmmm, you're right. I was cognizant of the "it can’t target anyone within it" restriction, but I overlooked "can't cross the circle or harm it". The other remaining sticky point is whether you can choose to make the demon appear within the circle, but thematically it seems reasonable. "Ask your DM" indeed but it seems like this ought to work--but you still need someone else to concentrate on Summon Greater Demon for an hour, or the demon will vanish long before you can finish Planar Binding. Unlike Conjure Elemental, Summon Greater Demon does not produce creatures which stick around for a full hour after you lose concentration. Rules reminder: casting a spell that takes more than 1 action to cast, like Planar Binding, requires your concentration for the full casting time.

(B) I see this kind of comment a lot and it makes me wonder how other DMs structure their games. In my games, enemies are actually more likely to be spread out initially doing other things, not bunched up. When they become aware of PCs, they may come running in from other rooms or burrowing up through the floor. In my games, ideally you'd want to Fireball/AoE only AFTER the melee monsters have started ganging up on PCs, if they do.

E.g. there might be three Star Spawn Grues down that hallway a short ways, gyrating insanely, and a Star Spawn Hulk and two more Grues sniffing fungoids in the fungus room you're standing next to, and a Mangler about to turn the corner and notice you and give the shrieking alarm. If you win initiative and Fireball the Mangler immediately you'll hit fewer targets than if you summon a meatshield for the Mangler to mangle and then Fireball on round 2 after the Grues and Hulk show up, gibbering as they do.

[Gignere]

The mount also has to have "an appropriate anatomy."

A willing creature that is at least one size larger than you and that has an appropriate anatomy can serve as a mount, using the following rules.

Mounting and Dismounting
Once during your move, you can mount a creature that is within 5 feet of you or dismount. Doing so costs an amount of movement equal to half your speed. For example, if your speed is 30 feet, you must spend 15 feet of movement to mount a horse. Therefore, you can't mount it if you don't have 15 feet of movement left or if your speed is 0.
If an effect moves your mount against its will while you're on it, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity saving throw or fall off the mount, landing prone in a space within 5 feet of it. If you're knocked prone while mounted, you must make the same saving throw.
If your mount is knocked prone, you can use your reaction to dismount it as it falls and land on your feet. Otherwise, you are dismounted and fall prone in a space within 5 feet it.

Heh. I just noticed that there's no limit given on how many creatures can ride a given mount. Instead of claiming that all the PCs can ride the same Phantom Steed, I guess I'll just say that's a DM judgment call, sort of like what "appropriate anatomy" means.

You’re going to argue humanoids don’t have appropriate anatomy to be mounted? So you never seen parents carry their kids on their shoulders to play horsie?

[Bilbron]

I think counterspell deserved a bit more love. I get that it doesn't play well with ending your turn inside a fog cloud/ pyrotechnics (or behind total cover, or too far away; though these last two dont have to be too much of an issue for a bladesinger). But counterspell can also be useful as a reaction during your own turn, because you've got spells that require sight to use (effectively), and if an enemy starts casting simultaneously, even if you are playing with Xanathar rules it's a safe bet to assume it's a counterspell (which you'd want to counterspell if what you are casting is important). Could also be useful whenever you can't rely on breaking line of sight (or when you can't do it fast enough because you cannot use an outside source for it), or if you roll too low on initiative sometimes. You dont get many things that play to its strength (like see invisibility, greater invisibility, true seeing; you do get the opportunity for better positioning though), but you'll at least get subtle (and telepathy, though I suspect this was intended more as an out of combat pick) later on, so at least it's worth considering during the late levels. I'd probably want to have it sooner, but you know, I may have just gotten used to it a bit too much.

I like how you picked alert and prioritized it to stuff like dex bumps that are often advocated as more important. But alert is not only good defensively for a wizard. Going first is a good advantage on its own, and you already have spells that could benefit from going faster than (some of) the enemies, but a particular type of spells that benefit the most in such an occasion are AoE's that inflict friendly damage (damage not necessarily in the literal sense). And you've only got fireball for this. I would add at least one more, probably picked among the likes of hypnotic pattern, fear, sickening radiance, confusion and synaptic static. Have enough enemies bunched up during your first turn, and such spells can be really (cost-) efficient (slot wise, duration wise, or both).

This probably falls in the ''ask your DM territory'', but since you are picking both SGD and planar binding (and at the same time you dont include magic circle as a default option), it's worth checking if the material component of SGD can be used as an improved version of magic circle when it comes to binding SGD creatures.

I love the idea of using magic stone and tiny servants against enemies (inside the fog cloud/pyrotechnics?). Mental prison, telekinesis, bigby's hand, web, Evard's, can all be useful when you are using lots of summons but at the same time you cannot rely on obscurement from one of your spells/items (or you need a demon or two with no blindsight).

Nitpick. Forcecage from a simulacrum slot will start being a thing from level 15 and on. Plane shift and rope trick can be used as an improved teleport, though it wont be as successful as an escape option (especially if your play is happening only in the material plane). Just mentioned it in case you haven't thought or stumbled on it yet (I know I didn't come up with it on my own).


Solid stuff. I may ended up doing these one or two things differently (always regarding optimization and nothing more), but it could always be more due to habit (trust what I am used to doing, or just trust in conventional wisdom). Still, many ideas I hadn't considered, and some stuff I've read before but I had forgotten about.

Great reply, many thanks!

I do like Counterspell for being able to Counterspell a Counterspell. That's it's only reliable use. But you have to make hard decisions as you can't have everything, and like I said, I typically prefer Dispel Magic. But I have prepped Counterspell in the past and even used it once (Ray of Sickness, turns out, lol, which is why I keep bringing that up). A lot depends on preference, playstyle, and campaign. Throw in that Counterspell isn't good from Heavy Obscurement and it's just too high opportunity cost to take, IMO.

I considered another blast, but it just seemed like I had so much offense already and you have to find room for defense and utility. I know that's hard for many offensive-minded players to accept however, lol. Feel free to stack in more offense if you like! Synaptic Static would be tasty for sure, just have to drop something for it... maybe Passwall. That one could get dusty while SS gets used often, for sure. I also considered Otiluke's Freezing Sphere for its massive AOE and stacking ability, but 6th level slots are so premium I passed on it in the end.

Tiny Servant + Magic Stone just seemed too good for a guy working out of Heavy Obscurement most of the time, with their Blindsight and all. I'm a sucker for elegant combos like that.

Point taken on Forcecage, and very nice trick with the Plane Shift! I will use that.

I really do very much appreciate posts like this (and from Max)... this forum has some sharp cookies.

[MaxWilson]

You’re going to argue humanoids don’t have appropriate anatomy to be mounted? So you never seen parents carry their kids on their shoulders to play horsie?

Have you ever seen a parent fight a fencing match while carrying a kid on their shoulders? For good reason--we really don't have a good anatomy for that style of carrying. It limits your motion too much. You're at least as constrained in your movements as you would be squeezed into an elevator with three other people--disadvantage on attacks and Dex saves and advantage to attacks while mounted like that would totally make sense.

And that style wouldn't work with multiple Tiny Servants anyway.

I really do very much appreciate posts like this (and from Max)... this forum has some sharp cookies.

I agree, always nice to see a post from @Corran.

[Bilbron]

Have you ever seen a parent fight a fencing match while carrying a kid on their shoulders? For good reason--we really don't have a good anatomy for that style of carrying. It limits your motion too much. You're at least as constrained in your movements as you would be squeezed into an elevator with three other people--disadvantage on attacks and Dex saves and advantage to attacks while mounted like that would totally make sense.

And that style wouldn't work with multiple Tiny Servants anyway.

I agree, always nice to see a post from @Corran.

I make my TS from silver coins and it just seems like common sense that they would EASILY fit into a backpack. But the rules are pretty strict and definitely a DM could make hay about it. Fortunately for me my DM is pretty common sensible.

I should also mention that I liked the idea of 2 weapons in level 1-7 but clearly didn't understand the mechanic well enough and it seems to be more trouble than it's worth. So I won't try to play around with it when I roll this out someday and will just go with a single longsword or something and rely on BB.

[Unoriginal]

Take a look at Bilbron Bladesinger to find out.

32:08

Well, let's take a look, shall we?

-Booming Blade with bonus action (at ~7:00):

You cannot use the bonus action from Two-Weapons Fighting with Booming Blade, whether you're using rapiers or a short swords, as Booming Blade is not the Attack action (it is the Cast a Spell action, even if it involves making an attack).

Two-Weapon Fighting
When you take the Attack action and attack with a light melee weapon that you're holding in one hand, you can use a bonus action to attack with a different light melee weapon that you're holding in the other hand

PHB p.195.

You would only be able to use Attack action-Booming (or Green Flame) Blade-TWF bonus action from lvl 6 onward.

-Fog Cloud (at ~8:00):

No mention of the ways Fog Cloud's heavy obscurement *still* affects the caster, even with the Alert feat. Notably, it completely prevents the use of Toll the Dead, Mind Sliver and any of the other spell requiring to see the creature by the PC too. To say nothing of the fact that since the character has both advantage and disadvantage due to not seeing and not being seen by the target of the attacks, it makes the PC unable to gain advantage from any other source.

Also worth mentioning, while Booming Blade may prevent one enemy to move out of the fog:

a) it takes two rounds to set up this combo, meaning it only works in surprise situation or if one of the enemies decide to just stand in the fog where they can't see anything for some reason when it's their turn.

b) if there is more than one enemy, even if the combo does work on one, now you'll have to handle the others, who can just walk out of the fog, after you've loudly declared yourself the caster. Or you can stay in the obscurement and have your teammates face the other monsters without you.

Furthermore, and extremely important: by heavily obscuring the enemies, you're hindering everyone else in your team too. All the enemies in the obscurement can also disengage freely (so goodbye OA-boosting features), all enemies in it can use the Hide action, most PCs relying on attack rolls will have an harder time finding and sometime hitting their target (although this is DM dependent to an extent) and all PCs wanting to use a need-to-see-the-creature effect or spell won't be able to, until the enemies manage to leave the fog.

Meaning you're at minimum hindering everyone whose initiative result is between yours and the enemies', and at best just creating a zone where people won't fight unless forced to (which is Fog Cloud's main purpose, but not one which work with your tactic).


So Fog Cloud (and the other heavy obscurment methods you propose later on) + the tactic you're suggesting is really far from as good as you're painting it to be.

"Can only be hit by a crit" (at ~10.22)

That's not how to-hit modifiers or AC work this edition. Even with a 18 AC from Bladesong and a +5 from Shield, your PC would have 23 AC.

A run-of-the-mill, CR 1/4 goblin has +4 to hit, meaning that your Bladesinger would be hit on a 19+.

A run-of-the-mill, CR 2 ogre has +6 to hit, meaning that your Bladesinger would be hit on a 17+.

Even if you want to argue that it's still really unlikely to hit 23 with disadvantage, that still doesn't make the "crit only" part of statement true, nor does it make the % of chances to hit your character you gave accurate.

And monsters with higher attack mods than +6 are going to keep showing up, while your PC's AC won't increase without magic items.

Pyrotechnics (at ~10:45):

Still no mention of how the Bladesinger is affected by the heavy obscurement as well.

Also no mention of how using Pyrotechnics + Dragon's Breath costs both of the PC's 2nd lvl spell slots for the day, meaning the combo will only be applicable to one fight per long rest. It's a boost in offense and defense certainly (especially compared to before 3rd level where this character relied on trying to melee heavily obscured foes for DPR), but it's an expensive one.

Spirit Shrough (at ~13:50):

Spirit Shroud is a 3rd level spell that gives your Bladesinger +1d8 damage per turn (or twice per turn if you've given up using your melee attack cantrips for Two-Weapon Fighting and if you hit twice). I don't see how it's superior to Dragon's Breath for your PC, at least at lvl 5. At lvl 6 it may be worthwhile.

Shapechange ("can now solo any monster") (at ~26:08):

It's a Concentration spell that requires an action to cast. Try to solo a monster with a decent Multiattack like that and you'll be lucky to get more than two rounds out of your 9th level spell.

Overall Build Review:

I'll grant you that, Bilbron: you have a good grasp of the basics of Wizardry. But that does not translate into mastery or even proficiency in Bladesinging.

You're proposing a build which makes significant uses of its melee attacks, while keeping +3 to its DEX for its entire career. While I'm a fervent advocate that you do not need to start with 16 to be competent, by mid-level you're going to suffer without at least a 18.

And that's not going into the saves. A +3 in DEX from lvl 1 to 20 without any method to mitigate the problems it creates or the HPs to tank is a huge weakness, especially when you take into account AoEs which don't care about obscurement. The same can be said about this Bladesinger's CON saves, until lvl 16. Your build's atrocious STR and CHA saves are going to be a problem less often, but anytime an effect targetting them come up you're going to feel like Glass Joe trying to fight Optimus Prime.

Speaking of Glass Joe, your video is also heavily downplaying how much being squishy will hinder your Bladesinger's performance. 62 HPs at lvl 10 for a melee character means they'll get in the danger zone fast and stay there for the rest of the fight, every fight. The familiar can help some but not enough to compensate all the times you'll have to play it safe just to survive another round.

Another of the obvious weaknesses of this build (although I can't place this one at Bilbron's feet as many supposedly Wizard builds have it): Shield and Absorb Elements. While they're great spells which do increase the survivability of casters tremendously, the fact is that they both use the caster's Reaction for the round, which means you can only use one of them as protection for said round. In other words, this Bladesinger build has an large weakness against any group (or individual monster) which can target both the PC's AC and one of its saves in the same round.

To those weaknesses, we can add what was mentioned above: The Two-Weapon + Booming Blade idea simply does not work by the rules until lvl 6 (at which point it only add a +3+proficiency-to-hit attack which adds +1d6 to the damage if it hits, at the cost of not using a more damaging weapon), and the heavy obscurement zone has all the issues of the well-known Darkness+Devil's Sight Warlock combo for both the PC and their adventuring party, with less benefits for the PC.

Final Judgement:

On paper, the Bilbron Bladesinger Build is not going to be weaker than any other wizard build using the same spell list. In practice, the tactics that are meant to go with it are going to be at best an annoyance and at worse an active hindrance to the rest of the party, for ultimately far too few benefits to the Bladesinger's performance to be worth it.

The BBB takes a class known to be a glass cannon with a versatile toolset, adds to it a subclass that makes it significantly less fragile in some instances, and then laser-focuses on those instances until it becomes a glass one-trick-pony with a not-particularly-effective trick which only shines when the one trick is helped by the circumstances or when it gives up relying on the one trick and re-use the class's versatile toolset.

[MaxWilson]

-Fog Cloud (at ~8:00):

(A) No mention of the ways Fog Cloud's heavy obscurement *still* affects the caster, even with the Alert feat. Notably, it completely prevents the use of Toll the Dead, Mind Sliver and any of the other spell requiring to see the creature by the PC too. To say nothing of the fact that since the character has both advantage and disadvantage due to not seeing and not being seen by the target of the attacks, it makes the PC unable to gain advantage from any other source.

...

So Fog Cloud (and the other heavy obscurment methods you propose later on) + the tactic you're suggesting is really far from as good as you're painting it to be.

"Can only be hit by a crit" (at ~10.22)

That's not how to-hit modifiers or AC work this edition. Even with a 18 AC from Bladesong and a +5 from Shield, your PC would have 23 AC.

A run-of-the-mill, CR 1/4 goblin has +4 to hit, meaning that your Bladesinger would be hit on a 19+.

A run-of-the-mill, CR 2 ogre has +6 to hit, meaning that your Bladesinger would be hit on a 17+.

Even if you want to argue that it's still really unlikely to hit 23 with disadvantage, (B) that still doesn't make the "crit only" part of statement true, nor does it make the % of chances to hit your character you gave accurate.

(A) It's acknowledged in passing at 6:47ish, when comparing the relative benefits of Alert vs. Blindsight.

(B) It's an example against an enemy with +2 to hit. It's right there on the screen starting at 4:36, and mentioned explicitly at 7:33. Your math corrections don't apply here because that's not the enemy being discussed.

[Bilbron]

Well, let's take a look, shall we?

-Booming Blade with bonus action (at ~7:00):

You cannot use the bonus action from Two-Weapons Fighting with Booming Blade, whether you're using rapiers or a short swords, as Booming Blade is not the Attack action (it is the Cast a Spell action, even if it involves making an attack).



PHB p.195.

You would only be able to use Attack action-Booming (or Green Flame) Blade-TWF bonus action from lvl 6 onward.

-Fog Cloud (at ~8:00):

No mention of the ways Fog Cloud's heavy obscurement *still* affects the caster, even with the Alert feat. Notably, it completely prevents the use of Toll the Dead, Mind Sliver and any of the other spell requiring to see the creature by the PC too. To say nothing of the fact that since the character has both advantage and disadvantage due to not seeing and not being seen by the target of the attacks, it makes the PC unable to gain advantage from any other source.

Also worth mentioning, while Booming Blade may prevent one enemy to move out of the fog:

a) it takes two rounds to set up this combo, meaning it only works in surprise situation or if one of the enemies decide to just stand in the fog where they can't see anything for some reason when it's their turn.

b) if there is more than one enemy, even if the combo does work on one, now you'll have to handle the others, who can just walk out of the fog, after you've loudly declared yourself the caster. Or you can stay in the obscurement and have your teammates face the other monsters without you.

Furthermore, and extremely important: by heavily obscuring the enemies, you're hindering everyone else in your team too. All the enemies in the obscurement can also disengage freely (so goodbye OA-boosting features), all enemies in it can use the Hide action, most PCs relying on attack rolls will have an harder time finding and sometime hitting their target (although this is DM dependent to an extent) and all PCs wanting to use a need-to-see-the-creature effect or spell won't be able to, until the enemies manage to leave the fog.

Meaning you're at minimum hindering everyone whose initiative result is between yours and the enemies', and at best just creating a zone where people won't fight unless forced to (which is Fog Cloud's main purpose, but not one which work with your tactic).


So Fog Cloud (and the other heavy obscurment methods you propose later on) + the tactic you're suggesting is really far from as good as you're painting it to be.

"Can only be hit by a crit" (at ~10.22)

That's not how to-hit modifiers or AC work this edition. Even with a 18 AC from Bladesong and a +5 from Shield, your PC would have 23 AC.

A run-of-the-mill, CR 1/4 goblin has +4 to hit, meaning that your Bladesinger would be hit on a 19+.

A run-of-the-mill, CR 2 ogre has +6 to hit, meaning that your Bladesinger would be hit on a 17+.

Even if you want to argue that it's still really unlikely to hit 23 with disadvantage, that still doesn't make the "crit only" part of statement true, nor does it make the % of chances to hit your character you gave accurate.

And monsters with higher attack mods than +6 are going to keep showing up, while your PC's AC won't increase without magic items.

Pyrotechnics (at ~10:45):

Still no mention of how the Bladesinger is affected by the heavy obscurement as well.

Also no mention of how using Pyrotechnics + Dragon's Breath costs both of the PC's 2nd lvl spell slots for the day, meaning the combo will only be applicable to one fight per long rest. It's a boost in offense and defense certainly (especially compared to before 3rd level where this character relied on trying to melee heavily obscured foes for DPR), but it's an expensive one.

Spirit Shrough (at ~13:50):

Spirit Shroud is a 3rd level spell that gives your Bladesinger +1d8 damage per turn (or twice per turn if you've given up using your melee attack cantrips for Two-Weapon Fighting and if you hit twice). I don't see how it's superior to Dragon's Breath for your PC, at least at lvl 5. At lvl 6 it may be worthwhile.

Shapechange ("can now solo any monster") (at ~26:08):

It's a Concentration spell that requires an action to cast. Try to solo a monster with a decent Multiattack like that and you'll be lucky to get more than two rounds out of your 9th level spell.

Overall Build Review:

I'll grant you that, Bilbron: you have a good grasp of the basics of Wizardry. But that does not translate into mastery or even proficiency in Bladesinging.

You're proposing a build which makes significant uses of its melee attacks, while keeping +3 to its DEX for its entire career. While I'm a fervent advocate that you do not need to start with 16 to be competent, by mid-level you're going to suffer without at least a 18.

And that's not going into the saves. A +3 in DEX from lvl 1 to 20 without any method to mitigate the problems it creates or the HPs to tank is a huge weakness, especially when you take into account AoEs which don't care about obscurement. The same can be said about this Bladesinger's CON saves, until lvl 16. Your build's atrocious STR and CHA saves are going to be a problem less often, but anytime an effect targetting them come up you're going to feel like Glass Joe trying to fight Optimus Prime.

Speaking of Glass Joe, your video is also heavily downplaying how much being squishy will hinder your Bladesinger's performance. 62 HPs at lvl 10 for a melee character means they'll get in the danger zone fast and stay there for the rest of the fight, every fight. The familiar can help some but not enough to compensate all the times you'll have to play it safe just to survive another round.

Another of the obvious weaknesses of this build (although I can't place this one at Bilbron's feet as many supposedly Wizard builds have it): Shield and Absorb Elements. While they're great spells which do increase the survivability of casters tremendously, the fact is that they both use the caster's Reaction for the round, which means you can only use one of them as protection for said round. In other words, this Bladesinger build has an large weakness against any group (or individual monster) which can target both the PC's AC and one of its saves in the same round.

To those weaknesses, we can add what was mentioned above: The Two-Weapon + Booming Blade idea simply does not work by the rules until lvl 6 (at which point it only add a +3+proficiency-to-hit attack which adds +1d6 to the damage if it hits, at the cost of not using a more damaging weapon), and the heavy obscurement zone has all the issues of the well-known Darkness+Devil's Sight Warlock combo for both the PC and their adventuring party, with less benefits for the PC.

Final Judgement:

On paper, the Bilbron Bladesinger Build is not going to be weaker than any other wizard build using the same spell list. In practice, the tactics that are meant to go with it are going to be at best an annoyance and at worse an active hindrance to the rest of the party, for ultimately far too few benefits to the Bladesinger themselves to be worth it.

The BBB takes a class known to be a glass cannon with a versatile toolset, adds to it a subclass that makes it significantly less fragile in some instances, and then laser-focuses on those instances until it becomes a glass one-trick-pony with a not-particularly-effective trick which only shines when the one trick is helped by the circumstances or when it gives up relying on the one trick and re-use the class's versatile toolset.

Wow, I appreciate the lengthy response!

Yes, I realize now the impracticality of trying to use 2 weapons, so I'll just go with a single, heavier one and BB. What can I say, I'm not good with weapons.

Yes, obscurement affects those things, but I also like having options for when I don't have the slots for obscurement or any BS left. Even Bilbron Bafflestone's spell list has 2 cantrips and 2 spells that require sight.

Yes, ideally you'll get an Eversmoking Bottle so you can move the obscurement around (and massive AOE), but I didn't want to assume items for this. Without it, you'll need some help with controls and grapples and such.

It's true that obscurement cancels all advantage and such, except for that conferred by Blindsight. I didn't feel the need to mention every little thing in a video already too long for my tastes.

Yes, your team should also ideally optimize to take advantage of your obscurement; if they resist or complain, I would go in another direction.

I stated that I was using +2 attack in the examples. Yes, higher attack values would hit more often. Sorry I didn't provide a graph, lol.

I didn't mention it, true, I kind of thought people could add up the number of uses and such themselves. I kind of thought it went without saying that this was an opportunistic thing and you didn't always have the juice to do these things over and over. I paid very close attention to slots and such, for example around levels 7 and 8 as I was rolling out SGD, Polymorph, and Tiny Servant for only 1 and then 2 slots.

I am doing a Deep Dive into Heavy Obscurement itself and chose to reserve much of the nuanced discussion for that video. This video is 32 minutes and I shoot for 10. Can't cover everything. I want to cover dips, as well... I have notes, but not the time, so might make for a good followup.

Spirit Shroud could definitely be replaced by Dragon's Breath or Shadow Blade/backup sword. I wanted to get a few Tasha's spells in, so call it a thematic preference.

Shapechange still seems awesome to me with Bladesong buffing your concentration checks, but I admit that my knowledge of how to practically use 9th level spells in actual gameplay is extremely limited. I do appreciate any nuances contributed by players more experienced with high level play.

I don't expect the Bladesinger to challenge other wizard subdomains... I rated it poor for a reason. But I like it thematically, and try to build that way. Being invincible is itself a theme, and I already did that, so with this build I'm trying to make a Bladesinger who WANTS to fight, who enjoys it. So no xbows or fighting from the back, even if that makes more sense if pursuing the Invincible Theme.

Thanks again for the detailed points of discussion!

[MaxWilson]

Oh! I just noticed this bit: "Shapechange... You can literally solo any monster by yourself at this point because you can just take their shape, and it's going to be a blade-singing shape."

Just want to mention that Shapechange won't let you turn into undead (so no Shapechanging into an Atropal to generate hundreds of Wraiths--you have to use True Polymorph for that), or any monster with a CR greater than your level. And yes, there are plenty of monsters with CR > 20, which means you can never shapechange into them unless you do something crazy to acquire a CR > 20 first. E.g. if you True Polymorph the an Empyrean into a kobold, then Magic Jar into that kobold, then stop concentrating on True Polymorph and then cast Shapechange (Ancient Silver Dragon)... you might succeed in temporarily becoming a dragon. But it might not work, ask your DM.

[Unoriginal]

Yes, I realize now the impracticality of trying to use 2 weapons, so I'll just go with a single, heavier one and BB. What can I say, I'm not good with weapons.

Probably should add something in your video's description about how BB doesn't work with TWF until lvl 6, to avoid confusing the watcher.

I stated that I was using +2 attack in the examples. Yes, higher attack values would hit more often. Sorry I didn't provide a graph, lol.

Don't need to provide a graph, but given how creatures with +2 to hit are generally non-threats like Commoners, it's not really relevant to mention this particular mod and only result in giving the watcher a false impression of how effective the AC is.

I didn't mention it, true, I kind of thought people could add up the number of uses and such themselves. I kind of thought it went without saying that this was an opportunistic thing and you didn't always have the juice to do these things over and over.

I'd agree with you if not for how you said that Pyrotechnics+Dragon's Breath replaced Fog Cloud and the previous tactic, which you kinda sold as the bread-and-butter of this build's efficiency. So at least to me the message read more as "forget about Fog Cloud, Pyrotechnics is your go-to now".

I don't expect the Bladesinger to challenge other wizard subdomains... I rated it poor for a reason.

The Bladesinger can certainly challenge other wizards. Just not like that.

But I like it thematically, and try to build that way. Being invincible is itself a theme, and I already did that, so with this build I'm trying to make a Bladesinger who WANTS to fight, who enjoys it. So no xbows or fighting from the back, even if that makes more sense if pursuing the Invincible Theme.

Well for what it's worth thematically it gave me less the impression of someone who want to fight and more, for example, a mid-game Metal Gear boss where the gimmick is to stumble in the smoke-filled boss arena and to beat up the various minions hidden there, while the boss takes cheap shots and talk a big game, but when cornered it turns out the boss's HP bar is smaller than the one of the game's first boss.

[Corran]

(A) Hmmm, you're right. I was cognizant of the "it can’t target anyone within it" restriction, but I overlooked "can't cross the circle or harm it". The other remaining sticky point is whether you can choose to make the demon appear within the circle, but thematically it seems reasonable. "Ask your DM" indeed but it seems like this ought to work--but you still need someone else to concentrate on Summon Greater Demon for an hour, or the demon will vanish long before you can finish Planar Binding. Unlike Conjure Elemental, Summon Greater Demon does not produce creatures which stick around for a full hour after you lose concentration. Rules reminder: casting a spell that takes more than 1 action to cast, like Planar Binding, requires your concentration for the full casting time.

Yeah, I am thinking it should work too. I agree that it's thematically reasonable, because I can totally imagine a demon who understands what's happening to be willing to inflict harm to itself in order to escape being bound (too chaotic and impulsive).

I was thinking glyph of warding for the summoning part (generally, and not specifically for Bilbron's build, which may or may not find it), but I now see that (at least technically) you cannot use the blood circle this way, cause RAW it needs to be used as part of casting the spell. So it will probably have to be through another pc or a simulacrum. Edit: Nope, we are still casting SGD as part of creating the glyph, so there is reason to think that the blood circle can be involved.

(B) I see this kind of comment a lot and it makes me wonder how other DMs structure their games. In my games, enemies are actually more likely to be spread out initially doing other things, not bunched up. When they become aware of PCs, they may come running in from other rooms or burrowing up through the floor. In my games, ideally you'd want to Fireball/AoE only AFTER the melee monsters have started ganging up on PCs, if they do.

Bold: Oh, I've noticed that too, even if dealing with spread out enemies is not as common or to such a high degree as it probably is in your games.

I'd say it's mostly because of map/tile restrictions. We are working with limited space (table usually has lots of things on it during play), and although many times a pc will go outside of the available map (in which case we just note somewhere the distance from the edge of the map), the DM doesn't end up doing the same with the monsters at the start of combat, mostly for convenience. That and using a conveniently small scale in dungeons (though dungeons in modules suffer a bit from that too from what I've seen). If you randomly asked me what I think about a 20 foot radius, I'd instinctively say that it's big enough for spells like fireball and hypnotic pattern. Heck, I wouldn't really think much of starting combat from long distances (or for trying to exploit improved range for vision) if it wasn't for a previous game in roll20. It's an opinion shaped by this specific kind of experience, and I'd guess it's a pretty common experience.

E.g. there might be three Star Spawn Grues down that hallway a short ways, gyrating insanely, and a Star Spawn Hulk and two more Grues sniffing fungoids in the fungus room you're standing next to, and a Mangler about to turn the corner and notice you and give the shrieking alarm. If you win initiative and Fireball the Mangler immediately you'll hit fewer targets than if you summon a meatshield for the Mangler to mangle and then Fireball on round 2 after the Grues and Hulk show up, gibbering as they do.

That too. Only had one DM who ever did combat like that (and that was during 4e), and I dont usually do it myself (which makes me think I should try it, cause I like the idea).

[Gtdead]

Shapechange ("can now solo any monster") (at ~26:08):

It's a Concentration spell that requires an action to cast. Try to solo a monster with a decent Multiattack like that and you'll be lucky to get more than two rounds out of your 9th level spell.

I'm responding to this because Bilbron probably got the inpsiration from something I wrote in his other bladesinger video.

Almost every good form (Dragons, Balor, Pitfiend, Marilith) have more than 20 CON and some of them have resistances. A Marilith for example, not only deals absolutely ridiculous damage, stacked with song of victory, but besides having 6 resistances and 1 immunity, makes your CON saves +16. So you need an enemy that either ignores resistance and is capable of dealing more than 34 damage per hit, or something that is capable of dealing 68 damage per hit just to have a chance. Not many of them exist.

And if you can secure defensive advantage somehow, the enemy will need a miracle to break your concentration. Good luck breaking the concentration of something that has so many resistances, song of defense/absorb and shield on standby and 23 AC. You can safely spam shield for 28 AC and Marilith can use a reaction in every turn, not once per round.

[MaxWilson]

Don't need to provide a graph, but given how creatures with +2 to hit are generally non-threats like Commoners, it's not really relevant to mention this particular mod and only result in giving the watcher a false impression of how effective the AC is.

To be completely fair though, if he were using Mage Armor (AC 16, 19 with Bladesong, 24 with Shield) against enemies with +4 to hit (like Goblins), they still would only penetrate the Shield on a crit. The example might be flawed simply because Bilbron is deliberately unfamiliar with MM monster stats (to preserve the feeling of discovery), but the essence of the point if sound: disadvantage is very powerful if you have high AC already.

I'd agree with you if not for how you said that Pyrotechnics+Dragon's Breath replaced Fog Cloud and the previous tactic, which you kinda sold as the bread-and-butter of this build's efficiency. So at least to me the message read more as "forget about Fog Cloud, Pyrotechnics is your go-to now".

Yeah, me too. Turns out the actual hope is for Eversmoking bottle so you can get some mobility. Darkness would work too, but you don't have it. I feel this is an important caveat. Fortunately, Babaus can cast Darkness at will and you are planning to learn Summon Greater Demon and Planar Binding, so the problem eventually solves itself--in the meantime I suspect the PC will just be more fragile than anticipated.

BTW, I think if it were me I'd probably go for Fighting Style: Blindsight instead of Alert, and take a level of Artificer instead of Magic Initiate: Artificer. In half-plate armor and shield that would give me AC 19 all the time (24 when Shielding). I'd also pick up Sanctuary, a nice non-concentration defense spell as a bonus action for when I don't need Magic Stone, and flexible access to spells like Cure Wounds, Disguise Self, Faerie Fire, and Longstrider, plus three "free" rituals for my wizard spell book. (Not free in gp of course, still have to pay to scribe them.) It might feel a little bit like playing an AD&D fighter/mage/cleric.

I'd be getting nothing out of Bladesinging except Extra Attack with cantrip support, but I'd no longer be squishy on round 1, and it would no longer be as vital to win initiative, while at the same time I'd be getting much more benefit out of heavy obscurement (ability to cast spells even within the cloud because I can "see" everyone, advantage on attacks, still get to make opportunity attacks if I want to). I'd acquire higher-level spells slightly slower than a pure Bladesinger but essentially freeing up one and a half feats is worth it, at least to me. It just means that when e.g. a new spell like Wall of Force does come online I have the juice to cast the spell twice before resting, instead of only one. This way I can also afford to boost my Int at level 9 instead of waiting for level 12.

And you can always take your armor off and do Bladesinging when you know you're not going to get ambushed at close range. By level 9 your Bladesinging AC with Mage Armor (or Studded Leather +1) will be 20, which is better than your armored AC anyway, and by level 11-15 your other Bladesinging abilities will be coming online and Bladesinging will be more interesting in certain fights.

How is this build different from Artificer 1/any-other-wizard-subclass X? Mostly just that (1) you get Extra Attack to go with your cantips, which could be especially interesting with nets or poisoned weapons, (2) you get some modest bonuses to high-level Shapeshifting, and (3) your eventual AC is more on par with a Fighter's AC than an Artificer's AC, and you have some ability to negate crits via Song of Defense. In most ways I'd rather play an Artificer 1/War Wizard X for pretty much the same effect, but Bladesingers do have some nifty options for grappling/proning, especially if you take Skilled (Athletics) at some point.

I've always felt that Bladesingers are a waste unless you have a good way to make use of Extra Attack, such as with two levels of Rogue. IMO the 5E equivalent of fighter/mage/thief is Rogue 2/Bladesinger X.

[Unoriginal]

To be completely fair though, if he were using Mage Armor (AC 16, 19 with Bladesong, 24 with Shield) against enemies with +4 to hit (like Goblins), they still would only penetrate the Shield on a crit. The example might be flawed simply because Bilbron is deliberately unfamiliar with MM monster stats (to preserve the feeling of discovery), but the essence of the point if sound: disadvantage is very powerful if you have high AC already.

Fair, but given Bilbron made a point to note Mage Armor was not worth it for this build, I still feel like it should be clarified that the character is still much more hitable than what saying "if the enemies has +2 to hit only a crit can touch you" implies.

Yeah, me too. Turns out the actual hope is for Eversmoking bottle so you can get some mobility. Darkness would work too, but you don't have it. I feel this is an important caveat. Fortunately, Babaus can cast Darkness at will and you are planning to learn Summon Greater Demon and Planar Binding, so the problem eventually solves itself--in the meantime I suspect the PC will just be more fragile than anticipated.

Babaus can be pretty nice to have in the team, IIRC. Still "more fragile than anticipated" is quite a big deal for a build the video incentivize to go in melee.

BTW, I think if it were me I'd probably go for Fighting Style: Blindsight instead of Alert

I thought about the same, but that does make the PC considerably slower initiative-wise..

I'd be getting nothing out of Bladesinging except Extra Attack with cantrip support, but I'd no longer be squishy on round 1, and it would no longer be as vital to win initiative, while at the same time I'd be getting much more benefit out of heavy obscurement

Fair.

And you can always take your armor off and do Bladesinging when you know you're not going to get ambushed at close range. By level 9 your Bladesinging AC with Mage Armor (or Studded Leather +1) will be 20, which is better than your armored AC anyway, and by level 11-15 your other Bladesinging abilities will be coming online and Bladesinging will be more interesting in certain fights.

How is this build different from Artificer 1/any-other-wizard-subclass X? Mostly just that (1) you get Extra Attack to go with your cantips, which could be especially interesting with nets or poisoned weapons, (2) you get some modest bonuses to high-level Shapeshifting, and (3) your eventual AC is more on par with a Fighter's AC than an Artificer's AC, and you have some ability to negate crits via Song of Defense. In most ways I'd rather play an Artificer 1/War Wizard X for pretty much the same effect, but Bladesingers do have some nifty options for grappling/proning, especially if you take Skilled (Athletics) at some point.

I've always felt that Bladesingers are a waste unless you have a good way to make use of Extra Attack, such as with two levels of Rogue. IMO the 5E equivalent of fighter/mage/thief is Rogue 2/Bladesinger X.

Would Artificier 3 (Battlesmith)/Bladesinger X be worthwhile, in your opinion?

I think it's expensive but on the other hand it helps with the stat issue.

[MaxWilson]

Fair, but given Bilbron made a point to note Mage Armor was not worth it for this build, I still feel like it should be clarified that the character is still much more hitable than what saying "if the enemies has +2 to hit only a crit can touch you" implies.

...

Would Artificier 3 (Battlesmith)/Bladesinger X be worthwhile, in your opinion?

I think it's expensive but on the other hand it helps with the stat issue.

I think the bigger AC issue is that you're burning Shields instead of HP. That isn't sustainable, especially when you're already burning slots on Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics. IMO it makes more sense in this case to talk about your un-Shielded AC, and then treat your Shields as effectively a source of extra HP, but only against deadly threats. If you wind up burning a 2nd level slot and two 1st level slots against a mere ten goblins, are you really better off than if you'd just cast a Sleep spell right off the bat?

I don't feel that a three-level dip in Battlesmith is worthwhile, no. Infusions are okay, but attacking with Int is not even a boost until you boost Int past 16. You lose spell slots and delay access to important spells for too long. There's not really any stat issue as far as I'm concerned. Dex 14 or 16 is a perfectly adequate Booming Blade attack stat. Frankly if Tasha's is in play I'd be more likely to go Peace 1 or Twilight 2 than Battlesmith 3. (But I don't actually play with Tasha's rules, except for a Ki-Fueled Strikes for monks and sorcerer domain spells for all sorcs.)

[Unoriginal]

I think the bigger AC issue is that you're burning Shields instead of HP. That isn't sustainable, especially when you're already burning slots on Fog Cloud/Pyrotechnics. IMO it makes more sense in this case to talk about your un-Shielded AC, and then treat your Shields as effectively a source of extra HP, but only against deadly threats. If you wind up burning a 2nd level slot and two 1st level slots against a mere ten goblins, are you really better off than if you'd just cast a Sleep spell right off the bat?

I agree. This build bleeds spell slots faster than it bleeds HPs, and it bleeds HPs pretty fast.

I don't feel that a three-level dip in Battlesmith is worthwhile, no. Infusions are okay, but attacking with Int is not even a boost until you boost Int past 16. You lose spell slots and delay access to important spells for too long.

Yeah, I had more or less the same feeling, but I thought maybe there was something I was not seeing

There's not really any stat issue as far as I'm concerned. Dex 14 or 16 is a perfectly adequate Booming Blade attack stat.

Fair, but it's really not great for the Extra Attack, which is one of the reasons for Bladesinger.

[Bilbron]

I agree. This build bleeds spell slots faster than it bleeds HPs, and it bleeds HPs pretty fast.

In fairness, part of the build is the familiar feeding me Potions of Healing every round. To counter my own point, that might be prohibitively expensive, unless the party has a Life Cleric with Goodberry. But the general thought is that I could leverage the familiar to help make up for the lack of HP and the hits that get through (likely when I fight without obscurement).

In regards to dipping and armor, I kind of feel like armor defeats the point of Bladesinger... just pick a different subdomain. At a minimum I want a guy who WANTS to fight... I feel like those who prefer fighting from the back would gravitate to other subdomains. And I wanted to keep it straight wizard here to take advantage of the fact that it can do without a dip better than any other subdomain. I may do a followup about dips, though.

I grant that the obscurement is borderline thematically, but I went through a few iterations trying to leverage other mechanics, and they mostly involved die rolling (or too difficult to reliably release from concentration like with Pyrotechnics at least) and I couldn't bring myself to abandon the automatic application of obscurement + the free disengages it offers for BB.

Final comment - my one campaign has been pretty stingy with loot but apparently way looser with magic items. In big cities, I send word ahead with my criminal network to procure certain items and sometimes they manage to get it done. So I'm surprised that the likes of +1 Studded or the uncommon Eversmoking Bottle seem difficult to acquire.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Outside of a weasel familiar, most of the base familiars lack the anatomy to open a stoppered flask.

I'm sure some DMs never attack familiars. In play, I think most DMs reach a tipping point when the Familiar has done enough crucial actions that it registers as a foe.

A black widow spider that shoots Lightning like Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars, (via a Dragon's Breath spell), seems like an exigent threat to most creatures.

A 1 HP "Rescue Owl" dropping Goodberries into your mouth, doesn't strike me as the most robust insurance policy.

Since Familiars are not beasts, ethical considerations of animal cruelty don't apply, DMs should kill away. 🃏🖖

[Bilbron]

Outside of a weasel familiar, most of the base familiars lack the anatomy to open a stoppered flask.

I'm sure some DMs never attack familiars. In play, I think most DMs reach a tipping point when the Familiar has done enough crucial actions that it registers as a foe.

A black widow spider that shoots Lightning like Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars, (via a Dragon's Breath spell), seems like an exigent threat to most creatures.

A 1 HP "Rescue Owl" dropping Goodberries into your mouth, doesn't strike me as the most robust insurance policy.

Since Familiars are not beasts, ethical considerations of animal cruelty don't apply, DMs should kill away. 🃏🖖

Never understood why an owl can grab a branch or a mouse but not a stopper. Even untrained birds build nests, and trained birds can do amazing things.

Obviously YMMV in regards to the DM, of course.

[MaxWilson]

In fairness, part of the build is the familiar feeding me Potions of Healing every round. To counter my own point, that might be prohibitively expensive, unless the party has a Life Cleric with Goodberry. But the general thought is that I could leverage the familiar to help make up for the lack of HP and the hits that get through (likely when I fight without obscurement).

Potions of healing: expensive.

Owls with super-Goodberry: relies three times over on favorable DM ruling: letting you consume Goodberries with someone else's action instead of your own (technically illegal), letting your handless familiar be the one who gives them to you, and letting Disciple of Life work with Goodberry despite the fact that the spell isn't actually the thing that's healing you.

Moreover, if your plan is to just consume Goodberries constantly, why do you even need Alert? You've already got AC 15ish all the time, there's not THAT much difference between 15 and 18. IMO you should take Fighting Style: Blindsight instead to capitalize on the constant heavy obscurement you plan on bringing to bear, and eliminate that whole "can't cast most spells in heavy obscurement" issue.

If you're not willing to wear armor at all then I can see why you'd prefer to do Artificer Initiate instead of dipping Artificer.

Never understood why an owl can grab a branch or a mouse but not a stopper. Even untrained birds build nests, and trained birds can do amazing things.

Obviously YMMV in regards to the DM, of course.

I never thought about it before, but I'm assuming the anatomical issue ThunderousMojo is pointing out is less about grabbing the stopper and more about pulling the stopper out of the bottle. Counterpoint: there's no reason you have to keep healing potions in stoppered bottles as opposed to, say, leather flasks that can be punctured by a beak. Counter-counterpoint: how clever do you really expect an Int 2 owl to be with its talons and beak? Do you really think it can puncture a leather flask and launch it into your mouth while you're busy fighting?

As a DM I'm inclined to cut players some slack so I might allow it anyway if the majority of the players at the table thought it was plausible, but I'd be casting my own personal vote against it. It just doesn't seem believable to me. It would be difficult enough for one human to administer a potion to another human in motion; having a handless bird do it seems implausible.