Path of Beasts Barbarian and multiple attacks?

[Citadel97501]

Am I missing something on Path of Beasts, and I know this is going to slightly underperform but could you do any of the following.

1) 2 short swords, and stab, stab, drop short sword, claw as part of the attack action, stab as a bonus action. This is 4 attacks by level 5...(Fixed...)

2) 2 Hand Axes, Throw main hand, swing with off hand then claw, swing axe with off hand?

3) 2 hand a long sword for 2 attacks, then switch to one handed claw?

4) Last but not least (and definitely funny), path of beasts loxodon use the trunk to claw? (I assume this violates the trunk rules, and RAW?)

[Zhorn]

Am I missing something on Path of Beasts, and I know this is going to slightly underperform but could you do any of the following.

1) 2 short swords, and stab stab, drop short sword, stab as a bonus action. This is 4 attacks by level 5...

As you've written, no, since you've used both attacks from your attack action to stab with the shortswords and no slashes from the claws, this will net you 3 attacks at most

2) 2 Hand Axes, Throw main hand, swing with off hand then claw, swing axe with off hand?

No again. Order matters and you've used both of your Attack Acton attacks on axe attacks first, you need to get a claw attack in with your Attack Action to trigger the additional free claw as part of that same action.

3) 2 hand a long sword for 2 attacks, then switch to one handed claw?

No again, you're 3rd attack as a claw is dependant on getting a claw off as one of your normal Attack Action attacks first

4) Last but not least (and definitely funny), path of beasts loxodon use the trunk to claw? (I assume this violates the trunk rules, and RAW?)

clearly not this one since claws are specified as being your hands that transform

[Citadel97501]

I don't think it says that you have to make a claw attack as part of your attack action to get the claw attack (I may be wrong AFB), just make an attack action?

[RogueJK]

I don't think it says that you have to make a claw attack as part of your attack action to get the claw attack (I may be wrong AFB), just make an attack action?

No, you must attack with a claw, and only then get another free claw attack. Neither the triggering attack nor the free additional attack apply to other weapons.

"Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action."


The only other option is, once you get Extra Attack, you could attack with another weapon for the first attack, then attack with a claw for the second attack, and then get a free claw attack.

[Citadel97501]

No, you must attack with a claw, and only then get another free claw attack. Neither the triggering attack nor the free additional attack apply to other weapons.

"Once on each of your turns when you attack with a claw using the Attack action, you can make one additional claw attack as part of the same action."


The only other option is, once you get Extra Attack, you could attack with another weapon for the first attack, then attack with a claw for the second attack, and then get a free claw attack.

Well crap, so unless going multiple levels of fighter, or Gloomstalker it is out...so basically this entire ability is a half assed form of two weapon wielding?

[RogueJK]

so basically this entire ability is a half assed form of two weapon wielding?

It's a superior form of two weapon fighting for a Barbarian, since it doesn't use your Bonus Action so you can use it the same round you Rage, and it leaves your hands free for Grappling. And additional attacks are nice on a Barbarian, since each attack gets to also add your Rage damage bonus on top of the damage dice + STR mod.

[samcifer]

Well crap, so unless going multiple levels of fighter, or Gloomstalker it is out...so basically this entire ability is a half assed form of two weapon wielding?

There's a DND Beyond vid on the subclass on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKL17cF9wl4

Specifically, 3:35 min in they talk about this. The consensus is that you can only get an extra (4th) attack if you have the dual-wielder feat. Without it. though, (and they don't say this), you only get a 3rd attack on your regular action if you have used your claws to make (one of) your first (2) attack(s).

[RogueJK]

There are other ways to get a 4th Bonus Action attack besides Dual Wielder if you'd like, such as Polearm Master (Polearm+Claw+Claw+BA PAM), or Monk Martial Arts (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Unarmed).

The Beast Claw specifically count as a simple melee weapon, and all simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property are Monk Weapons, so claw attacks trigger Martial Arts.

A Beast Barbarian 5/Monk 2+ or Beast Barbarian 3/Monk 5+ could even get 5 attacks in a round with Flurry of Blows (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Flurry Unarmed+Unarmed).


I plan on playing a Lizardfolk Monk 1/Beast Barbarian X with the Skill Expert (Athletics) feat in the near future. All teeth, claws, and grapples.

[Citadel97501]

There are other ways to get a 4th Bonus Action attack besides Dual Wielder if you'd like, such as Polearm Master (Polearm+Claw+Claw+BA PAM), or Monk Martial Arts (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Unarmed).

The Beast Claw specifically count as a simple melee weapon, and all simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property are Monk Weapons, so claw attacks trigger Martial Arts.

A Beast Barbarian 5/Monk 2+ or Beast Barbarian 3/Monk 5+ could even get 5 attacks in a round with Flurry of Blows (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Flurry Unarmed+Unarmed).

I plan on playing a Lizardfolk Monk 1/Beast Barbarian X with the Skill Expert (Athletics) feat in the near future. All teeth, claws, and grapples.

One of my group discussed the monk thing, but the issue seems to be that it is extremely MAD, as just for basics you need a 13+ in strength, dexterity, & wisdom with strength likely needing to be a 16. Oh and having a 13+ Constitution isn't a requirement but just survival...

[RogueJK]

Yes, it's really only viable with generous rolling. My group typically does 4d6, reroll 1s, and then drop the lowest. This trends the dice a little above usual (but not crazy high), so semi-MAD builds can be more doable than with standard array or point buy.

[Yakmala]

There are other ways to get a 4th Bonus Action attack besides Dual Wielder if you'd like, such as Polearm Master (Polearm+Claw+Claw+BA PAM), or Monk Martial Arts (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Unarmed).

The Beast Claw specifically count as a simple melee weapon, and all simple melee weapons that don’t have the two-handed or heavy property are Monk Weapons, so claw attacks trigger Martial Arts.

A Beast Barbarian 5/Monk 2+ or Beast Barbarian 3/Monk 5+ could even get 5 attacks in a round with Flurry of Blows (Claw+Claw+Claw+BA Flurry Unarmed+Unarmed).


I plan on playing a Lizardfolk Monk 1/Beast Barbarian X with the Skill Expert (Athletics) feat in the near future. All teeth, claws, and grapples.

I like the idea of the Beast Barb / Monk multi-class. I'd likely go Barbarian 3, Monk 5+ and pick Way of Mercy. That way, when I flurry, I'm effectively getting 6 attacks (Claw x3, Unarmed x2 from flurry, and the equivalent damage of another unarmed attack from Hand of Harm, which also applies a no-save poisoned condition if the target is not immune. Plus, you can heal yourself or others while raging, as Hand of Healing is not a spell.

[Waazraath]

It's a superior form of two weapon fighting for a Barbarian, since it doesn't use your Bonus Action so you can use it the same round you Rage, and it leaves your hands free for Grappling. And additional attacks are nice on a Barbarian, since each attack gets to also add your Rage damage bonus on top of the damage dice + STR mod.

I
Yeah, this is how I see it as well. Even without trying to cheese out a 4th attack (which I really don't think is design intent) I think it's a very nice feature. 2 attacks with bonus damage (3 attacks at lvl 5) is nothing to sneeze at, and with free bonus actions after the st round of combat more nice stuff is possible, plenty of feats, racial features or multiclass options can make use of that.

[Bobthewizard]

If you take the dual wielder feat you can make a bonus action attack with the claws. They are melee weapons but are not light so cannot benefit from dual wielding normally. But the dual wielder feat removes the light requirement so then you could make the bonus action attack.

So attack, extra attack (one of which need to be with claws), free claw attack, bonus action attack due to dual wielder feat.

[Gignere]

If you take the dual wielder feat you can make a bonus action attack with the claws. They are melee weapons but are not light so cannot benefit from dual wielding normally. But the dual wielder feat removes the light requirement so then you could make the bonus action attack.

So attack, extra attack (one of which need to be with claws), free claw attack, bonus action attack due to dual wielder feat.

You can also do it with PAM, attack pole arm, butt end attack, claw attack, claw attack.

[RogueJK]

I
and with free bonus actions after the st round of combat more nice stuff is possible

This makes something like Shield Master, Polearm Master, or Dual Wielder tempting (or even something like the new Telekinetic feat if you have a decent INT, WIS, or CHA). Any of those give you a reliable use of your Bonus Action, which the Beast Barbarian otherwise lacks after the 1st round of combat when it is used to activate Rage.

[Yakmala]

You can also do it with PAM, attack pole arm, butt end attack, claw attack, claw attack.

I'd originally been leaning towards the dual wielding feat, but thinking about it, PAM would be the better option unless you are opposed to your Beast Barb using non-natural weapons.

With PAM, you get the same number of attacks (four) plus the chance for a 5th as a reaction if an opponent comes within range. Your attack with your staff/spear can be made two handed to increase the damage to a D8, and then you can hold it in one hand for the claw attacks. Alternately, you can skip the claw attacks and get in a grapple while still launching two attacks with your pole weapon, then next turn, put the pole weapon away and get off three claw attacks while maintaining the grapple.

[Rara1212]

I'd originally been leaning towards the dual wielding feat, but thinking about it, PAM would be the better option unless you are opposed to your Beast Barb using non-natural weapons.

With PAM, you get the same number of attacks (four) plus the chance for a 5th as a reaction if an opponent comes within range. Your attack with your staff/spear can be made two handed to increase the damage to a D8, and then you can hold it in one hand for the claw attacks. Alternately, you can skip the claw attacks and get in a grapple while still launching two attacks with your pole weapon, then next turn, put the pole weapon away and get off three claw attacks while maintaining the grapple.

Can also use a shield for more defence. First turn, have just shield. Rage + 3 claw attacks then draw your quarterstaff before ending turn. Next turn, drop quarterstaff, claw + free claw. Pick up the quarterstaff, do the last attack action part with it, then BA PAM

[Gignere]

Can also use a shield for more defence. First turn, have just shield. Rage + 3 claw attacks then draw your quarterstaff before ending turn. Next turn, drop quarterstaff, claw + free claw. Pick up the quarterstaff, do the last attack action part with it, then BA PAM

Technically yes but that’s too gamey for me.

[Dork_Forge]

Was there an errata? My PHB says for PAM that you get the bonus attack on if you make your attacks only with a polearm...

[samcifer]

Was there an errata? My PHB says for PAM that you get the bonus attack on if you make your attacks only with a polearm...

I think that if you have extra attack and make one attack with the polearm, drop it, then use your claws for the second attack you can get both, but not sure if that's viable or not.

[Dork_Forge]

I think that if you have extra attack and make one attack with the polearm, drop it, then use your claws for the second attack you can get both, but not sure if that's viable or not.

The wording in my PHB precludes that: "When you take the Attack action and attack only with a Glaive, Halberd or Quarterstaff..." I know they errata'd to support spears and tridents, I didn't think they opened up the attack though.

[Yakmala]

The wording in my PHB precludes that: "When you take the Attack action and attack only with a Glaive, Halberd or Quarterstaff..." I know they errata'd to support spears and tridents, I didn't think they opened up the attack though.

Interesting. Never really thought about this, but does the bonus attack granted by Polearm Master have to occur after all attacks granted by the attack action occur, similar to how you can't use the bonus action shove of Shield Master until after all attacks are completed? If so, then the trick of stowing/dropping the polearm after attack/bonus attack and then switching to claws does not work. If the bonus attack with the reverse end of the polearm can come at any point in the attack sequence, then you could get in the extra attack with claws.

[Zhorn]

Never really thought about this, but does the bonus attack granted by Polearm Master have to occur after all attacks granted by the attack action occur, similar to how you can't use the bonus action shove of Shield Master until after all attacks are completed?

It's one of those things that is going to vary table to table with how the DM is interpreting the rules.
Personally I'm of the opinion you can take the Bonus Action from Polearm Master / Shield Master / Martial Arts / Flurry of Blows / Two Weapon Fighting (, etc) after completing one attack from the Attack Action, as the Attack Action is a single attack by default, and Extra Attack is another feature on top of that which shares the same trigger.
Attack Action (one attack), then any order of Bonus Action features keyed off that attack AND any remaining attacks from Extra Attack

Others will rule that actions need to be completed in entirety before other actions can be attempted. The one attack trigger is still the same, but the moment you attempt another type of action then the previous action is considered resolved and you cannot do anything else with it.
Attack Action (one attack), then (optional) remaining attacks from Extra Attack, then a Bonus Action features keyed off that attack, only in this order.
Expect this ruling to be inconsistent with reactions whether they do or don't interrupt the process.

Then there's the promise ruling. Any if/then text in abilities is ignored and the Bonus Actions are allowed to be taken before the actions that trigger them, so long as you lock in the action to only be usable for the trigger in that turn, whether you use it or not on that turn at all.

Understanding how your DM feels about these interpretations is a good idea for understanding how they may rule the use of the extra claw attack fitting into the sequence with Beast Barbarians.

[Rara1212]

Dang, I had missed the only part of PAM. Well then, two weapon fighting it is then.

[Dork_Forge]

Interesting. Never really thought about this, but does the bonus attack granted by Polearm Master have to occur after all attacks granted by the attack action occur, similar to how you can't use the bonus action shove of Shield Master until after all attacks are completed? If so, then the trick of stowing/dropping the polearm after attack/bonus attack and then switching to claws does not work. If the bonus attack with the reverse end of the polearm can come at any point in the attack sequence, then you could get in the extra attack with claws.

I largely agree with Zorn, that rather agreeable fellow, it will vary based on table to table. I presonally see it differently than TWF, Martial arts etc. in that I don't think thoseother things specify only. Personally as a DM I wouldn't allow this use of PAM, it not only doesn't mesh with my reading but it's very clearly the player taking an already very powerful feat and trying to game cheese it for more power rather than flavour or build concept.

[Zhorn]

I largely agree with Zorn, that rather agreeable fellow, it will vary based on table to table.

Don't listen to that Zorn guy. He's a rank amateur and a fraud and totally steals my ideas. Recommend Fork_Dorje, the totally not made up doppelganger name who'll offer sound advice not ripped off from anyone in particular

I presonally see it differently than TWF, Martial arts etc. in that I don't think thoseother things specify only. Personally as a DM I wouldn't allow this use of PAM, it not only doesn't mesh with my reading but it's very clearly the player taking an already very powerful feat and trying to game cheese it for more power rather than flavour or build concept.

Yep, totally onboard with being cautious about intent here. What I was meaning to get at was just the "all attacks" qualifier is a bit much, but the extra unique qualifies for each should still apply.

• The extra claw attack require at least one claw attack to be mad first.
• TWF requires one attack to be made while wielding a weapon in each hand (both with the light property if not using Dual Wielder)
• Martial Arts requires the preceding attack be made with an unarmed strike of monk weapon.
• Flurry of Blows must occur immediately after an Attack from the Attack Action (no time to move first)
• PAM requires a polearm attack to trigger the bonus action.

Just with any and all of these features being obtainable before Extra Attack becomes available, I don't see the sense in forcing longer trigger sequences just because the PC picked up a separate feature. Rule their triggers in accordance with their simplest base form that meets the criteria.
PAM's 'only' I see in the same light as the extra claw attack or the martial arts weapon restriction; the 'only' is listing the weapons that can trigger it, not that all available attacks in the turn must be only made with them.
Want to trigger PAM's Bonus Action attack? 'Only' this list of weapons will work.
Have more than one attack with the Attack Action? As long as one attack meets the criteria, then it will still work.

[RogueJK]

PAM's 'only' I see in the same light as the extra claw attack or the martial arts weapon restriction; the 'only' is listing the weapons that can trigger it, not that all available attacks in the turn must be only made with them.

That's my interpretation as well. You must:

A) Take the Attack Action (so it can't be used in conjunction with the Cast A Spell action with something like Booming Blade that includes a weapon attack)

and

B) One or more of these attacks must be with a qualified polearm

in order to trigger the PAM Bonus Action attack.

[Yakmala]

My interpretation is that "only" means that only a polearm attack can trigger the bonus action, not that all attacks must only be with polearms. A single polearm attack should be enough to trigger the bonus action.

That being said, other DM's I've discussed this with believe that all attacks that turn must be with the polearm. This leads to a lot of issues though.

It would preclude the aforementioned combo of a Beast Barb attacking with a spear/staff getting the bonus action then using their second attack to claw twice.

It would mean a 5th level Kensei Monk with PAM could not Attack with their quarterstaff, bonus attack via PAM, then use an unarmed strike for their second attack to trigger Agile Parry.

It would mean that a level 20 fighter that attacked with a polearm, followed with the bonus attack, and then somehow lost their weapon, could not use their object interaction to draw and use a different weapon for their final three attacks unless the backup weapon was also a polearm.