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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    BlackDragon

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    Default Darth Vader has left us

    David Prowse, most famous as the guy inside the Darth Vader costume, has died:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55117704

    I always thought the way he could somehow be menacing through pure physical action was amazing.

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    And he never did get paid for it, either. Very sad.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    And he never did get paid for it, either. Very sad.
    Wait, what?
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    As a british kid of the 70's I'll always think of him first as the 'Green Cross ' man

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_...reen_Cross_Man
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Thread name is kinda clickbaity, no?

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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by Precure View Post
    Thread name is kinda clickbaity, no?
    I guess you could say that. When I saw it, I knew it was a death thread, but I wasn't sure if it was Prowse or James Earl Jones. Well, it could have been Hayden Christiansen, but I don't think of him when I think of Vader, and Sebastian Shaw has been gone for a long time now.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wait, what?
    Im given to understand that most of the people who did Vader who werent JEJ were victims of Hollywood accounting.
    “Evil is evil. Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I'm not a pious hermit, I haven't done only good in my life. But if I'm to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Wait, what?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Im given to understand that most of the people who did Vader who werent JEJ were victims of Hollywood accounting.
    Yeah. Prowse was to be paid in a percentage of net profit, but thanks to Hollywood accounting the original trilogy has technically never made a profit to this day.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    Im given to understand that most of the people who did Vader who werent JEJ were victims of Hollywood accounting.
    Well, there were several, and only Prowse fell to that (and then only in Return of the Jedi - he was paid for Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back). Though that's still terrible.

    James Earl Jones famously did the voice, but there was also a stunt-Vader, Bob Anderson (Anderson was a swordmaster - IIRC he was an Olympic fencer (bonus fact - so is Bruce Dickinson, lead singer of Iron Maiden!) and did a lot of swordfighting choreography in films) played Darth Vader in the swordfight scenes in ESB and RotJ, though I don't believe he was involved in Star Wars. Could be mistaken on that. Sebastian Shaw was then the face of Vader in RotJ when Luke unmasked him, and the Force Ghost of Anakin Skywalker in the pre-special edition version. And this was just the original trilogy.

    But yes, Prowse got hosed hard well before that - he was offered either Chewbacca or Darth Vader and chose Vader due to the fact that villains are more memorable. Only later did he find out Vader was masked and his face wouldn't be seen (this was also the case for Chewbacca, but he wasn't informed before he made his choice, so his reasoning may have been different had he known). Then he was unaware that he wouldn't even be the voice of Darth Vader until he saw the premier, which is just ridiculous. He was excited about the unmasking in RotJ, until he discovered that they just went ahead and hired someone else for that. And once he started complaining about being shafted out of his rightful pay for RotJ, Lucas banned him from conventions and all other large gatherings with an official Star Wars presence, which, in addition to alienating him from the series as much as legally possible, also served to even further ensure that Prowse could not have monetary avenues available to him through those conventions.

    A lot of people, myself included, hoped that Disney would reverse this insane ban, but for whatever reason I don't believe they ever did.

    Farewell, Mr. Prowse. May the Force be with you.
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Yeah. Prowse was to be paid in a percentage of net profit, but thanks to Hollywood accounting the original trilogy has technically never made a profit to this day.
    Well, okay, that's a bit misleading. For one thing, the only place I'm aware of that being mentioned was in regards to Return of the Jedi, where his salary was to include net profits for that film as residuals (source), not that the residuals were his entire promised salary or that he never got a dime for playing Vader, which almost certainly isn't true.

    Still, sad to see him passing, 2020 is claiming it's last few victims.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    And once he started complaining about being shafted out of his rightful pay for RotJ, Lucas banned him from conventions and all other large gatherings with an official Star Wars presence, which, in addition to alienating him from the series as much as legally possible, also served to even further ensure that Prowse could not have monetary avenues available to him through those conventions.
    Ok, that's also misleading past a certain point. The reason that Prowse was banned was never made openly public, even I believe by Prowse who only stated that he burned too many bridges. Tying it to complaints about not being paid is speculative at best.

    Can we mourn the man without tossing around accusations like that?
    Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2020-11-29 at 10:55 AM.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Yeah. Prowse was to be paid in a percentage of net profit, but thanks to Hollywood accounting the original trilogy has technically never made a profit to this day.
    That doesn't pass the sniff test. Alec Guinness was paid a percentage, and he made out like a bandit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That doesn't pass the sniff test. Alec Guinness was paid a percentage, and he made out like a bandit.
    Without actually seeing the contracts i can only speculate, but my guess is that Guinness was paid a percentage of the gross, not the net. The net profit is the change compared to where you were before you started, and is what hollywood accounting is so infamous for. They are very good at pretending that they lost money on movies because it goes to some subcompany or something who coincidentally pay other people such that they money ends up in the original peoples pockets regardless, or that there are a bunch more expenses than were practically taken from the budget. The gross is the total amount of money people paid for it without looking at the total change, and is significantly harder to obfuscate.
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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    That doesn't pass the sniff test. Alec Guinness was paid a percentage, and he made out like a bandit.
    Flumph corrected me above on that - it was specifically RotJ that Prowse didn't get his residuals for. And as for Guinness, there is one very important difference, which is what everyone above is calling 'Hollywood Accounting' - Sir Guinness negotiated for a percentage of gross, not net.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Yeah. Prowse was to be paid in a percentage of net profit, but thanks to Hollywood accounting the original trilogy has technically never made a profit to this day.
    Ah, another common thing between Star Wars' Original Trilogy and the Lord of the Rings movies.
    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Well, there were several, and only Prowse fell to that (and then only in Return of the Jedi - he was paid for Star Wars and The Empire Strikes Back). Though that's still terrible.

    James Earl Jones famously did the voice, but there was also a stunt-Vader, Bob Anderson (Anderson was a swordmaster - IIRC he was an Olympic fencer (bonus fact - so is Bruce Dickinson, lead singer of Iron Maiden!) and did a lot of swordfighting choreography in films) played Darth Vader in the swordfight scenes in ESB and RotJ, though I don't believe he was involved in Star Wars. Could be mistaken on that. Sebastian Shaw was then the face of Vader in RotJ when Luke unmasked him, and the Force Ghost of Anakin Skywalker in the pre-special edition version. And this was just the original trilogy.

    But yes, Prowse got hosed hard well before that - he was offered either Chewbacca or Darth Vader and chose Vader due to the fact that villains are more memorable. Only later did he find out Vader was masked and his face wouldn't be seen (this was also the case for Chewbacca, but he wasn't informed before he made his choice, so his reasoning may have been different had he known). Then he was unaware that he wouldn't even be the voice of Darth Vader until he saw the premier, which is just ridiculous. He was excited about the unmasking in RotJ, until he discovered that they just went ahead and hired someone else for that.
    Oh that is mean. Why did they even have another actor be Vader's face? I never got that.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Flumph corrected me above on that - it was specifically RotJ that Prowse didn't get his residuals for. And as for Guinness, there is one very important difference, which is what everyone above is calling 'Hollywood Accounting' - Sir Guinness negotiated for a percentage of gross, not net.
    I'll correct myself as well, looking into it the residuals issue was a problem apparently for all three movies, not just RotJ, that was just the incident I was familiar with. It's bad, but I just wanted to point out that it was an issue with residuals not his overall pay, and wanted to make clear that it's not that he wasn't paid at all.

    I also imagine Fox would be a lot more hesitant to screw over Guinness than Prowse in that regard.

    Edit:

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyraltari View Post
    Oh that is mean. Why did they even have another actor be Vader's face? I never got that.
    Lucas' reasons are his own, he did have known frictions with Prowse, and it may have been a personal decision, but it's also important to remember that the scene wasn't just an unmasking, it was an acting scene as well. Anakin had to show remorse and love for his son in the final moments as well, and Prowse, whose background wasn't in acting, may not have been deemed ideal.

    As an aside, Prowse was shown to be Vader unmasked in a different scene, Empire Strikes Back. That's him with prosthetics attached to the back of his head.
    Last edited by Dire_Flumph; 2020-11-29 at 12:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Ok, that's also misleading past a certain point. The reason that Prowse was banned was never made openly public, even I believe by Prowse who only stated that he burned too many bridges. Tying it to complaints about not being paid is speculative at best.
    In what way are his issues over Lucas's mistreatment of him not burning bridges?
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Can we mourn the man without tossing around accusations like that?
    The accusations are entirely against not-Prowse, and paint Prowse in the better light. I am (and, for years, have been) entirely in Prowse's corner in this.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    I also imagine Fox would be a lot more hesitant to screw over Guinness than Prowse in that regard.
    No, they wouldn't. It was differently contracted, gross vs net, full stop. They would not hesitate to screw over anyone who negotiated for net (which, I should point out, is still wrong, and arguably even more wrong).
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Flumph View Post
    Lucas' reasons are his own, he did have known frictions with Prowse, and it may have been a personal decision, but it's also important to remember that the scene wasn't just an unmasking, it was an acting scene as well. Anakin had to show remorse and love for his son in the final moments as well, and Prowse, whose background wasn't in acting, may not have been deemed ideal.
    Prowse had well over 40 acting credits before Star Wars, let alone Return of the Jedi six years later. Further, Prowse was acting throughout the trilogy - discounting body acting (or voice acting, which is another hot-button issue of mine) as "not acting" is a gross disservice to such actors.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-11-29 at 12:57 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicshorse View Post
    As a british kid of the 70's I'll always think of him first as the 'Green Cross ' man

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_...reen_Cross_Man
    Ditto.

    I remember him visiting my school.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    In what way are his issues over Lucas's mistreatment of him not burning bridges?

    The accusations are entirely against not-Prowse, and paint Prowse in the better light. I am (and, for years, have been) entirely in Prowse's corner in this.

    No, they wouldn't. It was differently contracted, gross vs net, full stop. They would not hesitate to screw over anyone who negotiated for net (which, I should point out, is still wrong, and arguably even more wrong).

    Prowse had well over 40 acting credits before Star Wars, let alone Return of the Jedi six years later. Further, Prowse was acting throughout the trilogy - discounting body acting (or voice acting, which is another hot-button issue of mine) as "not acting" is a gross disservice to such actors.
    Ok, first off, I never said withholding residuals over creative accounting wasn't wrong, only correcting the notion that Prowse somehow wasn't paid at all for playing Darth Vader. I have no direct knowledge of his contract regarding residuals, so the final note was speculation as I thought was clear.

    Also, I never said Prowse wasn't an actor, just that it wasn't his background. I also have a lot of respect for the way he composed himself as Vader, the way he projected the character in movement is very much down to him. But I stand by the fact that he is likely not what Lucas was looking for in Anakin's final scene. I mean, just look at the pre-Jones sound footage of Prowse doing line-reads on set (and you can't say he knew he was going to be re-dubbed in those shots as by Prowse's own statements he didn't know that at the time). Even the acting credits you point out were for suit work or smaller character roles. Anakin's final scene is different than his background in acting and I find it reasonable that Lucas would have wanted to go with a different actor. I don't feel that diminishes Prowse's strengths in the role, and I apologize if you took it as a slight against the man.

    Look, I'm really not in the mood for this, I'm not in anyone's corner, I don't entirely agree that Prowse was singled out for unfair treatment by Lucas, but there are differing accounts of how he got on the bad side of a few people involved with Star Wars and I don't really want to dive into hearsay, so I will leave it at this: I feel, as I always have, that Prowse was instrumental in creating one of the all time great movie characters. He always seemed like a great guy, and I had hoped that I'd be able to see him talk at a convention someday, and I'm saddened that will no longer be the case.

    I will leave it there. Rest well David Prowse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Further, Prowse was acting throughout the trilogy - discounting body acting (or voice acting, which is another hot-button issue of mine) as "not acting" is a gross disservice to such actors.
    Something else that Prowse was a bit unhappy about was the famous "Luke, I am your father" scene. The reveal was a big secret, so big that they didn't even tell Prowse about it or what the real dialogue was. He was later quoted as saying that if he had known what the scene really was, he would have played it completely differently. I had actually noticed way back when I first saw the film in the theater that Vader's body language didn't seem to match the dialogue in that scene, but it wasn't until years later that I read what Prowse had said about it and realized why things didn't quite match up.

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    Default RIP David Prowse

    This year. This lousy, no-good year.

    David Prowse was a real character, deeply sorry to see him go.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    James Earl Jones famously did the voice, but there was also a stunt-Vader, Bob Anderson (Anderson was a swordmaster - IIRC he was an Olympic fencer (bonus fact - so is Bruce Dickinson, lead singer of Iron Maiden!) and did a lot of swordfighting choreography in films) played Darth Vader in the swordfight scenes in ESB and RotJ, though I don't believe he was involved in Star Wars. Could be mistaken on that.
    Anderson was the fight arranger on ANH, but was uncredited, at least according to IMDB. In fact a number of Bob's films were uncredited; I would guess the reason for it was the same reason that people do temping or 'work experience' - to get their name out there, or because the production can't afford to pay full union rates, i.e. why actors sometimes go uncredited when it's small roles. George Lucas didn't exactly have a big budget for ANH, so Bob might've agreed to cut him a break or do him a favour or something. James Earl Jones himself went uncredited on ANH on its original release, he didn't start getting mentioned on the screen until ROTJ.

    And no, it definitely wasn't Anderson behind the mask for Vader during the fight scene of ANH; indeed (and not wanting speak ill of the dead) watch how Prowse and Alec Guinness shuffle their way through that duel, and it's glaringly apparent there's a different man behind the mask on ESB and ROTJ. Indeed the story is that because Prowse was (a) useless at fencing and (b) busting lightsaber props at a rapid rate, that's why Bob was put in the suit for the fight scenes for subsequent movies.

    But yeah, Bob Anderson: as said, British Olympian fencer, choreographed pretty much all of the significant sword fights in the sci-fi or fantasy movie realm in the last half to three quarters of the 20th century. Highlander, Princess Bride, Mask of Zorro, Lord of the Rings, Three Musketeers, pretty much any time you were enthralled by a sword duel on screen in a film from about 1975 - 2010 or so, it was Bob who made it happen and who trained the actors to make it look good. I'm hoping C.C. Smiff, who swordmastered some Game of Thrones and the Force Awakens duel, comes up to similar standards someday.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Anderson was the fight arranger on ANH but was uncredited, at least according to IMDB.
    Cool to know!
    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    And no, it definitely wasn't Anderson behind the mask for Vader during the fight scene of ANH
    ...I never said otherwise?
    Last edited by Peelee; 2020-12-04 at 12:32 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Cool to know!

    ...I never said otherwise?
    Nah, not saying you did :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saintheart View Post
    Nah, not saying you did :)
    Ah, my bad. Now I see how you meant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    David Prowse, most famous as the guy inside the Darth Vader costume, has died:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-55117704

    I always thought the way he could somehow be menacing through pure physical action was amazing.
    I read the title, and my mind instantly went to "James Earl Jones is dead?!"

    Then I read the first post. Mufasa may still be with us, but this is sad nonetheless.

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    Default Re: Darth Vader has left us

    I'm fairly sure I saw him once in Harvey Nichols, but I could never be certain.


    As regards the Alec Guinness point, he was paid a portion of gross royalties, specifically, I gather, a portion of that which would otherwise be paid to Lucas. So Lucas couldn't screw over Sir Alec without impacting his own income. And because that was royalties on the total revenue rather than ticket sales, every time Lucas re-released the trilogy on a new format, Sir Alec got a big payday.
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    And now Bobba Fett has also left us: RIP Jeremy Bulloch
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