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  1. - Top - End - #121
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by noob View Post
    Doing everything in less than 10 minutes and shoving all the unconscious opponents in bag of holdings is a solution I think.
    That or abuse teleportation circle if you are in an older edition(I am not sure teleportation circles are as good at mass transit in 5e)
    So... the only way to be ‘truly good’ is to go on adventures you are assured to complete handily in ten minutes and only then if you have a mountain of bags of holding (and a way to ensure they don’t suffocate inside), ones big enough to stuff that white dragon into... otherwise the only moral choice is to let the world end in the claws of dark Draconic powers?

  2. - Top - End - #122
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Hypothetical:

    A sheep farmer has one of his sheep killed and eaten by XXX. So the sheep farmer hunts down XXX and kills them. Then he goes home to celebrate his victory with a lice leg of lamb ...

    The Farmer believes he is GOOD and justified in killing XXX who he believes is EVIL, yet he just killed XXX for killing and eating a sheep - which he does over and over again AND he has killed XXX for it as well ...




    As to the question 'is killing always EVIL' - I do believe that there are situations where killing someone/thing is justified, but I believe those instances are rare. Most of the written campaigns I have played (mostly AL, and some hardcover) do a piss poor job of providing a justifiable motive for all of the killing they are designed around (in my opinion). When I play GOOD PC's I find myself often having to decide that they would do the thing the adventure wants them to do even though any decent person would not. You have to play as if your PC is the Tick - just stupid and delusionally heroic in order to keep the plot rolling.

    I'm just fine with the premise of the game, and the tactical challenge of winning battles with monsters etc, it's the hypocrisy of GOOD PC's solving everything by violence that bugs me. I'm fine with the suspension of disbelief that is fantasy role playing, but the dishonesty of the white hat team grates.

    Just my opinion. I was wondering if it was just me.
    A lice leg of lamb sounds nasty yo.

    As for the overall good/evil it's entirely a combination of action, motive, and method. I've played in mostly good parties.

    Your issue seems to be the lack of motive and method in AL modules more than the action itself.
    Last edited by Nhorianscum; 2020-12-01 at 03:48 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #123
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    So... the only way to be ‘truly good’ is to go on adventures you are assured to complete handily in ten minutes and only then if you have a mountain of bags of holding (and a way to ensure they don’t suffocate inside), ones big enough to stuff that white dragon into... otherwise the only moral choice is to let the world end in the claws of dark Draconic powers?
    You don't have to succeed to be GOOD. You just have to try real hard.

    And if you fail to save everyone you feel very bad about it for a long time.

  4. - Top - End - #124
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Democratus View Post
    You don't have to succeed to be GOOD. You just have to try real hard.

    And if you fail to save everyone you feel very bad about it for a long time.
    Its like... basic trolly problem stuff. Do let the plane of Toril die, or do I pull the lever and kill some cultists so the plane can live.
    Last edited by Naanomi; 2020-12-01 at 03:15 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #125
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    So... the only way to be ‘truly good’ is to go on adventures you are assured to complete handily in ten minutes and only then if you have a mountain of bags of holding (and a way to ensure they don’t suffocate inside), ones big enough to stuff that white dragon into... otherwise the only moral choice is to let the world end in the claws of dark Draconic powers?
    The dragon will not be put in a bag because it can survive the fall and the castle falling on it.
    And if you needed more than 10 minutes then you were not a proper 5 minute adventuring day adventurer: save the universe once per day in 5 minutes or go back to home.
    If you feel too guilty about failing to do all that in 10 minutes then just resurrect the villains you could not save.(and the villains knows that whatever you do to them when resurrecting them is less horrible than their afterlives because they already heard about how you resurrected the people you could not save(commoners and villains included))
    If you did not have enough bag of holding throw the villains far away by the windows so that they do not suffer from the castle falling on them after suffering falling damage.
    If you have a level 18 wizard set feather fall as a signature spell before crashing in the castle.
    Last edited by noob; 2020-12-01 at 03:22 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #126
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    I always assumed at epic level I can time travel to solve all my moral failures along the way so they never died in the first place

  7. - Top - End - #127
    Ettin in the Playground
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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    I always assumed at epic level I can time travel to solve all my moral failures along the way so they never died in the first place
    Does work, not work or be horribly unethical depending on the ethical system you use.
    But yes it is an option that can be considered.

  8. - Top - End - #128
    Orc in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by da newt View Post
    Hypothetical:

    A sheep farmer has one of his sheep killed and eaten by XXX. So the sheep farmer hunts down XXX and kills them. Then he goes home to celebrate his victory with a lice leg of lamb ...

    The Farmer believes he is GOOD and justified in killing XXX who he believes is EVIL, yet he just killed XXX for killing and eating a sheep - which he does over and over again AND he has killed XXX for it as well ...




    As to the question 'is killing always EVIL' - I do believe that there are situations where killing someone/thing is justified, but I believe those instances are rare. Most of the written campaigns I have played (mostly AL, and some hardcover) do a piss poor job of providing a justifiable motive for all of the killing they are designed around (in my opinion). When I play GOOD PC's I find myself often having to decide that they would do the thing the adventure wants them to do even though any decent person would not. You have to play as if your PC is the Tick - just stupid and delusionally heroic in order to keep the plot rolling.

    I'm just fine with the premise of the game, and the tactical challenge of winning battles with monsters etc, it's the hypocrisy of GOOD PC's solving everything by violence that bugs me. I'm fine with the suspension of disbelief that is fantasy role playing, but the dishonesty of the white hat team grates.

    Just my opinion. I was wondering if it was just me.
    As a few others pointed out, if the thing that killed the sheep was a wolf or other animal, then yeah no problem killing it. If it was his neighbor, that's much more problematic. I've never played AL but my impression is that is more railroady and less role play heavy than most home games, so that might be some of the problem. But how hard did you try to solve the given problem with means other than violence? Was the rest of the group like alright let's go kill these guys and you said to yourself well I don't want to spoil their fun so sure. Or did you try to say wait can we talk to them first? Or sneak past them? When the violence did start did you try to force them to surrender? Or did you just say alright well I guess they die now? If the reasons given for the quest aren't particularly strong did you ask questions? Did you talk to the group about it? Did you try a non violent approach in any way? If I was playing in a game where the first and only option was violence and the reasons for it were pretty thin than yeah I'd 100% agree that doesn't sound morally right or good. But I've never actually experienced that. In my games we either have (or make) non violent options or the cause is truly just.

  9. - Top - End - #129
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    I'm not sure where this "good implies must not kill" thing came from (except topics that aren't forum-appropriate). It's certainly not part of 5e's statement of what is Good or Evil. The only alignment statement that mentions violence at all is Chaotic Evil:

    Quote Originally Posted by PHB
    Chaotic evil (CE) creatures act with arbitrary violence, spurred by their greed, hatred, or bloodlust.
    And that qualifies it heavily: not any violence (which may not even be killing), but arbitrary violence. And not for any reason, but motivated by "greed, hatred, or bloodlust".

    So yeah. If you're killing because your character thinks killing is fun and loves to see the pain it causes and doesn't really care who he kills (or selects them on a whim), he's likely Chaotic Evil.

    But a Lawful Good person can kill as long as a) it's not arbitrary (ie there are considered reasons for the people chosen), b) it's not motivated by greed, hatred, or bloodlust, and c) it is the "right thing as expected by society". Etc for the other alignments, modifying c) as needed.

    Killing isn't even a necessary hallmark of Evil per se (only Chaotic Evil)--you could have a completely non-violent Lawful Evil person. Never caused violence to any individual, completely pacifist. And corrupt, "methodically take what they want, within the limits of a code of tradition, loyalty, or order".

    So yeah. The idea that good D&D characters must try to capture, not kill, and aren't good if they don't take the most heroic and nonsensical means to achieve that goal, even at the cost of failing the mission and letting evil prevail in the wider scope is completely external to D&D. And, in my opinion, total nonsense as a criteria for a heroic-adventurer game.
    Last edited by PhoenixPhyre; 2020-12-01 at 06:01 PM.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
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  10. - Top - End - #130
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    The best argument for goodness = pacifism in DnD to me is that Elysium (the ultimate plane of Good unadulterated by other influences) leans heavily that direction... but even there we have specifically combative celestials; and every other Upper Planes has very explicit places and entities who crusade against evil (both in the planes and the prime)

  11. - Top - End - #131
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Daemon

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    The best argument for goodness = pacifism in DnD to me is that Elysium (the ultimate plane of Good unadulterated by other influences) leans heavily that direction... but even there we have specifically combative celestials; and every other Upper Planes has very explicit places and entities who crusade against evil (both in the planes and the prime)
    Isn't that a little be flawed, to consider any particular "Good" plane to be the purest form of good? It's not like alignment is some form of bounded-in-sum property (where adding law or chaos to good makes you necessarily less good)--I"m sure that the other planes would strongly disagree that Elysium is the "ultimate plane of Good". It's a plane of Good, for people with particular properties including a general, rebuttable reluctance to engage in violence. Solars are as good as it gets, and they're super non-pacifistic. Same with all the angels. They take much more after the "angel of destruction" motif than the "cherub with harp" motif.
    Dawn of Hope: a 5e setting. http://wiki.admiralbenbo.org
    Rogue Equivalent Damage calculator, now prettier and more configurable!
    5e Monster Data Sheet--vital statistics for all 693 MM, Volo's, and now MToF monsters: Updated!
    NIH system 5e fork, very much WIP. Base github repo.
    NIH System PDF Up to date main-branch build version.

  12. - Top - End - #132
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    Isn't that a little be flawed, to consider any particular "Good" plane to be the purest form of good? It's not like alignment is some form of bounded-in-sum property (where adding law or chaos to good makes you necessarily less good)--I"m sure that the other planes would strongly disagree that Elysium is the "ultimate plane of Good". It's a plane of Good, for people with particular properties including a general, rebuttable reluctance to engage in violence. Solars are as good as it gets, and they're super non-pacifistic. Same with all the angels. They take much more after the "angel of destruction" motif than the "cherub with harp" motif.
    This.

    There is no "the one good" in 5e.

    Quote Originally Posted by Naanomi View Post
    The best argument for goodness = pacifism in DnD to me is that Elysium (the ultimate plane of Good unadulterated by other influences) leans heavily that direction... but even there we have specifically combative celestials; and every other Upper Planes has very explicit places and entities who crusade against evil (both in the planes and the prime)
    Quote Originally Posted by PhoenixPhyre View Post
    I'm not sure where this "good implies must not kill" thing came from
    Even Lulu the Hollyphant will kill you if you attack her.

    Good = devoted pacifism has not been a thing in DnD since the mess that the 3.X Book of Exalted Deeds was, as far as I know.

  13. - Top - End - #133
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
    MonkGirl

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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Sorry, I was unclear...

    1) I think that was the *best* argument, not that it was definitive or even complete.

    2) I said it was 'free of other influences', not that this means it was 'more good' than either of the five total 'completely good aligned upper planes' (though arguably more good than Ysgard and Arcadia, which are also counted among the Upper Planes)... although there are probably planar scholars who would say that it does make it 'more good' (certainly baernoloth would call The Grey Wastes 'more evil' for lacking the 'taint' of Law or Chaos)

    I don't agree with that viewpoint myself, though I suspect *most* pacifistic worldviews are in the Good camp somewhere... the Cosmic alignments make it clear that fighting (and redeeming, but also destroying) Evil is 'good' as far as the Great Wheel is concerned

  14. - Top - End - #134
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: anyone ever campaign a truly GOOD party?

    Hmm. My current Pathfinder campaign has tended along these lines, though I'm running rather than playing. Adventures so far have included figuring out how to drive off a group of goblins that were stealing livestock and farming tools (actively brainstorming ways to do so nonviolently), investigating the massacre of said goblins and the background of one of its survivors- a human girl apparently raised by goblins, but possibly heir to a duchy- an attempt to resolve a wicked fey's haunting of a craftsman, an exploration/looting of some Elven ruins, and the current trek to find some children lost in the woods and subsequently abducted by cultists.

    They've killed two sapient beings so far- a mercenary who arranged for the goblin girl's rescue/abduction, and the gremlin haunting the craftsman. They didn't start either fight. The mercenary was inadvertently killed while trying to escape after losing the fight, while the fey was executed after falling victim to a lucky sleep effect. In both cases the party made extensive efforts to talk down or nonlethally subdue other sapient enemies, despite some house rules that make knocking someone out without risking killing them considerably more difficult (but does provide a range where enemies are injured enough to impair their ability to fight, but still conscious and able to surrender), or outright avoid combat via negotiation, diplomacy, or outright bribery.

    Interestingly, knowing the party and players, I'd be surprised if more than half of them actually had "Good," written on their character sheet.

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