Assuming the order finds the gate. What next?

[Hopeless]

What if Redcloak's niece turns up?

Assuming she knows what Redcloak did to her father and her lonely pilgrimage results in her becoming a cleric and discovers Redcloak isn't a follower of the Dark One, retains his powers only because he has the mantle?

Its a bit late for a reveal of thats sort, but what if the paladins wasn't the only ones watching the area and they were picked up too?

[Schroeswald]

I do expect Redcloak’s niece to show up eventually and my current theory is that she is trying to avenge her father by killing Redcloak

[Arcane_Secrets]

Feh. You make it look hard, when it really isn't. As we know, whoever vanquishes a Supreme Leader will immediately become the new Supreme Leader, and as such, an honorary hobgoblin. Now, all Durkon has to do is torture Redcloak to death while he sleeps and then desecrate his corpse or whatever, to become non-Good. And then all he needs to do is don the Mantle and Big Purple will certainly recognize this new, somewhat short and hairy hobgoblin as his new high priest, because this short and hairy hobgoblin will be a hobgoblin and all. And then suddenly everything will be all sunshine and happiness, because it will turn out Big Purple was a really nice guy all along, and Redcloak was a bad influence on him.

These answers are both so implausible for Durkon doing any of this or the Dark One buying it that congratulations-you've really talked me out of thinking that him ever using the Crimson Mantle could ever work even if he could get it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Assuming she knows what Redcloak did to her father and her lonely pilgrimage results in her becoming a cleric and discovers Redcloak isn't a follower of the Dark One, retains his powers only because he has the mantle?

Uh, explain to me again the part about Redcloak not being a follower of TDO? Not seeing how you arrived there.

[skim172]

Feh. You make it look hard, when it really isn't. As we know, whoever vanquishes a Supreme Leader will immediately become the new Supreme Leader, and as such, an honorary hobgoblin. Now, all Durkon has to do is torture Redcloak to death while he sleeps and then desecrate his corpse or whatever, to become non-Good. And then all he needs to do is don the Mantle and Big Purple will certainly recognize this new, somewhat short and hairy hobgoblin as his new high priest, because this short and hairy hobgoblin will be a hobgoblin and all. And then suddenly everything will be all sunshine and happiness, because it will turn out Big Purple was a really nice guy all along, and Redcloak was a bad influence on him.

Hmm. That leads to a question: Does Redcloak ever take off his red cloak? Or is it like something he's got to keep on at all times? In which case, how does he get it laundered? How can he take a shower? Does Redcloak just smell really awful all the time? Does that cloak have a century's worth of mud, blood, crud, and general filth encrusted upon it?

If he does take it off - then what if someone swipes it and puts it on while Redcloak's away? Does that dude then become the Dark One's high priest, on virtue of wearing the cloak? In which case, is the Dark One's church a cloak-ocracy? And is it a fair system of governance?

Could Durkon just pose as a dry cleaner, swing by to pick up the mantle, put it on, and then have a face-to-face convo with the Dark One?

More on the Crimson Mantle - wouldn't the crimson start to fade after a while? We know it can get tattered and torn, so the thread is not invulnerable. So does the dye fade, too? Does Redcloak have to regularly re-dye the cloth to maintain the color? What does he do when the stitches start to go and the hem starts to fray? Does he have to get it patched and restored? Does it lose any of its holiness when he does so?

If, over time, the Crimson Mantle is re-patched and restored, with its threads and fabric having to be replaced bit by bit, until eventually none of the original materials remain - then can it still be said the same Crimson Mantle? Is its power imbued within the physical matter itself - or is it the essential idea of the Mantle that holds the power?

Does Redcloak ever wrap himself in it while in the nude, wearing nothing but the cloak? If so, is that sacrilege?

[Reboot]

b) Find a Helm of Opposite Alignment.

Which would make Durkon CE, not LN, and so just as far from TDO as he was already.

Hmm. That leads to a question: Does Redcloak ever take off his red cloak? Or is it like something he's got to keep on at all times?

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html

[skim172]

https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0149.html

Excellent.

So now the Order just needs to set up a reputable dry cleaning franchise.

[WolvesbaneIII]

Excellent.

So now the Order just needs to set up a reputable dry cleaning franchise.

Ahoy hoy! Good day sir! I can see you are a goblin of good taste and prestiege! Might I offer you our services? we do high quality dry cleaning at the low low price of (x) gold pieces!

Hmm. I am in need of a good dry cleaning service out in this part of the world. What is your dry cleaning services company name?

Uh, the uh, Order of the rinse?

Disintegrate

[B. Pseudonym]

My main objection to the dry-cleaning scheme is that Redcloak kind of knows what some of the Order looks like. It only took him like a page, maybe a page and a half to recognize Durkon.

Given the rich potential for situation comedy inherent to the dry-cleaning scheme, it is unlikely that they would be able to get the cloak in less than a page and a half.

Therefore, only party members that either know Redcloak won't recognize them or have some effective means of disguising their faces could take point on this operation, and I don't actually know which ones Redcloak would recognize, leaving us only the disguise users.

The Order's supply of disguise/illusion users consists of Elan, Vaarsuvius, and arguably Haley.

I don't think I trust any of those people to carry on a conversation with Redcloak. Each one has their own set of fascinating reasons to screw things up.

But maybe we're overthinking it. Haley and Vaarsuvius are really fast and mobile, and Redcloak does have to sleep. Just tear it off him when he's not looking and fly away. Redcloak can't fly, and therefore will not be able to chase them.

It's foolproof!

Unless he gets a lucky Disintegrate or two off before they get out of range. Or if he summons a flying creature. Or if Oona, Xykon, and/or possibly MitD go after them. Or if he manages to restrict their movement somehow. Or if the clasp on the Mantle is too well-made for Haley and V to overcome without waking him up. Or if they make a noise on their way in. Or if it turns out some member of Team Evil watches Redcloak sleep, for whatever reason, and notices the cloak being stolen.

But other than that? Foolproof.

[BeerMug Paladin]

As long as people are considering outlandish ideas, I feel the need to point out that the reincarnate spell exists, and Belkar could thus reincarnate as a goblin of some variety, then don the cloak and start taking cleric levels. Bam, there we go, an evil goblin bearer of the crimson mantle on the order's team.

Even with a wisdom score too low to cast spells, he would still have the spell slots. He'd just solo Xykon and MITD after that back-to-back and just gain 16 more levels from it to allow for the final sealing of the snarl. Then he'd drop dead after realizing his entire life peaked, as that's clearly an achievement that he'll never top, so living any longer is utterly pointless.

Onto other matters, I don't think there is a group plan for what to do with the gate if they happen to stumble across it. They simply have hiding to buy time on their agenda at the moment until they can make a better plan. So whatever they do next will just be contingent on whatever they happen to blindly stumble across.

[Metastachydium]

These answers are both so implausible for Durkon doing any of this or the Dark One buying it that congratulations-you've really talked me out of thinking that him ever using the Crimson Mantle could ever work even if he could get it.

Mission target: accomplished!

Hmm. That leads to a question: Does Redcloak ever take off his red cloak? Or is it like something he's got to keep on at all times? In which case, how does he get it laundered? How can he take a shower? Does Redcloak just smell really awful all the time? Does that cloak have a century's worth of mud, blood, crud, and general filth encrusted upon it?

I'd say this is how negative stereotypes about the goblinoids were born:even their high priest smells.

More on the Crimson Mantle - wouldn't the crimson start to fade after a while? We know it can get tattered and torn, so the thread is not invulnerable. So does the dye fade, too? Does Redcloak have to regularly re-dye the cloth to maintain the color? What does he do when the stitches start to go and the hem starts to fray? Does he have to get it patched and restored? Does it lose any of its holiness when he does so?

Shouldn't we perhaps add Professon (tailor) to his entry in the Class and Level thread then?

Does Redcloak ever wrap himself in it while in the nude, wearing nothing but the cloak? If so, is that sacrilege?

I strongly hope the answers to those question are no, and yes, in that exact order.

[Goblin_Priest]

Easy.

Spoiler

Show

1) First, it must be acknowledged that the Dark One is Lawful Evil, and clerics can only be one step of their god's alignment. Durkon is LG (Thor likely being NG), so he has to shift down to Lawful Neutral, minimum.
2) But of course, it's pretty hard to switch alignment in the span of a few days. Thus, Durkon can take 2 paths:

a) Quickly commit some Evil acts Miko-style. Never mind that it would be horribly out of character - just have him kick Mr. Scruffy a couple of times.

b) Find a Helm of Opposite Alignment. Again, considering the Order only has a few days and no means of fast transport (now that the Mechane has likely departed), this has a high chance of succeeding.

3) Once Durkon is comfortably settled as Lawful Neutral, he can now pop over to Redcloak and ask nicely for the Mantle. Again, never mind that the Order has no clue how the Cloak works or its power. Also, this requires Durkon to defeat Redcloak, which despite a minimum of four levels gap is easily achievable and effortless.

4) Now, Durkon has to switch gods. Imean, a major part of the last book was him reaffirming his faith in Thor, but Thor understands emergencies. Durkon, who hasn't even heard of the Dark One until a few days ago, will now believably switch an entire religion to a god whose people he has a racial bonus against.

5) The Dark One, who apparently has the observational skills of an ooze, won't notice Durkon performing this well-timed and intelligent switch. Something's off about his High Priest, as in someone completely different from a guy who has worn the cloak for over 30 years. No biggie.

6) Durkon decides to tell the Dark One to call it off. When asked "or else what?" Durkon has nothing to respond with because he has zero leverage.

Wait...

Is TDO lawful evil? Do we have any canon source on that? The only canon references I know of states he is evil, nothing more. Maglubiyet, on which he is based, in NE iirc. In D&D, goblins are NE, and he is a goblin. Further, as the goblinoids have races for each alignment, not being NE would prevent him from having CE clerics.

Which, mind you, would fit the whole "the bugbears don't give a big whoops about TDO", and why they have shamans and not clerics, if TDO is LE and they are CE.

So, him being LE would totally fit what we know, but, still, I don't think we have canonical confirmation of him being LE.

And as was pointed out, opposite of LG is CE. Which, if TDO is LE, wouldn't be any better.

Feh. You make it look hard, when it really isn't. As we know, whoever vanquishes a Supreme Leader will immediately become the new Supreme Leader, and as such, an honorary hobgoblin. Now, all Durkon has to do is torture Redcloak to death while he sleeps and then desecrate his corpse or whatever, to become non-Good. And then all he needs to do is don the Mantle and Big Purple will certainly recognize this new, somewhat short and hairy hobgoblin as his new high priest, because this short and hairy hobgoblin will be a hobgoblin and all. And then suddenly everything will be all sunshine and happiness, because it will turn out Big Purple was a really nice guy all along, and Redcloak was a bad influence on him.

While I don't see it happening, Durkon becoming the bearer of the Crimson Mantle on the technicality of being a honorary hobgoblin for defeating the Supreme Leader would be frigging hilarious.

[skim172]

My main objection to the dry-cleaning scheme is that Redcloak kind of knows what some of the Order looks like. It only took him like a page, maybe a page and a half to recognize Durkon.

Given the rich potential for situation comedy inherent to the dry-cleaning scheme, it is unlikely that they would be able to get the cloak in less than a page and a half.

Therefore, only party members that either know Redcloak won't recognize them or have some effective means of disguising their faces could take point on this operation, and I don't actually know which ones Redcloak would recognize, leaving us only the disguise users.

The Order's supply of disguise/illusion users consists of Elan, Vaarsuvius, and arguably Haley.

I don't think I trust any of those people to carry on a conversation with Redcloak. Each one has their own set of fascinating reasons to screw things up.

But maybe we're overthinking it. Haley and Vaarsuvius are really fast and mobile, and Redcloak does have to sleep. Just tear it off him when he's not looking and fly away. Redcloak can't fly, and therefore will not be able to chase them.

It's foolproof!

You're thinking too small. What the Order does is take that Crimson Mantle and then dye it with polka dots.

He'd become a laughingstock. His followers would abandon him in droves. Xykon would abandon him as an ally because he can't be seen with someone so uncool. The Dark One himself will reconsider his choice of servant.

No leader can ever be taken seriously while wearing polka dots. It's why Minnie Mouse holds no religious office.

[mormon_soldier]

Ahoy hoy! Good day sir! I can see you are a goblin of good taste and prestiege! Might I offer you our services? we do high quality dry cleaning at the low low price of (x) gold pieces!

Hmm. I am in need of a good dry cleaning service out in this part of the world. What is your dry cleaning services company name?

Uh, the uh, Order of the rinse?

Disintegrate

Redcloak takes the name dry cleaning very seriously.

[Fish]

I don't know why we would assume that the Order finds the gate. It seems likely they'll encounter the defenders of the gate, Kermit and Scooter. The gate? I wouldn't bet money on it.

Finding the gate does not strongly drive the plot through the middle of the current book, at least not from the protagonists' perspective. They would ... put up defenses of some kind, and wait until something happened?

[understatement]

Is TDO lawful evil? Do we have any canon source on that? The only canon references I know of states he is evil, nothing more. Maglubiyet, on which he is based, in NE iirc. In D&D, goblins are NE, and he is a goblin. Further, as the goblinoids have races for each alignment, not being NE would prevent him from having CE clerics.

Which, mind you, would fit the whole "the bugbears don't give a big whoops about TDO", and why they have shamans and not clerics, if TDO is LE and they are CE.

So, him being LE would totally fit what we know, but, still, I don't think we have canonical confirmation of him being LE.

And as was pointed out, opposite of LG is CE. Which, if TDO is LE, wouldn't be any better.

Thanks. I thought the Helm only changed alignment in one direction, so to speak.

I'm not sure on god alignments, but Redcloak has the Law domain and he labels his god Evil several times, so I'd thought it'd be safe to assume The Dark One is LE. Also, it looks like the goblin afterlife is Acheron, between LN and LE.

Maybe the shamans could be NE? There might not also be that one-step rule for clerics, in consideration of Durkon and Thor. I dunno.

[hamishspence]

Maglubiyet (god of goblinoids) in 3e is NE, resides in Acheron, and offers the Chaos domain. So a god's alignment does not need to match their home plane, and it does not need to exactly match the domains they offer.

If the same is true in OOTS, then the Dark One could be like Maglubiyet but Law-leaning rather than Chaos-leaning - NE but offering the Law domain.

[Edric O]

But if this was the real world ... well, imagine that Cthulhu suddenly awakens, arises, and occupies the city of Montreal, where he and his horde of humanoid giant squids construct a doomsday artifact by which they hope to disassemble the fabric of space-time. And the only people headed towards Montreal at this moment are UFC champion Khabib Nurmagomedov and a team composed of a Olympic shooter, a quantum physicist, a doctor, an indie folk singer, and a psychopath serial killer - all of whom have outsized personalities, hilarious badinage, and moving backstories. The rest of the world - sits back and watches.

Just feels like we could be more active somehow.

But in the Stickverse, the rest of the world doesn't know what is happening at all, and the Order couldn't spare the time to inform them or wait for backup. So it's not like Cthulhu and his horde of humanoid giant squids occupying the city of Montreal, it's more like them occupying a random spot in Antarctica, and the Order of Khabib are the only people close enough to reach Cthulhu before he successfully disassembles the fabric of space-time.

[skim172]

But in the Stickverse, the rest of the world doesn't know what is happening at all, and the Order couldn't spare the time to inform them or wait for backup. So it's not like Cthulhu and his horde of humanoid giant squids occupying the city of Montreal, it's more like them occupying a random spot in Antarctica, and the Order of Khabib are the only people close enough to reach Cthulhu before he successfully disassembles the fabric of space-time.

I dunno, the Dwarves and the Azurites, at least, must know the urgency. And Tarquin and his buddies are aware of the problem generally.

Yes, only the residents of Thane City are definitely updated on the urgency of the circumstances and the Azurites are weakened and far away - but you'd think those groups would send what they could, given the stakes?

Like, if the Order of Khabib's only allies were the residents of Saskatoon and what remained of the Australians after Cthulhu arose from his sleep underneath Sydney Opera House - I'd think they'd try to send what they could, you know? Like whatever was left of the Australian Defense Force, and maybe the local Saskatchewan troop of Mounties. What else do they have on their schedule that outweighs "imminent end of the cosmos"? You'd think there'd be some volunteers.

And why don't the Order of Khabib just ask broadly for some more help, y'know? Send out a request for assistance. It's the end of all existence - couldn't they put together a crowdfunding campaign at least to cover costs? Sure, secrecy is important - the Australian Secret Intelligence Service/Sapphire Guard has devoted decades to preserving the secret that New South Wales was just R'yleh's penthouse - but it feels like secrecy should be a secondary priority at this point.

[Fish]

And why don't the Order of Khabib just ask broadly for some more help, y'know?

In a world in which being evil is literally a life choice, let's broadcast a warning: if you come here to the North Pole and kick this gate hard enough, the world will be destroyed. Who's with us?

Yeah, I don't think that's a very good plan. You're going to get a lot of responses, but maybe not all of them will be people helping you.

[Emanick]

In a world in which being evil is literally a life choice, let's broadcast a warning: if you come here to the North Pole and kick this gate hard enough, the world will be destroyed. Who's with us?

Yeah, I don't think that's a very good plan. You're going to get a lot of responses, but maybe not all of them will be people helping you.

This is a fair point, but a more targeted request for backup still seems like it would be a good idea.

For instance, it seems like Hinjo should be putting together a delegation to ask the elven government to help with the situation. He probably has the ability to get their attention, and they should have both the ability to help and the motive to do so. Sure, there are reasons why they might say no, but I still think it would be worth a shot.

Narratively, of course, this is extremely unlikely to happen, but it's conceivable that Hinjo does try this and that that's why he shows up at the North Pole during this book, which seems likely since he "still has a major part to play" in the story and Belkar needs to save his life one more time. Perhaps the elves send a strike team to help defend the Gate on the condition that Hinjo goes with them, and the strike team gets killed somehow?

[skim172]

In a world in which being evil is literally a life choice, let's broadcast a warning: if you come here to the North Pole and kick this gate hard enough, the world will be destroyed. Who's with us?

Yeah, I don't think that's a very good plan. You're going to get a lot of responses, but maybe not all of them will be people helping you.

I don't know about that. The end of the universe is imminent - should we be worrying about the long-term ramifications of broader public knowledge of the Snarl's existence, when the short-term is hardly guaranteed? It'd be like the X-Files covering up knowledge of aliens during the finale of Independence Day - I think that people will figure out the truth when the world explodes.

I'd also question if there are many persons who would be motivated to enact the end of all things. The Snarl isn't just a force for evil - it's literally the end of everything, including evil folks. Xykon himself has stated he's not particularly desirous of that outcome. It's tough for evil people to achieve evil goals when the universe doesn't exist. Kim Jong-Un is a pretty evil dictator, but I think even he would hesitate to undo all the molecules of the solar system if that technology was made available. Continued existence is generally a shared goal among mortals of all alignments.

In fact, the only evil schemes we've observed so far that incorporate the end of the world as a potential outcome or a planned-for contingency have all come from the gods, who are all aware of the Snarl anyway.

Again - I accept that for this story to work in any way, this plot direction wouldn't be at all feasible. But if you ever so happen to discover that indeed Cthulhu has occupied the city of Montreal and is on the verge of voiding all the laws of nature, and somehow no one on Earth besides you are aware of it ... I really would hope you'd reconsider attacking the problem with only yourself and a ragtag team of misfits who no one else believed in.

[dancrilis]

I don't know about that. The end of the universe is imminent - should we be worrying about the long-term ramifications of broader public knowledge of the Snarl's existence, when the short-term is hardly guaranteed? It'd be like the X-Files covering up knowledge of aliens during the finale of Independence Day - I think that people will figure out the truth when the world explodes.

I'd also question if there are many persons who would be motivated to enact the end of all things. The Snarl isn't just a force for evil - it's literally the end of everything, including evil folks. Xykon himself has stated he's not particularly desirous of that outcome. It's tough for evil people to achieve evil goals when the universe doesn't exist.

The Holey Brotherhood didn't seem evil but were in favour of holes existing, so it is not just evil people you need to worry about but also the misguided - and many evil people will likely discount your warnings in favour of claiming the power for their respective forces (demon lords, arch devils, themselves etc).

Again - I accept that for this story to work in any way, this plot direction wouldn't be at all feasible. But if you ever so happen to discover that indeed Cthulhu has occupied the city of Montreal and is on the verge of voiding all the laws of nature, and somehow no one on Earth besides you are aware of it ... I really would hope you'd reconsider attacking the problem with only yourself and a ragtag team of misfits who no one else believed in.

If this happens not only will I keep it to myself but I will not actually try to tackle the problem.
What is more likely.
1. That Cthulhu is raising and only I know about it.
2. I have went insane.

I think 2 is the likely more reasonable option and so I would likely be better off keeping my crazy to myself.

[skim172]

If this happens not only will I keep it to myself but I will not actually try to tackle the problem.
What is more likely.
1. That Cthulhu is raising and only I know about it.
2. I have went insane.

I think 2 is the likely more reasonable option and so I would likely be better off keeping my crazy to myself.

I'm now convinced that Cthulhu has risen and only you know about it.
This is the "Refusal of the Call" stage of your hero's journey.


Next is "Supernatural Aid", so be on the lookout for wandering wizards, mystic oracles, or an artifact falling from the heavens. I understand the Hayabusa-2 space capsule safely returned to Earth yesterday with samples collected from an asteroid. It certainly must hold the answers you seek.

[KorvinStarmast]

What else do they have on their schedule that outweighs "imminent end of the cosmos"? You'd think there'd be some volunteers.

People are too busy following a hilarious, or an aggrivating, Twitter feed. Or watching The Voice.

And why don't the Order of Khabib just ask broadly for some more help, y'know?

They set up a GoFundMe page.

It'd be like the X-Files covering up knowledge of aliens during the finale of Independence Day - I think that people will figure out the truth when the world explodes.

Which would be a touch too late.

I'd also question if there are many persons who would be motivated to enact the end of all things. {snip} Continued existence is generally a shared goal among mortals of all alignments.
{snip} But if you ever so happen to discover that indeed Cthulhu has occupied the city of Montreal and is on the verge of voiding all the laws of nature, and somehow no one on Earth besides you are aware of it ... I really would hope you'd reconsider attacking the problem with only yourself and a ragtag team of misfits who no one else believed in.

What? I tweeted my outrage over the lack of governmental response, isn't that doing enough?

[Fish]

I don't know about that. ... I'd also question if there are many persons who would be motivated to enact the end of all things.

"So, ( Mr Bond | Superman | People of the New Republic ) now that I have you at my mercy, let me tell you about my doomsday device for destroying (the world | the world's supply of gold | the world's supply of water | global telecommunications | the state of California | the galaxy ) unless you give me [insert exorbitant ransom here]."

I think you'll find a lot of evil people would be happy to pretend to destroy the world, and fight over the right to possess the doomsday device for their own reasons.

[Goblin_Priest]

Maglubiyet (god of goblinoids) in 3e is NE, resides in Acheron, and offers the Chaos domain. So a god's alignment does not need to match their home plane, and it does not need to exactly match the domains they offer.

If the same is true in OOTS, then the Dark One could be like Maglubiyet but Law-leaning rather than Chaos-leaning - NE but offering the Law domain.

We know Redcloak has the Law domain? I feel like I keep forgetting that.

Also... what? Gods granting alignment domains which they don't adhere to? That makes no sense at all.

[KorvinStarmast]

Also... what? Gods granting alignment domains which they don't adhere to? That makes no sense at all.

Arwen Undomiel begs to differ with the second to last sentence in your signature. The lore in Minas Tirith is that on their honeymoon night

Spoiler: What happened before the editor got ahold of the manuscript

Show

her repetitious singing of "Sweet Mystery of Life, at last I've found you!" could be heard as far away as the Pellenor Fields

[The Pilgrim]

Assuming the Order finds The Gate, their next challenge is to find a way to get it destroyed without getting repetitive. After four gates blown up, it's not going to be an easy task.

[Precure]

Assuming the Order finds The Gate, their next challenge is to find a way to get it destroyed without getting repetitive. After four gates blown up, it's not going to be an easy task.

Greyview: Existence is pain *bites the gate*

KABOOOOM!!!