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Thread: how does liquid pain work?
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2020-11-29, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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how does liquid pain work?
Originally Posted by liquid pain
also what if you reduce the casting time to 1 standard action?
how does this spell work?
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2020-11-29, 12:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
The casting time is 1 day, the reiteration in the spell's description is functionally fluff. But other than that, yes, you spend 24 hours (or, more precisely, 14,400 full round actions) casting the spell and then you get a touch 'attack' to perform once. Rules for holding touch attacks should apply.
I cannot recall off the top of my head if reducing cast times that long is even possible, but I think it isn't, so the question seems moot. But arguably, at that point the First line of text stops being fluff and becomes the spell effect, you just no longer need to be around for it anymore.
For comparison, the Pain Extractor item also takes one day to perform the task.Last edited by Draken; 2020-11-29 at 12:29 PM.
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2020-11-29, 12:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
so if you have liquid pain as a sla, its a standard action. dont look up the rules in d20srd its wrong. rules compendium made it clear its a standard action and there are monsters that cast 12 hour casting time spells as a standard action as an sla. so d20srd is wrong.
anyways, so if you have liquid pain as a sla, your saying if i touch a creature 100 times, 24 hours later i get 100 doses of liquid pain?
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2020-11-29, 12:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
Last edited by Draken; 2020-11-29 at 12:49 PM.
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2020-11-29, 01:10 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
Best I can tell, the spell as written normally takes about two days to use: first, one day to cast; then, once you've cast it, you can touch the target and the effect requires you to spend another day to extract the agony.
Now, if you're not cheesing down the casting time, you'd have a good case to argue that the RAW is poorly written and the spell's author didn't properly think through the "all pertinent decisions about a spell when the spell comes into effect" thing. But in that case it probably wouldn't really matter all that much whether you're taking a day or two days to do the extraction, either.
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2020-11-29, 01:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
more relevant text
Originally Posted by pain as power
afaict the number doesnt reset so i guess all characters can only give a finite number of doses.
extraction is automated right. tap the guy and he will drip out agony into the focus without any maintenance from the caster right? cause no rules about interruption or stuff like that.
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2020-11-29, 09:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
No it isn't. That text and the rules compendium text don't conflict. Both say "usually a standard action." SRD says match the spell unless otherwise noted, rules compendium says match the spell if it's less than a standard. Nowhere does it say always a standard unless the mimicked spell is less.
Usually =/= always
The table on page 8 is superscripted and directs you to look to the spell like ability for instruction. It is included in the table under "standard" because that's "usually" correct but, thanks to the superscript, not definitive.I am not seaweed. That's a B.
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2020-11-29, 09:56 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
d20srd is not rules. its nothing. its supposed to be easy access rules of the phb but its not. it adds its own house rules everywhere.
so lets see.
1st party book monsters using spells with long casting times as standard action sla
rules compendium directly saying its a standard action unless noted otherwise, or the original casting time is less than a standard action. meaning original spell casting time is not "noted otherwise".
v.s.
you trying to cram in d20srds house rule by a table referenced for swift actions? what?
im not gonna entertain any argument that uses d20srds house rule, or any argument that makes all the monsters that use long duration casting time spells as a standard action sla illegal.
Originally Posted by rules compendiumOriginally Posted by rules compendium
spell description =/= ability descriptionLast edited by newguydude1; 2020-11-29 at 10:01 PM.
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2020-11-29, 10:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
The SRD is a combination reprint of the open source content of core books and the updates from the rules compendium. Heck, the parts of the Rules compendium you are quoting are in the SRD about Spell-Like abilities. I have my copy of the Rules compendium open, they are line for line the same.
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2020-11-29, 10:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-29, 10:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
That would be from the 3.5 Monster Manual, page 315. As I said, the SRD is a combination of all Open Source material, in the case of spell-like abilities, it references the rules found in the DMG, MM and Rules compendium.
Edit: Also, Rules Compendium, page 118. It's there too, paragraph 4, under the Spell-like abilities header, which is under the Special Abilities section.Last edited by One Step Two; 2020-11-29 at 10:51 PM.
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2020-11-29, 10:55 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
this is mm
Originally Posted by mm p.315
Originally Posted by rules compendium p.118
Originally Posted by d20srd
if you cannot find a sourcebook that says sla cast time is the same as the spell it mimics, then your wrong, and d20srd is a house rule sneaking unreliable source.
rules compendium very clearly stated that
original spell casting time =/= otherwise noted
this is open and shut, further proved by monsters who use long duration cast time spells as a standard action in their own monster entry.Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-11-29 at 11:38 PM.
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2020-11-30, 12:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
I will concede that there is no word-for-word copy of the line the SRD uses, but I believe it's in reference to this line:
Originally Posted by Players Handbook, pg 180
Edit: Where the rules get funny, is if you have a class feature which specifically lets you turn a spell into a spell-like and calls it out as a standard action, that might be the case where general trumps specific.Last edited by One Step Two; 2020-11-30 at 12:04 AM.
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2020-11-30, 12:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-30, 12:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-30, 12:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-30, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
introduction of rules compendium
Originally Posted by rules compendium p.1
1. rules compendium beats all
2. rules compendium p.8 directly says
Originally Posted by rules compendium p.8
4. your phb quote directly says ability description =/= spell description
therefore all slas are standard actions unless the monster entry itself says its not.Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-11-30 at 12:35 AM.
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2020-11-30, 12:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
Firstly, the fact that there is no word-for-word copy of the line from d20srd (not "the" SRD by the way, the SRD is a publically available set of documents published by wizards of the coast) means that d20srd are taking their own interpretations of rules and publishing them as RAW, when that's not the case. Kinda irritating in all honesty.
That aside, the line you quoted from the PHB is directly contradicted by every other source, including another source within the phb itself, page 142, which specifically says "The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise." Note it doesn't say "Usually" anywhere, it is flat out a standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise, No mention of spell descriptions. Rules compendium adds to this rule, saying that if an SLA duplicates a spell that normally has a casting time of less than a standard action, it uses that casting time instead, so spells like feather fall aren't useless as SLAs.
This is also backed up, as newguy said, by monsters in the MM1, on more than one occasion, being cited as using SLAs of spells with long casting times in the middle of combat.World of Madius wiki - My personal campaign setting, including my homebrew Optional Gestalt/LA rules.
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2020-11-30, 12:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2020-11-30, 12:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
Look at every ganging up on the nice man who hunted down the rule d20srd was using.
Concerning the OP's original question, spell descriptions often refer to their own casting time.
Contingency for example.
Originally Posted by Contingency
So obviously the "over the course of a one day" refers to casting time and casting time only and is ignored if the spell is cast as an SLA.
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2020-11-30, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
I still take it at face value that even using only the rules compendium as a single source, the description of "Usually, a spell-like ability works just like the spell of that name. A few spell-like abilities are unique; these are explained in the text where they’re described[...] Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted." Is pointing out that there are exceptions to the single standard action, much like monsters who can cast spells of longer cast time as a standard action in their own stat-block.
In this case, unless your method of gaining Liquid Pain as an SLA specifically calls out the change to the casting time or action, it would still take a full day. As gogogome pointed out, using Shadow Evocation trumps the 10 minute cast time of contingency, and like it, unless your method of gaining an SLA changes it, it become the exception to the rule "Usually takes a standard action", in this case, it is unusual.
With that said, if you are simply granting a player or creature the ability to cast liquid pain as an SLA, we're in homebrew territory, and then it does not matter what the rules say at all.Longtime lurker, Infrequent poster.
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2020-11-30, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: how does liquid pain work?
you forgot this part of rule compendium
Originally Posted by rule compendium p.9
what? there are tons and tons of ways of getting liquid pain as an sla. archmage for one. and theres a creature with liquid pain as an sla. wtf you talking about. its not homebrew.Last edited by newguydude1; 2020-11-30 at 01:41 AM.