Do the old Sorcerer subclasses really have better features?

[MaxWilson]

Synergizing with AoA is considerably outside of the scope of the analysis. The point what looking at it without considering the fact you have nearly double the number of spells other sorcerers have from a much larger list.

It's a decent ability. Not great, but not useless.

[Mitchellnotes]

I haven't read the whole discussion, but just wanted to pop in and say that I think comparing subclass abilities doesn't matter a whole lot to be honest. The power of the sorceror really comes from the ability to apply metamagic. Part of why divine sorcerer is usually considered so powerful is due to being able to apply metamagic to typically cleric only spells. Shadow sorc gets a bonus metamagic in the shadow hound. What kept the sorc in check power wise really was the spell limitations. Divine soul may have some really nifty tricks due to applying metamagic to a few additional spells, but they still inly have the same max spells.

Not only do the new classes provide for additional options for metamagic, but they can then swap those spells out (albeit with some limitations) to provide for much broader, targeted application of metamagic. That is where the power is with the subclasses. Everything else is just gravy.

Honestly, i dont mind this. I wish every subclass gave the associated spells (or at least one per spell level), especially the warlock, as it makes the subclass choice a little more flavorfull and diversifies spell options. Whats the point of having 300+ spells if people tend to choose the same 50ish?

[RSP]

With Sorc, particularly, it’s difficult to compare subclasses: the class as a whole is about specializing, and the subclasses fall in line with that. So, comparing DS to Draconic, is like comparing clerics and fighters: they’re designed to do different things.

If you want to play a blaster, play draconic. If you want Cleric spells, play DS.

The new subclasses are probably “better” than the old ones, if just comparing abilities on GitP forums, but, if you’re looking at how you want to play, each can excel in certain styles.

I’ll add, I think I value the Cleric list far more than the OP. The added spells known, the selection is very good, but that Cleric list has some very nice spells. The DS also has access to new 6+ level spells, which the new subclasses don’t (though, obviously, they have the ability to select more 6+ Sorc spells with the usual choices taken with the 10 additional subclass spells). Though, my table tends to spend a lot of time in higher tiers of play, so maybe that’s a factor in my thinking.

I’d also put Favored by the Gods as better than negating Adv/Disadvantage: pre-Roll vs post roll use really favors post roll: you’ll end up “wasting” the former about half the time, while that won’t be true for the vast majority of FbtG uses.

[KorvinStarmast]

"What's that? A fight going longer than 7 rounds? And you lost concentration on one of your spells!? Well I guess you'll be spamming Eldritch Blast the rest of the fight! HAHAHAHA Are you engaged yet!?"

You ever play a warlock? I enjoy mine.
Pushing stuff around the battlefield regardless of its size is (for me) fun. Push a frost giant off of the edge of a 250' cliff using 3 EBs that all hit ... priceless. The party had already done some damage, and as it worked out, when the Druid flew down there after the battle to see if the frost giant was still there, he confirmed that it was dead.

Anyway, I found warlock to be fun and I did pay attention to when to use spells and when to use other powers. I also was pretty alert to short rests; but since our Fighter recovers action surge and second wind on an SR, and the monk, ki, they were also fans.

Thanks to a friend trying something out, I discovered the fun of pulling stuff toward me, off of their flying mounts, with Arms of Hadar. Also fun; our martial characters appreciated me getting stuff to come back to us ...

Back to sorcerers: I wish our campaign with the shadow sorcerer was still going. I love my doggy.

if I try sorcerer again, I am very tempted by Aberrant mind. The concept looks decent. But I'll have to see what it looks like in play.

[Pex]

Would you accept that they would be -more- happy as a magical archer with a more diverse set of spell options that are not precluded by only 2 spell slots per combat?

Does spell points all of a sudden amount to too many options for these hypothetical "magical archer" players?

Sure, you have Misty Visions, but it still has verbal and somatic components; you can cast Silent Image at will, and while onlookers won't know for certain it's an illusion, they will know you have cast a spell. Testing if it's an illusion after seeing a wall sprout up from nowhere isn't out of the question (or at least compelling an investigation check). So it's hardly an in-combat option imho.

Additionally, the presence of repelling blast is still casting Eldritch Blast over and over again.

I really don't understand this push back over giving spell points to Warlocks; you can still play it as a two-shot shotgun if that's what you're hung up on, but now players who view it as an overwhelming hindrance have a reason to play the class.

That's nerfing illusions to uselessness. If a wizard casts Wall of Stone do the bad guys check to see if it's an illusion first because it was obvious the wizard cast a spell and it came out of nowhere, or do they readily accept it's a real wall and act accordingly?

The point of Repelling Blast is to make Eldritch Blast fun to use that you want to cast it.

I don't object to warlocks using spellpoints. I object to the notion warlocks are terrible as is.

[Asmerv]

Would you accept that they would be -more- happy as a magical archer with a more diverse set of spell options that are not precluded by only 2 spell slots per combat?

Does spell points all of a sudden amount to too many options for these hypothetical "magical archer" players?

Sure, you have Misty Visions, but it still has verbal and somatic components; you can cast Silent Image at will, and while onlookers won't know for certain it's an illusion, they will know you have cast a spell. Testing if it's an illusion after seeing a wall sprout up from nowhere isn't out of the question (or at least compelling an investigation check). So it's hardly an in-combat option imho.

Additionally, the presence of repelling blast is still casting Eldritch Blast over and over again.

I really don't understand this push back over giving spell points to Warlocks; you can still play it as a two-shot shotgun if that's what you're hung up on, but now players who view it as an overwhelming hindrance have a reason to play the class.

The dissatisfaction comes from expecting a Warlock to play more similarly to other casters, and your solution is to make Warlock play more similarly to other casters. There's nothing wrong with that if that's what you want.

All I'm saying is I think the ideal solution would be to have Warlock offer up something unique and powerful instead, so that just having two spells slots still feel awesome. Instead of making your shotgun behave more like a wizard's rifle, make it be a very satisfying shotgun to use when something is actually in range.

For example, why doesn't Hunger of Hadar scale and scale hard? It's a very thematic spells for many Warlocks, but does not interact with their unique way of casting at all. What if it produced a truly devastating effect if cast at 5th level, something the wizard and the sorcerer couldn't do? Instead, your 5th level spells are pretty much the same as the wizards, or worse because you upcast Fireball to 5th instead.

[MaxWilson]

For example, why doesn't Hunger of Hadar scale and scale hard? It's a very thematic spells for many Warlocks, but does not interact with their unique way of casting at all. What if it produced a truly devastating effect if cast at 5th level, something the wizard and the sorcerer couldn't do? Instead, your 5th level spells are pretty much the same as the wizards, or worse because you upcast Fireball to 5th instead.

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

[Asisreo1]

"What's that? A fight going longer than 7 rounds? And you lost concentration on one of your spells!? Well I guess you'll be spamming Eldritch Blast the rest of the fight! HAHAHAHA Are you engaged yet!?"

NTY

What's the wizard doing? I don't know how impactful 1st-level spells can be during a fight from 5th level up.

Somehow casting magic missile for a guaranteed 10.5 damage for limited resources isn't as impressive as casting a 19 damage eldritch blast that expends nothing. Even needing a roll of 10 or higher makes Eldritch Blast roughly equivalent. This also doesn't consider the pact boons that a warlock might have.

Its true that if you don't like a more repetitive action set then Warlocks aren't quite as diverse, but not everyone's lining up for too many options they have to wade through in every fight.

[Gtdead]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

Well, it's also easy to make an optional rule where any damage dealing spell that doesn't have scaling in it's description gains an a single additional die of damage per level upcasted. It doesn't really upset the balance so much, compared to adding a feature that completely alters the basic gameplay of the class and addresses it's main weakness (forced to upcast low level spells with poor or no scaling).

It's not like the majority of scalable spells are any better than that. There are only a few of them that follow different patterns and it's by necessity because they are things like shadowblade and spiritual weapon.

[Kane0]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

On the other side of that coin though, fixing up the spells makes them more desirable for everyone so could be effort well spent.

[stoutstien]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

To be fair HoH not scaling seems like a huge over being a warlock exclusive spell.

[Asmerv]

It's easier to give warlocks spell points than to rewrite a hundred or so spells to support better upcasting. One takes a couple of lines in the house rules doc, the other would be... dozens of pages I guess.

No arguments here on ease of implementation. I feel the same way in the end on adding an extended spell list to Sorcerers - it's not the ideal solution but it's a much more pragmatic one.

Still, I hope that somehow I can make Warlock do the whole 'I tore a hole in the fabric of reality through this terrible unspeakable power bestowed on me by an incomprehensible sanity-shattering entity' and have it amount to more than a mechanical tickle and not 'I did what the wizard did, except I dont have the option to do it again'

I know I'm dreaming but eh.

[MaxWilson]

Well, it's also easy to make an optional rule where any damage dealing spell that doesn't have scaling in it's description gains an a single additional die of damage per level upcasted. It doesn't really upset the balance so much, compared to adding a feature that completely alters the basic gameplay of the class and addresses it's main weakness (forced to upcast low level spells with poor or no scaling).

It's not like the majority of scalable spells are any better than that. There are only a few of them that follow different patterns and it's by necessity because they are things like shadowblade and spiritual weapon.

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots points address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

[ZRN]

With Sorc, particularly, it’s difficult to compare subclasses: the class as a whole is about specializing, and the subclasses fall in line with that. So, comparing DS to Draconic, is like comparing clerics and fighters: they’re designed to do different things.

If you want to play a blaster, play draconic. If you want Cleric spells, play DS.

The new subclasses are probably “better” than the old ones, if just comparing abilities on GitP forums, but, if you’re looking at how you want to play, each can excel in certain styles.

I think the issue is that the old sorcerer subclass bonuses were mostly not very useful (except the DS spell list), while the new ones address one of the biggest overall weaknesses of the class - so even if you kind of want to play, say, a storm sorcerer, it's hard not to think, "I could just play an Aberrant Mind and take a couple lightning spells and ALSO have a bunch of other cool spells at my disposal." You miss out on a few really mediocre abilities and instead get double the spells from levels 1-10? Quite tempting!

[Asmerv]

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

This is exactly it. Armor of Agathys scales in cool, powerful way that feels quadratically powerful as opposed to linear, for example. All Warlock spells should ideally do the same, because you don't have the option to cast it at its appropriate level to get the most bang for buck (unless you are using spell points as mentioned).

I'd prefer the former but I'd take the latter over nothing any day.

[MrCharlie]

I've seen comments saying that part of the balance of the new subclasses is that they have lesser features than the old subclasses in exchange for the bonus spell list. Today I would like to put that argument to the test by comparing Clockwork Soul to the rest of the Sorcerer subclasses (without taking into account the 14th and 18th level features which most players will never get).
Clockwork Soul has Clockwork Magic, Restore Balance, and Bastion of Law. These are 3 features, none of which is a ribbon, and one of them is crazy good (Clockwork Magic). However, I will not compare any of the features to Clockwork Magic because it would obviously be better than all of them. I will only compare features with Restore Balance and Bastion of Law and mention Clockwork Magic when appropriate to judge a feature's usefulness.

Draconic Sorcerer
Dragon Ancestor - Mostly a ribbon. Influences Elemental Affinity later.
Draconic Resilience - Typically a great feature, but then you notice Clockwork Soul can get Mage Armor and Shield on his spell list for free (sure, you have to waste a 1st level slot to cast Mage Armor, but it's just a 1st level), the natural armor you get from this feature isn't looking that great anymore, when it used to be considered fantastic partly for saving you a single spell known. That leaves us with the +1 HP per level, which is good for a squishy class, but removing disadvantage/advantage from saving throws 2-6 times a day is better.
Elemental Affinity - Big blasty spells! This is a fantastic feature for blasters, which I would say is definitely better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 worse, 1 better.

Wild Magic Sorcerer
Wild Magic Surge - A 1/20 chance for a Wild Surge upon casting a spell is basically a ribbon.
Tides of Chaos - Ah, Tides of Chaos. If your DM is favorable towards you and triggers the surge often, or even all the time, this feature is fantastic. If he doesn't at all, this feature sucks. Weird feature to rate, to be honest.
Bend Luck - A decent feature, if somewhat expensive. 1d4 reduction from saving throws is great, of course, but the price is quite high. I would be hard-pressed to say that this is definitely better than Bastion of Law, a similarly expensive option, but one that uniquely lets you nova combat-preperation. For the sake of being extra fair and avoiding arguments, let's say that this is better than Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 1 schrodinger's feature, 1 better.

Storm Sorcerer
Wind Speaker - Ribbon.
Tempestuous Magic - 10 feet of movement as a bonus action upon casting a leveled spell (with no AoO) is definitely worse than Restore Balance in my mind.
Heart of the Storm - A mediocre close-range AoE is not a good feature for a Sorcerer and is definitely not as good as Bastion of Law.

Summary:
1 ribbon, 2 worse.

Shadow Sorcerer
Eyes of the Dark - Hey, that's pretty good. The Darkvision is great, but the free Darkness doesn't do much for us now that we can get 10 spells known as Clockwork Soul.
Strength of the Grave - OK feature. Might save you from death, but probably won't if you're facing high CR enemies with big hits. Restore Balance is better in my opinion.
Hound of Ill Omen - Free metamagic, and it's an improved Heighten. Better than Bastion of Law for sure.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-as-good-as-before, 1 worse, 1 better

[U]Divine Soul Sorcerer[/U
Divine Magic - Oh boy. OK, so this one is a little tricky, but only because I think a lot of people overestimate how good opening a new spell list for a class with 15 spells known is. Does it open up a new and unique playstyle for Sorcerers? Definitely! Does it make this subclass objectively better than the rest? Definitely not. It also gives a single spell known, which is paltry in comparison to what Clockwork Magic gives us.
Favored by the Gods - Good, but I rate this to be equivalent to Restore Balance if not worse.
Empowered Healing - OK. The 5 feet limitation is quite harsh, and it also only works on a single ally, so you can't empower mass cure wounds and the like. Bastion of Law is at least equivalent if not outright better. To be extra fair, let's say equivalent.

Summary:
1 not-a-ribbon-but-not-incredible-either, 1 worse, 1 equivalent

Conclusion:
The only subclasses with somewhat better features (when not comparing to Clockwork Magic) are Shadow and Divine Soul Draconic, and even then: it's arguable. Even if you concede that they are better, it would only be by a small margin in my opinion. Thus, I believe the argument that the old subclasses have better features, even when not comparing them to a bonus spell list, does not hold water.

Some features are significantly better at higher levels than you're taking into account, though. Also, clockworks low level features are pretty bad-bastion of law is kinduve awful, it's not a very efficient use of points except maybe as a 1 sorcery point expense. The high level features are actually quite good-Trace of order, among other things, lets you auto-make most concentration saves (A good sorcerer will be reaching that point anyway for DC 10, but DC 20 is 40 points of trigger damage, which is actually fairly high-most attacks don't get higher than that). Clockwork Cavalcade is probably on the level of an 8th level spell, being worse than mass heal but still doing a good chunk of healing and acting as a mass dispel magic, which is basically a unique effect. Restore Balance in general is basically too rare to matter, as you really want to use it on a saving throw-not an attack roll-to be relevant power wise to other abilities.

Otherwise, to go through your analysis point by point-

Draconic overall has better features if you blast, and most arcane casters blast at least once in a day.

Wild Magic is so highly variable that there isn't really a way to analyze it, but if you made it proficiency times a day for tides of chaos and wild magic surge it's better than clockwork, and I think that proficiency bonus number of wild magic surges is as good a guestimate for low levels as anything. Bend luck is also much better than bastion of law.

Storms level 6 feature isn't actually bad, and has just enough range that you aren't sitting in melee all the time. Combined with bonus action disengage storm sorcerer is pretty solid, and scales better than draconic at high level. It's more or less a good comparison to draconic, but worse at low levels and better at high levels.

Shadows reaction ability is actually better than you are giving it credit for even at high level-a lot of high CR creatures deal their damage over multiple attacks, and each individual one might only be a 50-50 shot on the save (15 ish damage). Given that you can keep attempting it until you succeed, it actually does help. I rank it as worse than restore balance though, because being reduced to zero is hopefully a rare occasion, and not being reduced to 0 on this hit isn't always enough to save you. That said, at low level it's better than clockworks abilities.

Divine soul is much, much, much much better than you are ranking it on all aspects except empowered healing. To the degree that it remains competitive with clockwork without the extra spells. There are a few cleric spells that metmagic break into bits-clockwork gets one of them, Aid, but not Death Ward. At it's height, divine soul can cast an Xth level extended aid and extended death ward on the entire party, giving everyone something like 20-30 extra HP and 1 free recovery, at no cost.

You have to know exactly what tricks work and how to do them, but if you know which spells you can break from the cleric list it's very, very good. Favored by the gods is also better than restore balance when it works-2d4 to a save is pretty massive, and disadvantage on saves isn't that common. Further, you are likely to get several uses of favored by the gods as it recharges on short rest. You get more restore balance at high level, but its less likely to ever be used on saving throws, and favored by the gods only works when you need it.

End result, I rank favored by the gods as clearly better than restore balance at low level, until restore balance is significantly more common.

Empowered healing is actually trash because the good divine soul spells either don't heal or their amount of healing is irrelevant or not variable to dice. Heal is a decent divine soul spell because you can twin it but empowered healing does nothing, healing word is amazing but the dice are too low to be worth empowering, and every other spell that heals is either the same or not good on your class. Oh, or the 1/turn and 5 foot reach restraints means you can't effectively use it.

But in general, divine soul is a high level subclass, as most of the long rest shenanigan's that you can pull work best once you are in tier 3. It's just that clockworks features (other than spell list) are also high level features, so divine soul compares favorably.

And this is the real trick-clockworks features are great at high level, and its spell list is best at low level (although it's just amazing regardless). Combine the two, and clockwork (and aberrant) are generally always superior-unless you know enough about spells to know exactly which spells are ever worth casting at all levels, and even then 16 spells known isn't enough to hit the best spells in DnD watchlist, just graze it.

Although, as an aside, Restore Balance is actually extremely strong if you have a rogue in the party, because it lets them ignore disadvantage and still sneak attack (or at least should, RAW). This helps the Rogue attack the right person more than it helps them get sneak attack-there are usually enough targets to get sneak attack on someone, but certain targets should be prioritized and restore balance helps the rogue do that.

[Asisreo1]

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

There's 2 points I would like to make in reference to the upcasting.

The first is that I believe some spells are meant to be forgotten (mechanically). Hunger of Hadar comes around at 5th level. It doesn't auto upcast until level 7+, which makes it harder to justify using a 4th-level slot on a 3rd-level spell for only emergencies.
So I believe the spell was meant to be forgotten somewhere in levels 7-8. For Goolocks, the obvious advancement would be to learn Evard's Black Tentacles in replacement to Hunger of Hadar. There are other good patron spells to grab as well. I think non-Upcasting spells are meant to be stepping stones for Warlocks rather than staples.

Secondly, most people don't give upcasted damage spells their dues. When a fireball increases by 1d6 damage per spell slot, their total expected damage raises by 4d6. So a 5th-level fireball does an additional 8d6 expected damage. Now, a Cone of Cold actually does still outpace it, although a Cone of Cold doesn't have the luxury of being usable more than twice a day. That's probably for the best. Having Fireball gives you the ability to use it at a lower level, Having Cone of Cold gives you higher damage at its strongest, and having both gives you better efficiency with your slot levels at the expense of spells known.

[MaxWilson]

Some features are significantly better at higher levels than you're taking into account, though. Also, clockworks low level features are pretty bad-bastion of law is kinduve awful, it's not a very efficient use of points except maybe as a 1 sorcery point expense.

It's not spell point-efficient, but the action economy and duration are terrific. It stacks with temp HP and Aid, and unlike Shield it works against crits and can be cast on others. For the price of a 3rd level spell you can add ~22 HP to someone in the party, until the next long rest, and they don't have to use it until they actually are in danger of going down (AFB but IIRC they can even save it until after they come back up from a Healing Word and are at ~1 HP, to keep them from going down again).

Like most nova effects, it's expensive, but it's a decent defensive nova for tough fights. Overall rating: decent, better than it looks at first.

[Gtdead]

That's precisely why it would be so much work to write the spells--there are very few spells which actually have good scaling, so warlocks today wind up either casting 5th level spells and the rare lower-level spells that upcast well (leaving them with a very narrow selection) or feeling bad about "wasting" their power and falling behind everyone who isn't forced to upcast. That's precisely the problem which spell slots address for warlocks, and it feels good.

N.b. Fireball isn't a spell that upcasts well--casting a 10d6 Fireball at 5th level still feels bad. Most of the Tasha's spells upcast well though, and so does Summon Greater Demon, and IMO so do Hold Person and Command (Fiendlock only), although Hold Person is generally muuuch better for bad guys than for PCs.

Are you suggesting a rebalancing of upcasted spells? I wasn't entertaining that idea at all. I'm aware of Warlock's problem with pact magic. Pretty much any spell that isn't persistent, like conjured weapons, spirit guardians and the like, scales horribly. The only spell that has some upcasting potential is actually scorching ray, and this comes with strings attached (fire damage). Also warlock loses out on Shadowblade due to poor interaction with his hex warrior/pact of the blade feature, doesn't have access to spirit guardians or some other good persistent AoE.

However I don't really see this as the main problem, because after all there are some good selections as far as the "kit" is concerned, even if there are some inefficiencies here and there.
Armor of Agathys
Synaptic Static
Shadow of Moil
Tasha's Summons
Banishment
Dimension Door
Wall of Fire (Celestial/Fiend)
Wall of Stone (Genie)
Evard's (GOO)
Banishing Smite (Hexblade)

Sadly it's really inefficient for the class to use spells like Misty Step or Shield but I think he can make do with these. Warlock isn't about versatility anyway. Of course that's not a good reason for having ****ty spells in the game but that can be said for any class really.

[samcifer]

Also, thanks to the new Eldritch Adept feat granting access to Devil's Sight, you no longer need to be a shadow sorc or mc 2 levels of warlock for the advantage in Darkness tactic. You can now do it using a feat and one of the two main draws (arguably) of playing a shadow sorc over a different mc are now effectively mute imo.

[Gignere]

What's the wizard doing? I don't know how impactful 1st-level spells can be during a fight from 5th level up.

Somehow casting magic missile for a guaranteed 10.5 damage for limited resources isn't as impressive as casting a 19 damage eldritch blast that expends nothing. Even needing a roll of 10 or higher makes Eldritch Blast roughly equivalent. This also doesn't consider the pact boons that a warlock might have.

Its true that if you don't like a more repetitive action set then Warlocks aren't quite as diverse, but not everyone's lining up for too many options they have to wade through in every fight.

I Tasha’d a Shadow Dragon to death. It failed the save while it was flying and fell over 500 feet.

[Snowbluff]

It's not spell point-efficient, but the action economy and duration are terrific. It stacks with temp HP and Aid, and unlike Shield it works against crits and can be cast on others. For the price of a 3rd level spell you can add ~22 HP to someone in the party, until the next long rest, and they don't have to use it until they actually are in danger of going down (AFB but IIRC they can even save it until after they come back up from a Healing Word and are at ~1 HP, to keep them from going down again).

Like most nova effects, it's expensive, but it's a decent defensive nova for tough fights. Overall rating: decent, better than it looks at first.

Also, thanks to the new Eldritch Adept feat granting access to Devil's Sight, you no longer need to be a shadow sorc or mc 2 levels of warlock for the advantage in Darkness tactic. You can now do it using a feat and one of the two main draws (arguably) of playing a shadow sorc over a different mc are now effectively mute imo.

Well, if you're spending a feat on that I would say that by the time you have a slot free you really shouldn't be spending it on a trick 4 spell levels old when there is a perfectly good Greater Invisibility right there.

You could be taking inspiring leader instead and not wiping out what is in the best case scenario probably 1/4 of your daily spell points to give some HP.

[MaxWilson]

Are you suggesting a rebalancing of upcasted spells? I wasn't entertaining that idea at all. I'm aware of Warlock's problem with pact magic. Pretty much any spell that isn't persistent, like conjured weapons, spirit guardians and the like, scales horribly. The only spell that has some upcasting potential is actually scorching ray, and this comes with strings attached (fire damage). Also warlock loses out on Shadowblade due to poor interaction with his hex warrior/pact of the blade feature, doesn't have access to spirit guardians or some other good persistent AoE.

However I don't really see this as the main problem, because after all there are some good selections as far as the "kit" is concerned, even if there are some inefficiencies here and there.
Armor of Agathys
Synaptic Static
Shadow of Moil
Tasha's Summons
Banishment
Dimension Door
Wall of Fire (Celestial/Fiend)
Wall of Stone (Genie)
Evard's (GOO)
Banishing Smite (Hexblade)

Sadly it's really inefficient for the class to use spells like Misty Step or Shield but I think he can make do with these. Warlock isn't about versatility anyway. Of course that's not a good reason for having ****ty spells in the game but that can be said for any class really.

No, I'm trying to avoid rebalancing upcasted spells because it would be a massive change to 5E's design. I'm trying to make warlocks feel less crummy without rebalancing the spells.

...Let me rephrase that, becuase to be quite honest I've already done this in my own games long ago. I'm trying to explain to the forum why I like the results. Even if everyone hates the idea of warlock spell points it's not actually going to affect my game, and I have no intention of rebalancing all the spells.

Anyway, here's my thoughts on your list:

Armor of Agathys: okay. Fun to cast. Not actually that great as a 5th level spell but at least it doesn't feel like a waste.

Synaptic Static: sure, fine.

Shadow of Moil: feels a little bit bad to cast as a 5th level spell because it's really only 4th, even though it's good for 4th.

Tasha's Summons: not as good as Summon Greater Demon for upcasting. The 5th level breakpoint feels very awkward for these spells, in contrast to Conjure Animals where 5th level feels terrific. (But non-Vadalis warlocks don't have Conjure Animals.)

Banishment: worse than Wall of Force, arguably worse than Wall of Stone, but still upcasts well so not a complete waste. Relatively fine.

Dimension Door: feels bad, underpowered for 4th.

Wall of Fire (Celestial/Fiend): not absolutely terrible, but feels kind of bad to go from 5d8 for 4th to 6d8 for 5th. Diminishing returns there.

Wall of Stone (Genie): fine if you've got it and are in an appropriate terrain.

Evard's (GOO): feels a little bit bad to cast as a 5th level spell because it's really only 4th, even though it's good for 4th.

Banishing Smite (Hexblade): all right I guess, if you're into that kind of thing.

Obviously 4th level spells like Evard's Black Tentacles don't feel as bad to "waste" 5th level slots on as Mirror Image, Blink, Shield, etc. do. And I agree with your larger point, that there are enough good spells to make a warlock keep up with fighters/etc. even if we just look strictly at 5th level spells + Summon Greater Demon. I just don't like how it feels for warlock to have only a dozen-ish "good"-feeling spells to choose from.

You could be taking inspiring leader instead and not wiping out what is in the best case scenario probably 1/4 of your daily spell points to give some HP.

Sounds like you're confusing two different conversations. Clockwork Mages don't get the option of taking Inspiring Leader as their 6th level feature. And while Inspiring Leader is great, as I said before it doesn't stack with temp HP. That's more relevant than ever with Artillerists and especially Twilight Clerics in Tasha's.

[Gtdead]

No, I'm trying to avoid rebalancing upcasted spells because it would be a massive change to 5E's design. I'm trying to make warlocks feel less crummy without rebalancing the spells.

...Let me rephrase that, becuase to be quite honest I've already done this in my own games long ago. I'm trying to explain to the forum why I like the results. Even if everyone hates the idea of warlock spell points it's not actually going to affect my game, and I have no intention of rebalancing all the spells.

I see, I probably missed that you were trying to make a point about the warlock spell points system and took the quoted comment at face value, meaning the ease of creating a rule that will attempt to plug a hole compared to rebalancing something.

My general opinion is that spell points are a better system than spellslots anyway and I'd like to play all the casters with this variant rule. It's not a matter of power or versatility. I just think it's more intuitive. So by all means give the warlocks spell points, I'd be perfectly fine with it if I were to play in your game. If it fixes a problem, all the more reason to do it.

[MrCharlie]

It's not spell point-efficient, but the action economy and duration are terrific. It stacks with temp HP and Aid, and unlike Shield it works against crits and can be cast on others. For the price of a 3rd level spell you can add ~22 HP to someone in the party, until the next long rest, and they don't have to use it until they actually are in danger of going down (AFB but IIRC they can even save it until after they come back up from a Healing Word and are at ~1 HP, to keep them from going down again).

Like most nova effects, it's expensive, but it's a decent defensive nova for tough fights. Overall rating: decent, better than it looks at first.

See, my main concern with that is that I can usually nova pretty effectively with a sorcerer regardless by twinning spells or quickening them, it just costs a ton of points. Yes, the action economy is the best possible, but I value a sorcery point too much to spend them like that. I'll try it more though and see if I like it after more testing in light of your feedback.

As an aside; I've heard this proposed before and want your take, as you clearly know your way around warlocks-if warlocks didn't get Mystic Arcanum but instead had pact magic that scaled up to 9th level, how would this effect their balance?

[Asisreo1]

I Tasha’d a Shadow Dragon to death. It failed the save while it was flying and fell over 500 feet.

It must've been weakened or you've gotten really lucky since 20d6 isn't enough to kill most dragons short of wyrmlings.

It sounds like that was dangerous. I assume you were also flying since Tasha's doesn't have the range to effect anything 500ft away from it.

Actually, I have no idea how you could even find yourself in such a situation without alot of luck and alot of risk already.

[MrCharlie]

It must've been weakened or you've gotten really lucky since 20d6 isn't enough to kill most dragons short of wyrmlings.

It sounds like that was dangerous. I assume you were also flying since Tasha's doesn't have the range to effect anything 500ft away from it.

Actually, I have no idea how you could even find yourself in such a situation without alot of luck and alot of risk already.

A lot of DMs ignore the 20d6 damage cap on account of it being A. Stupid B. Unrealistic and C. There to spare players from gravity, which is a harsh mistress and should be respected.

Getting in range to actually use Tasha's like that is another issue entirely. I suppose something like invoke duplicity could pull it off with some prep work.

[RSP]

I think the issue is that the old sorcerer subclass bonuses were mostly not very useful (except the DS spell list), while the new ones address one of the biggest overall weaknesses of the class - so even if you kind of want to play, say, a storm sorcerer, it's hard not to think, "I could just play an Aberrant Mind and take a couple lightning spells and ALSO have a bunch of other cool spells at my disposal." You miss out on a few really mediocre abilities and instead get double the spells from levels 1-10? Quite tempting!

I meant mechanical specialization, though, if playing for the RP, and sticking to the descriptions, that could certainly be a reason to play a particular subclass.

Storm is going to be bad no matter what, I imagine, but Draconic will have the best abilities to blast, DS to buff/melee, Wild to be, well, wild and randomly powerful/ineffective.

Aberrant will probably be the best at out of combat, and illusions. It’s an interesting subclass as it gets free Subtle for the subclass spells; which makes taking Subtle feel weaker, but you’ll still want it for non-subclass spells.

Clockwork is probably a decent melee subclass, and both it and the Aberrant will be the most versatile. But I don’t really know how added versatility affects a class designed to specialize. It’s certainly a plus for those subclasses, but, as I said, I’m not sure it’s as straightforward a comparison as the OP suggests.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

I meant mechanical specialization, though, if playing for the RP, and sticking to the descriptions, that could certainly be a reason to play a particular subclass.

Storm is going to be bad no matter what, I imagine, but Draconic will have the best abilities to blast, DS to buff/melee, Wild to be, well, wild and randomly powerful/ineffective.

Aberrant will probably be the best at out of combat, and illusions. It’s an interesting subclass as it gets free Subtle for the subclass spells; which makes taking Subtle feel weaker, but you’ll still want it for non-subclass spells.

Clockwork is probably a decent melee subclass, and both it and the Aberrant will be the most versatile. But I don’t really know how added versatility affects a class designed to specialize. It’s certainly a plus for those subclasses, but, as I said, I’m not sure it’s as straightforward a comparison as the OP suggests.

I'm totally on board with what you are saying here. Good generalization about improving versatility for specialists. It seems like there was an attempt to appease players who didn't like the sorcerer, and reading the threads on the subject I guess it worked to a point. Still not sure those people who didn't like sorcerer before will be happy about playing a character that feels even closer to a Wizard (but not as good). And for those of us who liked the specialist sorcerers the old ones are still probably more to our tastes.

[Gtdead]

At lvl 10, where Aberrant can get Synaptic Static in his list, he becomes a really mean blaster. Damage wise Dragon has the potential to do more, but I think Synaptic Statics and EBTs are more impactful spells and have better damage types (and of course the very valuable INT save). Considering that Aberrant can downcast them through converting slots, he is going to have a lot of firepower.

For a comparison, at lvl 10, Draconic will have 3 fireballs, 3 walls of fire and 2 synaptic statics.
Aberrant will have 9 synaptic statics or 11 evards autosubtled with his lvl 3-4-5 slots.

Through these 2 spells, you can cast one synaptic static and one evard's per combat for 5 encounters, which would probably take care of the adventuring day by themselves, and you still have autosubtled suggestions, telepathy and high cha for out of combat. This is a lot of control and the damage is more than fair. And all these in addition to the filthy cheap and twinnable Tasha's Hideous Laughter and Dissonant Whispers that he can use pretty much at will past lvl 6.