Steady Aim is amazing

[Mr Adventurer]

Steady Aim is probably the best thing that happened to Rogue in this edition. It went from a "let's hope DM lets me Hide in combat/stealth mechanics are paramount/hope the party has a good meatshield that enemies want to attack" class to a very reliable one at what it does.

??? What are you taking about? I've been playing a rogue for 7 levels so far and haven't been relying on Advantage in the slightest.

And even then, the conditions you list are extremely common in typical encounters. "DM follows the rules". "There's melee combat".

So the title of this thread really threw me off, I assumed that you were going to be talking about aiming while mounted (on your stead)

Steed.

True, but losing the action to casting Mage Hand in combat is rough. If you have the ability to pre-cast then it makes sense.

Kinda makes me wish that telekinetic feat increased the duration of mage hand too.

Things like this are why I feel like Mage Hand for ATs (and things like Disguise Self cast via Mask of Many Faces) should have a permanent duration. Or, change the casting time to a bonus action, and allow you to manipulate the hand using the same bonus action.

The absolute number 1 handicap on the Arcane Trickster is the action cost of activating the Hand. My favourite theory crafted workaround is now Bladesinger 6, but that's a hefty multiclass.

Disagree that at-will should equal permanent, though.

[Sception]

6 levels /is/ a hefty multiclass, but arcane trickster / bladesinger was a popular multiclass already. And a proper one, too, rewarding more lengthy investments in both sides instead of just the 1 to 3 level dips that are more common in 5e multiclassing.

[Morty]

Scout could be rough, they have a lot of mobility style abilities that get turned off by this. But they actually also have a reaction movement which is still viable. So... eh. Maybe a wash?

Being able to book it as a reaction whenever an enemy ends their turn next to you sounds like it'd play pretty well with steady aim.

[Segev]

It also doesn’t obligate DMs to have random covers around to accommodate the rogue. Before steady aim my first question in combat or in a new area was invariably is there cover? So there is less disruption with the DM to tell his story.

??? What are you taking about? I've been playing a rogue for 7 levels so far and haven't been relying on Advantage in the slightest.

You're not sneak attacking much? --oh, wait, as I wrote that, I remembered that they can do it off of allies being adjacent, too. Makes find familiar even more useful to the Arcane Trickster. (I am amused by the mild cheese of a tiny, tiny spider being within five feet and giving the rogue the ability to sneak attack, and arguing whether the target should realize that the spider is actually a threat worth wasting an action to attack and kill.)

The absolute number 1 handicap on the Arcane Trickster is the action cost of activating the Hand. My favourite theory crafted workaround is now Bladesinger 6, but that's a hefty multiclass.

Disagree that at-will should equal permanent, though.

To be fair, nothing stops any spellcaster from casting a cantrip every minute. Spellcasting doesn't automatically break stealth, even, if it doesn't involve attacking something. The biggest arguments against it are that it is something that would likely lapse as the caster forgets about it over time (countered by creating some sort of reminder - perhaps your mage hand carries a copper coin that drops if it winks out - or by calling it a "nervous tic" he has developed into a habit), and how annoying it would be for the rest of the party if the caster keeps, for example, making the same gesture and saying, "Mage hand," every 30s to a minute.

Of course, in mage hand's specific case, there's a work-around to the "annoying tic" aspect: the Telekinetic feat removes components. It's a purely mental action. So now all the caster has to do is remember to think to renew it every minute. The only annoying thing would be if he's using the coin-reminder trick, as he'll likely drop the coin every few minutes when he gets distracted from re-upping it once a minute every minute.

[Gignere]

You're not sneak attacking much? --oh, wait, as I wrote that, I remembered that they can do it off of allies being adjacent, too. Makes find familiar even more useful to the Arcane Trickster. (I am amused by the mild cheese of a tiny, tiny spider being within five feet and giving the rogue the ability to sneak attack, and arguing whether the target should realize that the spider is actually a threat worth wasting an action to attack and kill.)

To be fair, nothing stops any spellcaster from casting a cantrip every minute. Spellcasting doesn't automatically break stealth, even, if it doesn't involve attacking something. The biggest arguments against it are that it is something that would likely lapse as the caster forgets about it over time (countered by creating some sort of reminder - perhaps your mage hand carries a copper coin that drops if it winks out - or by calling it a "nervous tic" he has developed into a habit), and how annoying it would be for the rest of the party if the caster keeps, for example, making the same gesture and saying, "Mage hand," every 30s to a minute.

Of course, in mage hand's specific case, there's a work-around to the "annoying tic" aspect: the Telekinetic feat removes components. It's a purely mental action. So now all the caster has to do is remember to think to renew it every minute. The only annoying thing would be if he's using the coin-reminder trick, as he'll likely drop the coin every few minutes when he gets distracted from re-upping it once a minute every minute.

They should have made mage hand for the AT last 10 minutes or an hour, as well as removed all components from the casting for the AT. It really breaks immersion that you can be sneaky while casting a spell that requires V.

Like if it was just somatic you can hide it with sleight of hand, but speaking in a normal voice to cast a spell, I know RAW maybe stealth doesn’t break but speaking in a normal voice people should know you are there.

[nickl_2000]

They should have made mage hand for the AT last 10 minutes or an hour, as well as removed all components from the casting for the AT. It really breaks immersion that you can be sneaky while casting a spell that requires V.

Like if it was just somatic you can hide it with sleight of hand, but speaking in a normal voice to cast a spell, I know RAW maybe stealth doesn’t break but speaking in a normal voice people should know you are there.

Or simply made it so that you can Cast mage hand with cunning action as well as move/use a pre-existing one.

[Segev]

They should have made mage hand for the AT last 10 minutes or an hour, as well as removed all components from the casting for the AT. It really breaks immersion that you can be sneaky while casting a spell that requires V.

Like if it was just somatic you can hide it with sleight of hand, but speaking in a normal voice to cast a spell, I know RAW maybe stealth doesn’t break but speaking in a normal voice people should know you are there.

Isn’t the exact wording a “firm tone” or such? I don’t think it actually says anything about volume, but I’m away from book right now.

The key point here, I think, is that you can’t really cast a spell without people who can see or hear you recognizing that you’re doing something, but if they can’t see you they don’t auto my heart or notice that you’re casting. It’s not replacing Subtle Spell because Subtle lets you do it in plain sight while this requires you to be hidden. But you can keep hidden while doing it.

Maybe the level nine power of an AT should be extending the duration of mage hand to 8 hours, instead of it in addition to the ability to give yourself advantage on attacks against one creature with it. Which is only so-so as a feature, at best.

[Gignere]

Isn’t the exact wording a “firm tone” or such? I don’t think it actually says anything about volume, but I’m away from book right now.

The key point here, I think, is that you can’t really cast a spell without people who can see or hear you recognizing that you’re doing something, but if they can’t see you they don’t auto my heart or notice that you’re casting. It’s not replacing Subtle Spell because Subtle lets you do it in plain sight while this requires you to be hidden. But you can keep hidden while doing it.

Maybe the level nine power of an AT should be extending the duration of mage hand to 8 hours, instead of it in addition to the ability to give yourself advantage on attacks against one creature with it. Which is only so-so as a feature, at best.

I have never gotten away or let anyone when I DM say I whisper my spell so no one knows I’m casting it. I think the firm tone implies that it is audible, like a normal conversation.

[Segev]

I have never gotten away or let anyone when I DM say I whisper my spell so no one knows I’m casting it. I think the firm tone implies that it is audible, like a normal conversation.

It doesn’t, though. I can whisper firmly. Anybody whose sat next to their siblings in church and been on either side of an argument when they have to keep from upsetting parents by being caught arguing has experienced others doing it, or done it, themselves.

At worst, I might require the caster to roll Stealth again to see if they keep their voice down sufficiently.

The rules are pretty clear about what automatically breaks stealth. Casting a spell is not on that list. (Though some spells involve things that are.)

[Mr Adventurer]

You're not sneak attacking much? --oh, wait, as I wrote that, I remembered that they can do it off of allies being adjacent, too.

Yes, this is the main way I get Sneak Attack; I believe it's supposed to be the most common.

To be fair, nothing stops any spellcaster from casting a cantrip every minute. Spellcasting doesn't automatically break stealth, even, if it doesn't involve attacking something. The biggest arguments against it are that it is something that would likely lapse as the caster forgets about it over time (countered by creating some sort of reminder - perhaps your mage hand carries a copper coin that drops if it winks out - or by calling it a "nervous tic" he has developed into a habit), and how annoying it would be for the rest of the party if the caster keeps, for example, making the same gesture and saying, "Mage hand," every 30s to a minute.

I've posted before about how I don't think this is appropriate - in discussion with you even, I think. I won't revisit all that as I'm not sure it'd be thread-relevant for me to do so... Suffice it to say I really hate such a mechanistic view of the game world and find the proposed narratives a poor band-aid.

Of course, in mage hand's specific case, there's a work-around to the "annoying tic" aspect: the Telekinetic feat removes components.

Absolutely love Telekinetic feat for all the AT problems it solves on top of being super cool in its own right.

Or simply made it so that you can Cast mage hand with cunning action as well as move/use a pre-existing one.

The latter would be my preferred houserule as an AT player. It requires so little change to the text: just change "control" to "cast the spell or control" in the last line of the Mage Hand Legerdemain feature.

I have never gotten away or let anyone when I DM say I whisper my spell so no one knows I’m casting it. I think the firm tone implies that it is audible, like a normal conversation.

This is how I rule it - primarily because I am not in favour of giving spellcasters additional breaks. Spellcasting is magical and obvious - chanting and throwing arcane hand gestures and such - until you have a feature that says otherwise. It doesn't automatically "break Stealth", whatever that means, unless speaking clearly and waving your hands would do so in the circumstances.

[Segev]

Yes, this is the main way I get Sneak Attack; I believe it's supposed to be the most common.

No idea what's supposed to be the most common, but sneak attack is supposed to be available "almost every round," is my understanding.

I've posted before about how I don't think this is appropriate - in discussion with you even, I think. I won't revisit all that as I'm not sure it'd be thread-relevant for me to do so... Suffice it to say I really hate such a mechanistic view of the game world and find the proposed narratives a poor band-aid.

Quite possibly it was in discussion with me. I question it being "mechanistic," though. If it is something where every moment could be precious, so taking whatever time is represented by the action it takes to cast the spell is sometimes critical, keeping it up all the time so you're never caught without it "up" seems like something a real professional whose life can depend on such critical moments might do.

They know how long it lasts. If it's important to have up in a fight, and being caught in a fight without it makes them less effective to the point it's worth sacrificing action economy to get it up (or going without it reduces your efficacy, but not enough to waste time casting it when moments matter), working to keep it from going down seems important.

Absolutely love Telekinetic feat for all the AT problems it solves on top of being super cool in its own right.

It is pretty cool. I wish the Telepathy feat were equally cool; detect thoughts being usable limited times rather than simply letting it be two-way communication is...ehn. I understand why they did it that way...I think. But it's still disappointing.

The latter would be my preferred houserule as an AT player. It requires so little change to the text: just change "control" to "cast the spell or control" in the last line of the Mage Hand Legerdemain feature.

One way to fix it would be to have Mage Hand Legerdemain allow you to cast mage hand with Cunning Action, and "if you do" you can get the rest of the benefit. So you're re-casting it every time you want the Advantage. Still costs a bonus action, but doesn't require you to have it already up. Of course, this is, essentially, now, "Use a bonus action to give yourself Advantage."

To be fair, this is a 9th level ability while Steady Aim is a 3rd level ability, so one archetype getting an improved version of Steady Aim is not a problem at a higher level than Steady Aim becomes available.

This is how I rule it - primarily because I am not in favour of giving spellcasters additional breaks. Spellcasting is magical and obvious - chanting and throwing arcane hand gestures and such - until you have a feature that says otherwise. It doesn't automatically "break Stealth", whatever that means, unless speaking clearly and waving your hands would do so in the circumstances.

"Speaking clearly" implying "loud enough that people automatically hear you" is a fairly big leap, I think. The hiding rules spell out clearly several things that break stealth. Spellcasting is very notably not on that list. If it were intended to be, it'd very likely be mentioned.

[Mr Adventurer]

"Speaking clearly" implying "loud enough that people automatically hear you" is a fairly big leap, I think. The hiding rules spell out clearly several things that break stealth. Spellcasting is very notably not on that list. If it were intended to be, it'd very likely be mentioned.

It's not a leap I make. Speaking clearly is speaking clearly. If someone could hear you speaking clearly, they could hear you casting a spell with verbal components.

[Greywander]

This is one of the things that bugs me about spell components. I wish they were more mechanical, and less RP. In particular, one of the things that irks me is how a lot of social spells have a V component. Note that the V component is not the suggestion (for Suggestion) or command (for Command), it is a separate incantation that is then followed by the specific suggestion or command. Why this irks me is that people are going to know that you just cast a spell, making the spell almost unusable in social settings without Subtle Spell. At least, if the DM runs things by the book.

With this in mind, I feel like spell components should have been linked to things like "this component will break stealth," "this component tells everyone who can see (or hear?) you that you are casting a spell," "this component requires a free hand," "this component requires you to be able to speak," etc. We have some of this, kind of.

Here's how I might reorganize spell components:

• Verbal - Requires that you be able to speak.
• Somatic - Requires a free hand.
• Material - Requires a specific item. Does not need a free hand, the item only has to be on your person. (If a spell requires a free hand, it will have a somatic component.)
• Flashy - Requires dramatic gestures or creates light or other effects. Those who can see you can tell you are casting a spell, and it reveals your presence (if hidden) to those who can see you.
• Vociferous - Requires loud incantation or creates noises or other effects. Those who can hear you can tell a spell is being cast, and it reveals your presence (if hidden) to those who can hear you.

This doesn't mean that you aren't handling material components, only that you are able to do so with a hand that isn't free (unless the spell has a somatic component). I could see further separating out components that breaks stealth and components that people can tell is a spell, but I felt like these might overlap a lot. Anyway, this isn't what we have, but maybe they'll do another pass on spell components in a future book (or edition).

[sayaijin]

One way to fix it would be to have Mage Hand Legerdemain allow you to cast mage hand with Cunning Action, and "if you do" you can get the rest of the benefit. So you're re-casting it every time you want the Advantage. Still costs a bonus action, but doesn't require you to have it already up. Of course, this is, essentially, now, "Use a bonus action to give yourself Advantage."

To be fair, this is a 9th level ability while Steady Aim is a 3rd level ability, so one archetype getting an improved version of Steady Aim is not a problem at a higher level than Steady Aim becomes available.

Either this, or the level 13 ability makes mage hand have a "until you dismiss it" duration seem like the best solutions.

The level 9 ability is actually one of the few ways to make a low-int AT rogue work, so I'd hate to take that away.

[Segev]

It's not a leap I make. Speaking clearly is speaking clearly. If someone could hear you speaking clearly, they could hear you casting a spell with verbal components.

If I'm "speaking clearly," how far away can you hear me? If I'm "speaking clearly," can I be heard over a medium-sized crowd at a shopping mall on a relatively calm day? If I'm "speaking clearly" at a table in a restaurant (in 2019 or earlier), can you hear me from four tables over? What if I'm "speaking clearly" in the bleachers at a high-school football game? What about hours before the game, "speaking clearly" to somebody standing at the top while I'm at the bottom of said bleachers?

"Speaking clearly," my point being, doesn't actually imply a volume. It implies clarity. If somebody can hear you, what you're saying is clear. Might be clearly gibberish, but it's not mumbled, slurred, subvocalized, or otherwise hard to understand if it's loud enough to hear from where the listener is. There are no enunciation issues.

If I'm in a theater and I want to lean over to make a comment to my friend (or, if I managed to wrangle one, my date) without disturbing the other guests, I can pitch my voice at a level that - I hope - my companion will hear without it being heard by anybody else. I can still speak clearly while doing this, at most ranges of volume I can manage. (Too quiet and it's not "speaking" anymore, and too loud and similar problems but with different sources of distortion.)

But it's a LOT of dynamic range at which I can "speak clearly."

[Mr Adventurer]

It feels like you are creating a dichotomy which doesn't need to exist. There is a natural range for speaking.

[Segev]

It feels like you are creating a dichotomy which doesn't need to exist. There is a natural range for speaking.

There is. My point is it's quite broad, and that "speaking clearly" needn't be particularly loud nor audible from even a few feet away. Hence why, at worst, I think calling for a new Stealth check to see if you roll low and accidentally drop a syllable into a quiet point or say something too loudly is called for. Not automatically assuming that casting a spell is audible to anybody whose passive perception you'd otherwise compare to the character's stealth check.