Tenser's Apprentice: Need help with an Anti-caster build

[moonfly7]

So in a game I'm playing my DM has integrated an altered version of the circle of 8 and their history into his homebrew world. One of the things to stay the same is that Rarry betrays the group and killed Tenser and Otiluke, but in his version Otiluke is the one who got cloned back to life while Tenser remains deceased. This happened many years ago, which is how we introduce my backup character concept: the Former apprentice of Tenser, left masterless by Rarry's betrayal, and seeking vengeance as well as the research and books that Rary took when he killed his master. This starts him down the path of training to kill Rary, and in the process becomes amazingly good at killing Wizards and Other casters.

Obviously for this build I'm going to need to multiclass, and at least some of my levels need to be in wizard. Since Tenser appears to have been a highly melee focused wizard(Not basing this on Tensers Transformation but rather the ridiculous number of melee spells he had in older editions) I want some martial ability obviously, and it will hopefully make me a better mage killer. I'd love advice on what classes I should take levels in, what subclasses I need, what spells I should take, and what feats I need. Obviously I know that some of the must haves are stuff like warcaster, the Silence spell, and counterspell, and likely some way to get magic resistance(which is really either gnome, ancients paladin for actual damage halving, or Yuan-ti).

[PhantomSoul]

A bladesinger or other melee-capable caster using Antimagic Field could be ideal... but a high level would be required... so might never work in the campaign!

[Naanomi]

Good anti caster builds:
-Abjurer (counterspell)
-Monks in general (good saves, stunning fist is good anti caster tech)
-Ancients Paladin (save aura, antimagic damage)
-Monster Slayers (antimagic tech, including unique anti teleport option)
-Assassin (one-shot alpha strike only viable option against highly prepared and cautious casters)

Good races include...
-Yuan-ti (magic resistance)
-Svirfneblin (nondetection can foil lots of prep)

[Mr Adventurer]

Since it's so central to the character, you might want to make sure it's spelled correctly: Rary, of Rary's Telepathic Bond et al :)

[moonfly7]

Since it's so central to the character, you might want to make sure it's spelled correctly: Rary, of Rary's Telepathic Bond et al :)

Whoops, thanks for the catch.

[Eldariel]

Abjurer is a fine call; it's got a significant leg up in a caster fight. Alternatively, since caster saves are nothing special in general, Diviner can be really brutal when deployed with a good selection of save-or-X spells. Then just bury them alive while they're incapacitated or something.

[moonfly7]

Good anti caster builds:
-Abjurer (counterspell)
-Monks in general (good saves, stunning fist is good anti caster tech)
-Ancients Paladin (save aura, antimagic damage)
-Monster Slayers (antimagic tech, including unique anti teleport option)
-Assassin (one-shot alpha strike only viable option against highly prepared and cautious casters)

Good races include...
-Yuan-ti (magic resistance)
-Svirfneblin (nondetection can foil lots of prep)

I'm going to assume anti caster tech is anti caster technique. Definitley interested in abjurer wizard, ancients pally and monster slayer. My issue is I'm not entirely sure which of the 3 I need beyond the wizard, or if I even should multiclass, although since I want good melee and health it's likely necassary. Still I think both a paladin and ranger dip could require quite a few levels to be effective yes?

Abjurer is a fine call; it's got a significant leg up in a caster fight. Alternatively, since caster saves are nothing special in general, Diviner can be really brutal when deployed with a good selection of save-or-X spells. Then just bury them alive while they're incapacitated or something.

Definitley going to go abjurer, it adds a significant boost to my survivability which is key. Plus it does have excellent synergy with arguably the most important spell in this build: counter spell.

[Eldariel]

I'm going to assume anti caster tech is anti caster technique. Definitley interested in abjurer wizard, ancients pally and monster slayer. My issue is I'm not entirely sure which of the 3 I need beyond the wizard, or if I even should multiclass, although since I want good melee and health it's likely necassary. Still I think both a paladin and ranger dip could require quite a few levels to be effective yes?

Definitley going to go abjurer, it adds a significant boost to my survivability which is key. Plus it does have excellent synergy with arguably the most important spell in this build: counter spell.

Just one level of non-Wizard if any at all: it is generally the case that levels in anything but Wizard before level 18 make you worse at killing Wizard than straight Wizards. Your best bet is probably Fighter (if you want a fighting style and plan on eventually taking a second level for the hilarity that is Action Surge), Cleric or Artificer (if you want unhindered slot progression), or potentially Hexblade (Hexblade's Curse has some nice synergy with some Wizard abilities, though Magic Missile specifically at its worst vs. Wizards since they have Shield - but you can Counterspell that).

Bladesinger or a Martial + Light Armor Race [Hobgoblin, Githyanki, Mountain Dwarf, etc.] is a fine straight Wizard way of becoming good at hitting things while still being a full caster. Bladesinger specifically is quite excellent if you plan on using Antimagic Field (probably the best Antimagic Field user in the game and among the best Shapechange users too). This gives you Antimagic Field among other things on schedule.

[clash]

War Magic Wizard has way more anti-magic tools than abjurer. I highly recommend going with war magic for wizard. There are 2 build that come to mind:

Saving throws build:
Paladin 2/War wizard 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Paladin 5
You need int charisma and str for this one so somewhat mad but we will keep int at 13 and use cha for casting and strength 15 can get us heavy armor right off the hop.

At level 5 we have delayed our spells known quite a bit but we already have 3 second level spell slots already. We can cast bless to help with our weapon attacks and saves. We can smite to deal a little extra damage. We have favored by the gods for an extra 2d4 on a crucial save. Using resources our saves have the bonus of 2d4 favored by gods + 1d4 bless + 4 from arcane deflection for an average bonus on nova of 11.5.

At level 10 we have extra attack, more spell slots, add cha to all saves and cut spell damage in half.

Counterspell Build
War Wizard 6/Bard 2/Warlock 5
The crux of this build is counterspell. It takes longer to come online and requires investment in int and charisma again.
Level 5 We have arcane deflection for bonus to saves, and our bread and butter counterspell.
Level 10 We have half proficiency to counterspell checks.
Level 13 we have level 3 spell slots refreshing on a short rest and extra attack for a bit of melee prowess.

[Eldariel]

War Magic Wizard has way more anti-magic tools than abjurer. I highly recommend going with war magic for wizard. There are 2 build that come to mind:

Saving throws build:
Paladin 2/War wizard 2/Divine Soul Sorcerer 1/Paladin 5
You need int charisma and str for this one so somewhat mad but we will keep int at 13 and use cha for casting and strength 15 can get us heavy armor right off the hop.

At level 5 we have delayed our spells known quite a bit but we already have 3 second level spell slots already. We can cast bless to help with our weapon attacks and saves. We can smite to deal a little extra damage. We have favored by the gods for an extra 2d4 on a crucial save. Using resources our saves have the bonus of 2d4 favored by gods + 1d4 bless + 4 from arcane deflection for an average bonus on nova of 11.5.

At level 10 we have extra attack, more spell slots, add cha to all saves and cut spell damage in half.

Counterspell Build
War Wizard 6/Bard 2/Warlock 5
The crux of this build is counterspell. It takes longer to come online and requires investment in int and charisma again.
Level 5 We have arcane deflection for bonus to saves, and our bread and butter counterspell.
Level 10 We have half proficiency to counterspell checks.
Level 13 we have level 3 spell slots refreshing on a short rest and extra attack for a bit of melee prowess.

I beg to differ: Abjurer gets bonuses to the best anti-magic abilities a Wizard gets in Counterspell and Dispel. Meanwhile, a War Wizard gets a bonus to Initiative (excellent in general but not especially for fighting casters), bonus to saves (nice) and a bonus to AC + Concentration (nice against basically everyone but most casters) and a totally wasted 14th level ability. Abjurer gets extra durability in the form of the Ward so it's not like they lack in terms of durability either. Overall, for specifically anti-caster power they get more. Though War Wizard is quite decent in general (that said, Chronurgist is by far better than War Wizard while still fitting a very similar niche rerolling saves and forcing autosuccess and failure and getting Int to Initiative while also getting other great powers).

This build for example would just be better as a Chronurgist. Though I have a hard time recommending multiclassing so much - this build wouldn't have a prayer against a level 13 Wizard with their Simulacrums and Contingencies and whatnot. High level magic gets exponentially better, not the other way around.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'd have to play test this, but a Sorcadin build strikes me as the best idea. Paladin for your martial levels and sorcerer for your arcane levels.

What could be more anti wizard than a sorcerer?
Paladin = Ancients
Sorcerer = Divine Soul, though any number of sorcerer origins might be handy.

Shadow sorcerer lets you put the wizard into darkness and then attack it, and if you misty step to them and smite with advantage ... or if you hold person them and smite them, auto crit ...

I think you'd need up to 3 levels of Sorcerer to get meta magic that allows you to inflict disadvantage on the save versus crucial spell for your assassination attempt - hold person.

Hold the wizard and then smite them with an almost assured auto crit.
Your other spells you can choose for defense or offense as needed.

The best defense seem to be a good offense.
Feats: Mage Slayer, and either Resilient Dex, Wis, or Con. (Depends on if you start as paladin or sorcerer). Proficiency in wisdom and con saves to avoid getting controlled. You will already have proficiency in Cha when going either Paladin or Sorcerer.

[stoutstien]

It should be noted that war magic arcane deflection only works for a single attack or saving throw. It still a good feature but hardly the ultimate defensive reaction to have on tap.

[Throne12]

I would go with bladesinger wizard with the feats mage slayer and warcaster. I did a moon Druid with those feat and it was pretty effective. For race Mark of Sentinel human is what you want for the the extra spells like counterspell, compel duel, death ward, ect.



The post below me is a really great option as well.

[J-H]

As an alternative to all these wizard options, consider Monster Slayer Ranger, especially if this will be at level 10+. I favor archery, because you can pick up +2 to hit over melee, and because Rangers tend to have only moderately good AC, typically around 16-18 before magic armors. All of its abilities key off of a 60' range.

Here's what this brings to the table:
-Sense most non-natural creatures for a mile around. Helps find enemy summoners and stuff.
-Spells known: PFE, Magic Circle same, and eventually Banishment.
-Hunter's Sense: As an action, with no save, unless a target is hidden from divination magic, you learn immunities, resistances, and vulnerabilities for a target within 60'.
-Second favored foe (Slayer's Prey): +1d6 to one hit per turn, unlimited use.
-+1d6 to saves against effects caused by your Slayer's Prey target, who is presumably the enemy wizard. This is better than Bless, and stacks with it if you have someone casting Bless on you.
-Magic User's Nemesis. As a reaction to someone visible casting a spell or teleporting within 60', you can force a Wisdom save. On a failed save, the spell doesn't go off or the teleport fails. Yes, you, as a ranger, can "Nope" one enemy spellcast. It's only once per short rest, but it's still pretty nice. Theoretically, you can use this to block a Shield spell or a Counterspell.
-Slayer's Counter: If your Prey target forces you to make a save, you can attack as a reaction, before making your save. If you hit, your save succeeds automatically, and you deal damage to your target normally. With archery fighting style, magic bows and arrows stacking, and a good Dex, your attack roll is somewhere between +12 and +17 at this point, so you've got a very high chance of hitting a wizard, even if he's using Shield. You get to deal damage and auto-pass your save. This has no limit per day, so it's actually really good in a 1v1 duel, and really limits your enemy to attack-roll only spells.

[moonfly7]

Just one level of non-Wizard if any at all: it is generally the case that levels in anything but Wizard before level 18 make you worse at killing Wizard than straight Wizards. Your best bet is probably Fighter (if you want a fighting style and plan on eventually taking a second level for the hilarity that is Action Surge), Cleric or Artificer (if you want unhindered slot progression), or potentially Hexblade (Hexblade's Curse has some nice synergy with some Wizard abilities, though Magic Missile specifically at its worst vs. Wizards since they have Shield - but you can Counterspell that).

Bladesinger or a Martial + Light Armor Race [Hobgoblin, Githyanki, Mountain Dwarf, etc.] is a fine straight Wizard way of becoming good at hitting things while still being a full caster. Bladesinger specifically is quite excellent if you plan on using Antimagic Field (probably the best Antimagic Field user in the game and among the best Shapechange users too). This gives you Antimagic Field among other things on schedule.

1, I don't know if we'll go all the way to level 20, but I do know that my only real goal in wizard is to make it to the level where I can cast Tensers Transformation. I also disagree with your assessment that straight wizard till 18 is the best caster killer(you said wizard but I'm trying for more general scope anyways) because better armor and more importantly better health on someone with 6th level spells is going to be more effective than just a flat wizard. Yes I might not have 7th or 8th level spells but halving all magical damage or just flat up saying "no" to a spell is going to top those in a 1 on 1 with a wizard.

I'd have to play test this, but a Sorcadin build strikes me as the best idea. Paladin for your martial levels and sorcerer for your arcane levels.

What could be more anti wizard than a sorcerer?
Paladin = Ancients
Sorcerer = Divine Soul, though any number of sorcerer origins might be handy.

Shadow sorcerer lets you put the wizard into darkness and then attack it, and if you misty step to them and smite with advantage ... or if you hold person them and smite them, auto crit ...

I think you'd need up to 3 levels of Sorcerer to get meta magic that allows you to inflict disadvantage on the save versus crucial spell for your assassination attempt - hold person.

Hold the wizard and then smite them with an almost assured auto crit.
Your other spells you can choose for defense or offense as needed.

The best defense seem to be a good offense.
Feats: Mage Slayer, and either Resilient Dex, Wis, or Con. (Depends on if you start as paladin or sorcerer). Proficiency in wisdom and con saves to avoid getting controlled. You will already have proficiency in Cha when going either Paladin or Sorcerer.

I prefer wizard for this build, so I'd rather not only have sorcerer levels, as I'm looking for best build within the requirements from the beginning. Not the best build in general. Also this build seems more built around "assassination" whereas I want to be more of a mid to frontliner.

I would go with bladesinger wizard with the feats mage slayer and warcaster. I did a moon Druid with those feat and it was pretty effective. For race Mark of Sentinel human is what you want for the the extra spells like counterspell, compel duel, death ward, ect.



The post below me is a really great option as well.

Definitley taking those feats and I'll be seriously considering blade singer. I'm not 100% into that subclass but if I can get my DM to port over Tenders old melee spells I'll probably end up taking it. One thing that would be moot is extra attack sense Transformation kinda already has it but it'll be nice for earlier levels.

As an alternative to all these wizard options, consider Monster Slayer Ranger, especially if this will be at level 10+. I favor archery, because you can pick up +2 to hit over melee, and because Rangers tend to have only moderately good AC, typically around 16-18 before magic armors. All of its abilities key off of a 60' range.

Here's what this brings to the table:
-Sense most non-natural creatures for a mile around. Helps find enemy summoners and stuff.
-Spells known: PFE, Magic Circle same, and eventually Banishment.
-Hunter's Sense: As an action, with no save, unless a target is hidden from divination magic, you learn immunities, resistances, and vulnerabilities for a target within 60'.
-Second favored foe (Slayer's Prey): +1d6 to one hit per turn, unlimited use.
-+1d6 to saves against effects caused by your Slayer's Prey target, who is presumably the enemy wizard. This is better than Bless, and stacks with it if you have someone casting Bless on you.
-Magic User's Nemesis. As a reaction to someone visible casting a spell or teleporting within 60', you can force a Wisdom save. On a failed save, the spell doesn't go off or the teleport fails. Yes, you, as a ranger, can "Nope" one enemy spellcast. It's only once per short rest, but it's still pretty nice. Theoretically, you can use this to block a Shield spell or a Counterspell.
-Slayer's Counter: If your Prey target forces you to make a save, you can attack as a reaction, before making your save. If you hit, your save succeeds automatically, and you deal damage to your target normally. With archery fighting style, magic bows and arrows stacking, and a good Dex, your attack roll is somewhere between +12 and +17 at this point, so you've got a very high chance of hitting a wizard, even if he's using Shield. You get to deal damage and auto-pass your save. This has no limit per day, so it's actually really good in a 1v1 duel, and really limits your enemy to attack-roll only spells.

Definitley wanting at least some monster slayer, but I don't think I'm going to go all the way in it, nice as it is. Although thinking about it it's technically possible to grab a lot of spells with feats after tashas but I'd rather not miss out on counter spell or Transformation.

[Eldariel]

[QUOTE=moonfly7;24829090]1, I don't know if we'll go all the way to level 20, but I do know that my only real goal in wizard is to make it to the level where I can cast Tensers Transformation. I also disagree with your assessment that straight wizard till 18 is the best caster killer(you said wizard but I'm trying for more general scope anyways) because better armor and more importantly better health on someone with 6th level spells is going to be more effective than just a flat wizard. Yes I might not have 7th or 8th level spells but halving all magical damage or just flat up saying "no" to a spell is going to top those in a 1 on 1 with a wizard./QUOTE]

The higher you go the less relevant good armor is. The higher you go, the more powerful the next level of spells is. Thus, the higher you aim, the more you stand to lose by not continuing to advance your casting. Abjurer incidentally gets to halve all magical damage on level 14. In any event, when you fight a Wizard, it's not just damage you have to worry about: Wizards can also mind control you, send you to the shadow realm, turn you into a newt, or any number of unpleasant effects that don't depend on damage. The improved armor is great vs. everything but Wizards: they mostly target your saves. If you wanted to make a Barbarian killer, this would work much better. In a 1v1 with a Wizard, it comes down to:
- Being able to escape Wall of Force or similar, even blind [Pyrotechnics + Wall of Force + Wall of Light/Sickening Radiation is a totally doable combo for a level 13 Wizard for instance]
- Being able to survive Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha saving throw-based "you lose"-effects
- Being able to deflect Bigby's Hand and Telekinesis
- Being able to survive hordes of summons (Animate Objects, Animate Dead, Danse Macabre, etc.) or one big summon (Summon Greater Demon, Conjure Elemental, etc.)
- Being able to act blind
- Being able to chase someone flying and teleporting around
- Being able to knock enemy out in a single offensive action


AC is only tangentially relevant. Also, look at the higher level spells:
- 7th level spells give you Simulacrum among others. This means even if you halve all incoming damage, the enemy has twice the firepower (and again, not all kinds of dangerous offense from a Wizard deals damage). OTOH if you go to 7, you double your damage and get the ability to hold two Concentrations and so on. This spell is just unreal.
- 8th level spells give you Antimagic Field. Forget about Tenser's, this is the spell that gives you the kind of edge that's useful against Wizards. Also Mind Blank, which is really, really important if you're hunting someone with the power to scry'n'die you.
- 9th level spells give you Shapechange. As a warrior type, you're the best Shapechange user in the game: turn into a Marilith, add your bonuses on 7 attacks in a turn, have a free reaction each turn to Counterspell, go to town. Bladesinger with Shapechange is absolutely bonkers. Of course, Shapechange also gives you access to every Dragon's breath, permanent buffs in the form of turning into a Deva, ability to make humanoid enemies your thralls, etc.
- 9th level spells also give you Wish, which allows you to get a Greater Steed and free Simulacrums and Clones and such. Also True Polymorph for all its ridiculousness.


If you do want to fight in melee as a full Wizard, I do recommend the Bladesinger over Abjurer: while it's less obviously anti-caster, it hits things in the face and makes the best use of all those melee-favourable spells on the Wizard list (offensive Contingency + Dimension Door, cast Antimagic Field, ensure you have Sentinel and few mages have tools to escape that). That class goes beautifully with Tenser's (Extra Attack may be wasted but you get +5 to damage on all your attacks from Bladesong and +5 to AC and basically impregnable Concentration, which makes all the other bonuses you get worth way more - and you get to hit once with a Cantrip like Booming Blade for even more extra damage) and all sorts of melee stuff and doesn't delay your casting one bit. One fun Tenser's Transformation combo for if you ever do get to 9th level spells:
- Tenser's Transformation [your Simulacrum can cast it on itself] + True Polymorph [on your Simulacrum]: Now you have a 7 times attacking Marilith with Advantage on all attacks adding +2d12 on all its attacks. This can 1v1 Tarrasque. And the best part? You're never in any danger: it's your Simulacrum and you can Wish for a new one the next day if it gets broken. Even better if you have some Belt of Giant Strength for your Marilith Simulacrum.


As for feats, I think Mage Slayer isn't really worth it (the principal issue with it is that you only have a single reaction so you could Counterspell it anyways and if enemy moves away from you, you'll have to use your Reaction to keep them next to you - Mage Slayer is really unreliable and the Concentration disadvantage just isn't all that unless you can regularly hit for 40+ damage in a single hit) but you definitely do want:
- Alert
- Lucky
- Resilient: Con
- Sentinel

War Caster isn't bad either especially if your DM lets you Booming Blade on it. So go Vuman for that sweet extra feat.