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2020-12-02, 11:53 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
So I was reviewing the rules of Exhaustion, and there's not a lot of things in this game that gives Exhaustion levels. Sickening Radiance is there, but it's also super dangerous and lethal.
However, the "Chase" rules basically spell out a way to quickly accrue exhaustion. The rule say:
During the chase, a participant can freely use the Dash action a number of times equal to 3 + its Constitution modifier. Each additional Dash action it takes during the chase requires the creature to succeed on a DC 10 Constitution check at the end of its turn or gain one level of exhaustion.
So... say I use Suggestion on an NPC to force him to run in circles. He would quickly accrue all levels of exhaustion until his speed reaches 0. And since you remove ONE level of exhaustion per long rest, that NPC is now effectively a non-issue for at least a few days.
The limits on Suggestion is "you can't force someone to do something obviously lethal". Would a suggestion of "Sprinting" be considered lethal?
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2020-12-02, 12:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2019
- Location
- Northwest AR
- Gender
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
"Sprint until you drop dead" obviously wouldn't work. But something like "You've decided to get into shape, so go run laps until you're so exhausted that you need to rest for 3 days to fully recover" might.
Reread the Suggestion spell... It's not just that you can't force someone to do something "obviously lethal". It's that you can't force them to do an "obviously harmful act".
So it comes down to how your DM interprets the prohibition against "obviously harmful acts". To me, Levels 1-3 of Exhaustion aren't really "physically harmful" in a strict sense, but Level 4-6 would be, so I'd limit it to a maximum of 3 levels of Exhaustion. Your DM may rule otherwise.
1 Disadvantage on Ability Checks
2 Speed halved
3 Disadvantage on Attack rolls and Saving Throws
4 Hit point maximum halved
5 Speed reduced to 0
6 DeathLast edited by RogueJK; 2020-12-02 at 12:33 PM.
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2020-12-02, 12:41 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2019
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
It's always going to be DM dependent. For me sprinting until you can't physically move anymore doesn't pass the "reasonable" test and halving your hit points is harmful so there's no way they would continue to sprint once they've hit that 3rd level of exhaustion.
And depending on wording, they might stop dashing but continue moving after 1 level of exhaustion.
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2020-12-02, 01:17 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Mar 2013
- Location
- Utah
- Gender
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
Does "running" automatically imply using the dash action? I would think dashing would be "sprinting", not running. That's not really important, but I wanted to get it out.
More to the point, how is "run in circles" reasonable? (Not saying it's not, but if I were DMing, I don't think I'd accept it without some thought.) When I think of suggestion, I basically think that it has to be something the person would normally do, possibly while drunk, but isn't planning on it right now. So if you said it to someone with the athlete background, or a particular player I had who made it a point in the early sessions that his character was running laps around town, then maybe it's reasonable. A wizard described as portly, however? I don't think there is any way they would consider "run in circles" to be reasonable. If it is just "run in circles", with no purpose attached, I don't think I'd deem it reasonable for anyone other than an athlete.
I'd also say that running yourself to disadvantage is obviously harmful. That's a change for the worse in your physical state, so it meets the bar for me. As I've thought this through, I'm pretty sure I would not allow this in any circumstance.
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2020-12-02, 02:00 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Oct 2016
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
Aren't the chase rules an optional rule, and even then only comes into effect if there is an actual chase going on?
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2020-12-02, 05:05 PM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Sep 2020
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
Anyone who has read "The Preacher" has seen the best use of a long term suggestion that there ever will be... ;)
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2020-12-03, 05:14 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2020
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2020-12-03, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
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2020-12-03, 05:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2020
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
Hold your breath.
The air is toxic and will kill you immediately.Last edited by BamBam; 2020-12-03 at 06:06 AM.
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2020-12-03, 06:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Jan 2013
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
Ah, thanks
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2020-12-03, 07:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
IMO that's as much unreasonable than "stop breathing for one hour". The action "stop breathing for 6s" is totally reasonable, but it will quickly become obvious to anyone trying to stop breathing for one hour that it is harmful to them.
Small note, I doubt most peoples are able to run up until their death by exhaustion without any training. They would probably collapse after 2-3 levels of exhaustion. (With possibly a moral check after each exhaustion level).
And they, they will be in intense pain the next day or two, difficultly able to do anything, because of how much they pushed their body at their limit (represented by the one exhaustion level per long rest).
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2020-12-03, 07:56 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Nov 2020
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2020-12-03, 08:04 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2018
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
It doesn't matter if the air is toxic, stopping to breath for very long period of time is still harmful.
"Harm yourself or you will die from [plausible cause of death]" is not a valid suggestion, as it's still an harmful act.
[Additionally, even if you allow this suggestion, if the target accidentally respire some air, for example by failing to correctly hold their breath like most peoples would, they will know that the air is not toxic any more. Suggestion doesn't convince someone of a fact against what their perception say like an illusion spells would.]Last edited by MoiMagnus; 2020-12-03 at 08:10 AM.
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2020-12-03, 08:18 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Dec 2020
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2020-12-03, 08:27 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- May 2017
- Gender
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2020-12-03, 08:31 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
I think the biggest problem with the idea is just that its inefficient compared to other instructions that you can give.
"Sprint around in circles until you're too tired to move."
Let's presume a Con of 10, that seems appropriately average. So the victim Dashes for 3 rounds, and thereafter has a 50/50 chance of gaining a level of Exhaustion. Assuming perfectly reliable statistics, that means they'll hit Rank 3 in ~9 rounds and rank 6 in ~15 rounds - about 90 seconds.
Problem is, they're still there with you - if they get interrupted and awaken or you lose concentration, they're within 1 action of being back up in your face.
"Jog 1 mile to the North."
A mile is 5280 feet, which with an average move of 30ft is 176 rounds, more if they meet difficult terrain. There's no ambiguity about it being a threat to the victim so they shouldn't have much reason to refuse it unless you're sending them over a cliff or something. And then they have to turn around and come back again. How much more time do you need to deal with them? It's just so much simpler.Last edited by Wraith; 2020-12-03 at 08:35 AM.
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
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2020-12-03, 09:57 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
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2020-12-03, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2007
- Location
- England
- Gender
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown
~ CAUTION: May Contain Weasels ~
RPG Characters What I Done Played As (Explained Badly)
17 Things I Learned About 40k By Playing Dark Heresy
Tales of a Role-Play Gamer - Horrible Optimisation
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2020-12-03, 10:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Feb 2020
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2020-12-03, 11:50 AM (ISO 8601)
- Join Date
- Apr 2011
Re: Rate this Idea: Suggestion for long-term nonlethal takedown