summon + mind control = slas with costly components?

[newguydude1]

When the spell that summoned a creature ends and the creature disappears, all the spells it has cast expire. A summoned creature cannot use any innate summoning abilities it may have, and it refuses to cast any spells that would cost it XP, or to use any spell-like abilities that would cost XP if they were spells.

since it refuses instead of being incapable, would something like suggestion be able to force the creature to use slas that would cost xp if they were spells?

[Jazath]

since it refuses instead of being incapable, would something like suggestion be able to force the creature to use slas that would cost xp if they were spells?

It seems possible. As long it's not against core beliefs or alignments or in the green zone

[Darg]

I believe that it falls under the "obviously self destructive" clause of dominate. Just as you can't order a fighter to slit their throat, you can't order a creature to give up their experience for another creature. If it is something not against their nature and for their benefit, I could see it working though.

As Omega said, suggestion might work if it is convincing enough. The only issue is communication.

[newguydude1]

I believe that it falls under the "obviously self destructive" clause of dominate. Just as you can't order a fighter to slit their throat, you can't order a creature to give up their experience for another creature. If it is something not against their nature and for their benefit, I could see it working though.

As Omega said, suggestion might work if it is convincing enough. The only issue is communication.

suggestion is stronger than dominate because you can force creatures to jump into a pool of acid. dominate cant. it just gotta be worded in a way that is convincing.

i was talking about slas that mimic spells that cost xp. since slas dont cost xp the summoned creature wont lose xp for casting the sla.

[noob]

I believe that it falls under the "obviously self destructive" clause of dominate. Just as you can't order a fighter to slit their throat, you can't order a creature to give up their experience for another creature. If it is something not against their nature and for their benefit, I could see it working though.

As Omega said, suggestion might work if it is convincing enough. The only issue is communication.

Spell like abilities costs no experience unless granted by some specific prcs.
So the summon is not harming itself by using its slas.

[Sam K]

I believe that it falls under the "obviously self destructive" clause of dominate. Just as you can't order a fighter to slit their throat, you can't order a creature to give up their experience for another creature. If it is something not against their nature and for their benefit, I could see it working though.

As Omega said, suggestion might work if it is convincing enough. The only issue is communication.

There is a big difference between giving up XP (a renewable resource) and taking your own life (possibly a finite resource) for no good reason. It's "obviously self destructive", not "obviously inconvenient", "obviously has some negative impacts on you" or "POSSIBLY self destructive". Mind controlled creatures can be made to fight for you, even against their allies. They can be made to expend resources (such as spells) for your benefit. They can be made to hand over items or reveal sensitive information. Using an ability that's innate to you, even with a minor cost, is not obviously self destructive. Now, using it over and over until you're at 0 exp could be considered obviously self destructive, but using it once? Probably not.

I find a good guideline for what is "obviously self destructive" or "against your nature" is things you would refuse to do if you had a gun to your head. You probably wouldn't slit your own throat, a devout priest probably wouldn't blaspheme (then again, "the atonement spell exist for a reason") - fighting your own allies is a bit iffy for loyal people ("Maybe if I use non-lethal force...") Sacrificing a bit of XP seem pretty minor, all things considered. There's no RAW support for this interpretation (that I know of), it's just one way to interpret the "obviously self destructive" wording.

[Darg]

suggestion is stronger than dominate because you can force creatures to jump into a pool of acid. dominate cant. it just gotta be worded in a way that is convincing.

i was talking about slas that mimic spells that cost xp. since slas dont cost xp the summoned creature wont lose xp for casting the sla.

Maybe if the acid looks like water? I can't say that a 2nd level spell would actually be that effective with only 1-2 sentences to use.

I misread your OP and thought you were trying to force them into giving up their xp, my bad.

There is a big difference between giving up XP (a renewable resource) and taking your own life (possibly a finite resource) for no good reason. It's "obviously self destructive", not "obviously inconvenient", "obviously has some negative impacts on you" or "POSSIBLY self destructive". Mind controlled creatures can be made to fight for you, even against their allies. They can be made to expend resources (such as spells) for your benefit. They can be made to hand over items or reveal sensitive information. Using an ability that's innate to you, even with a minor cost, is not obviously self destructive. Now, using it over and over until you're at 0 exp could be considered obviously self destructive, but using it once? Probably not.

I find a good guideline for what is "obviously self destructive" or "against your nature" is things you would refuse to do if you had a gun to your head. You probably wouldn't slit your own throat, a devout priest probably wouldn't blaspheme (then again, "the atonement spell exist for a reason") - fighting your own allies is a bit iffy for loyal people ("Maybe if I use non-lethal force...") Sacrificing a bit of XP seem pretty minor, all things considered. There's no RAW support for this interpretation (that I know of), it's just one way to interpret the "obviously self destructive" wording.

Hit Points are an abstract renewable resource just like experience. Thinking about it though, my example was a little extreme and more similar to level draining ones self. Though at the end of the day, if you lose too much of either you die.

[Crake]

The line is clearly a balance rule, so I would say attempts to subvert it are met with equal lack of success.

suggestion is stronger than dominate because you can force creatures to jump into a pool of acid. dominate cant. it just gotta be worded in a way that is convincing.

Dominate can get a creature to jump into a pool of acid if the creature thinks it's water, because it doesn't realize it's a self destructive act: "Obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." So in that regard, it's on par with suggestion.

[Thurbane]

The line is clearly a balance rule, so I would say attempts to subvert it are met with equal lack of success.

That's definitely how I'd rule it in my games.

[Sam K]

Hit Points are an abstract renewable resource just like experience. Thinking about it though, my example was a little extreme and more similar to level draining ones self. Though at the end of the day, if you lose too much of either you die.

I agree with you on the HP/XP comparison - having dominated creatures fight for you (which frequently involves losing HP and comes with a risk of losing all of them) is usually a reasonable use of domination, so I figure something which involves some loss of XP would be as well. Something which obviously involves losing ALL your HP or XP probably wouldn't be. Allowing yourself to get drained once by a vampire: possibly. Throwing yourself into a pit full of wights: taking it too far.

[Crake]

I agree with you on the HP/XP comparison - having dominated creatures fight for you (which frequently involves losing HP and comes with a risk of losing all of them) is usually a reasonable use of domination, so I figure something which involves some loss of XP would be as well. Something which obviously involves losing ALL your HP or XP probably wouldn't be. Allowing yourself to get drained once by a vampire: possibly. Throwing yourself into a pit full of wights: taking it too far.

Except xp loss can't be healed, while HP loss can be. There is a wizards article on NPCs and xp expenditure, and it states that NPCs can never be magically coerced into spending xp, it HAS to be a willfully done thing.