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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Nov 2017

    Default Mixing and match subclasses, or taking more than one subclass

    Let's say you really like subclass A, but you also really want a specific feature from subclass B. By the rules, you can't take more than one subclass per class, so we'd need to move into the realm of homebrew to make this work. What would be a good mechanism to do this with?

    One option I've considered is a feat that give you the features up to 3rd level in a subclass of your choice (since all subclasses are gained at 3rd level or earlier). Optionally, we could allow you to take it more than once, but maybe restrict it to once per class. Also, we could allow you to take the feat again in order to upgrade your second* subclass to the next set of features.
    *I say "second", but you wouldn't necessarily need to have levels in that class at all. Of course, some subclasses give bonuses to the core features of that class, so without those core features the subclass does nothing.

    Another option might be a "mix'n'match" option, where you can give up all the subclass features gained at a specific level in order to gain the features of a different subclass gained at the same level (or earlier?). Although I feel like this might be prone to abuse, especially with the "or earlier" option, where you trade away a ribbon for a more substantial ability. Not all features are of the same value, and this is generally figured in to the value of the rest of the abilities for that subclass.

    An interesting variation on the mix'n'match option might be that you have to pick a different subclass to gain features from every time you get subclass features. As in, you can't gain features from the same subclass twice. You still have the problem of being able to pick the best feature from each subclass, but if a subclass has two nice features gained at different levels, you can't get both of them. Also, probably no "or earlier" clause for this option. I actually kind of like this as a general "custom subclass" option.

    As another option, similar to the feat option, once you reach 20th level you could spend epic boons to progress other subclasses. Taking that boon more than once would progress that subclass to the next set of features. You'd always get all the features up to 3rd level the first time, and after that it would depend on what levels that class gets new subclass features, so it would take three or four boons to max a subclass. This option goes hand-in-hand with another houserule where you can spend epic boons on more class levels, but your character level is locked at 20 (you only get the class features, no HP or proficiency bump). The problem with this is that most campaigns don't reach 20th level, or stay there for very long once they do. It's a nice option to have, but not something you could reliably use.

    There's also the "gestalt" option, where you just pick two (or more) subclasses and get both sets of features. However, this one differs from all of the above in that it just gives you the features with no cost. It's fine if everyone is using it, but not if only some people are using it.

    How do you feel about these options? Would you use any of them? What are some other ways this could be handled?

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGuy

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    Jun 2016

    Default Re: Mixing and match subclasses, or taking more than one subclass

    This concept is brought up every so often becuase it would be really cool to enable. The problem with it lies in the fact that not all subclasses are created equal. What I mean by that is the different classes have assign different mechanical value to the subclasses in the class. Ranger for example relies on the damage boost from the subclass to keep it in line with other classes whereas Rogue gets little to no damage boost from its subclass and instead gets a few more utility options generally few and far between. So getting two ranger subclasses is going to be more valuable than getting two rogue subclasses.

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Orc in the Playground
     
    AssassinGuy

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    May 2020

    Default Re: Mixing and match subclasses, or taking more than one subclass

    I've often wondered how over powered it would be to let someone essentially "start over" in the same class but with different subclass.

    So take cleric for example. You take your third character level as a first level in a different subclass. You are a third level caster, so you get second level slots, but you only have access to first level spells. If course you also get more cantrips.

    It gets a bit more interesting with the fighter because you get a second fighting style, but do you get a second usage of second wind? Delaying extra attack might be worth it...

    For a rogue, do you get expertise a second time? Does your sneak attack go up with the sum of your rogue subclasses, or are they all stacking? Taking 3 subclasses in rogue might make you the best skill monkey.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Greywander's Avatar

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    Nov 2017

    Default Re: Mixing and match subclasses, or taking more than one subclass

    Quote Originally Posted by clash View Post
    This concept is brought up every so often becuase it would be really cool to enable. The problem with it lies in the fact that not all subclasses are created equal. What I mean by that is the different classes have assign different mechanical value to the subclasses in the class. Ranger for example relies on the damage boost from the subclass to keep it in line with other classes whereas Rogue gets little to no damage boost from its subclass and instead gets a few more utility options generally few and far between. So getting two ranger subclasses is going to be more valuable than getting two rogue subclasses.
    This is true, the balance in power from the base class vs. the subclass is different for different classes. So a second subclass would vary a lot in power depending on which class it was for. And yes, for as much as the ranger is derided, I am starting to notice just how strong its subclasses are. Still, if you're restricted only to features up to 3rd level (e.g. via a feat), then that shouldn't make as much of a difference. It's the subclass in its entirety that becomes unbalanced, not so much those earliest features.

    Also, the mix'n'match options don't have this issue, since you still only have one subclass, you just pick and choose which features.

    Quote Originally Posted by sayaijin View Post
    I've often wondered how over powered it would be to let someone essentially "start over" in the same class but with different subclass.
    [...]
    It gets a bit more interesting with the fighter because you get a second fighting style, but do you get a second usage of second wind? Delaying extra attack might be worth it...
    This is kind of the problem with doubling up on an entire class. If I were to implement this, things wouldn't stack, so no extra uses of Second Wind or Action Surge (!) or anything like that. You might be able to choose an extra fighting style, or pick up another Expertise (on rogue or bard), etc., but I could also see nixing all base class features. In that case, you have a lot of dead levels just to get to the subclass features. It might make sense to skip straight past all those dead levels, and jump straight to the levels at which you gain class features. If you're spending epic boons for extra class levels, then this is basically the same as spending epic boons for subclass features.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Titan in the Playground
     
    Imp

    Join Date
    Feb 2017

    Default Re: Mixing and match subclasses, or taking more than one subclass

    I would never allow it at my table, personally. Subclasses are important choices, I can see replacing the whole subclass but mixing parts of X and parts of Y? No thanks.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    MindFlayer

    Join Date
    Mar 2015
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    Male

    Default Re: Mixing and match subclasses, or taking more than one subclass

    My solution is homebrew.

    You like X and Y... and you have a character concept that embodies that... cool. And it isn't overpowered... OK, lets make that work. But why X and Y? I mean if they are good because they are the closest to what you want on your chracter, then why not design abilities EVEN CLOSER to your ideal.

    If you are going to change things to give players a better experience, then just do it and do it in a way that makes that experience as good as possible.


    Building a whole general rules edifice to support a single character concept is overkill and just plain hard when you can get better results with a bespoke solution. I also find that if you create general rules, people will abuse them and puh their limits whereas if you give people no rules, then they tend to confine themselves to what is reasonable.

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