OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

Because Teleportation Circle, which is SPECIFICALLY usable as a trap, allows no save and requires a rogue to spot.

It's the obvious spell, and it's no save.

But I don't think that's consistent with the observation that the corridor changed colour before any teleportation took place.

[Mic_128]

But I don't think that's consistent with the observation that the corridor changed colour before any teleportation took place.

I'm sure she could easily have painted the entrances to match the trick tunnel.

Maybe the Astral Fortress could get some other use, like the battlefield for a boss fight later down the line. I think that whatever threat Redcloak pulls using Xykon's phylactery is what's gonna matter more at the end, I think he might have some type of dead man's trigger thing going on somehow, although not sure on what that set-up would require.

I've never gotten the "final fight at astral fortress" theories.

How would the Order even get there? V can't cast Conjuration or Necromancy, so even if they hit level 17 they can't exactly cast astral projection or Gate. Durkon's not hitting 17 anytime soon either.
[...]
And there wouldn't be reason to go there. Xykon has no need of retreating to his fortress, because that would only give away where his phylactery is.

That's what I think, but as that might be too predictable, I think Rich will come up with a variation. The Rose Bowl parade will be coming soon, maybe they need Xykon as a color commentator.
I feel similarly. The trouble is Thor mentioned it and then told Durkon not to notice it if the topic comes up. That plants the seed of "we'll see the fortress somewhere in book seven" as a reasonable expectation.

I've been thinking about this, and I think it's going to be fairly significant. My guess is that something - be it a fight after all with Team Evil, or something else going wrong, the final gate ends up getting destroyed. Things are royally ducked up, the universe is doomed. Before it does however, Redcloak ports to the fortress, and in some way (unintentional or otherwise) let's the Order find it. Or maybe Thor answers a prayer from a certain message tone. From there, they're safe and use the fortress as part fallout shelter, part life raft and use it to enter The World in the Rift. More importantly, it keeps Redcloak - and thus, The Dark One - alive, still leaving them as a potential way to lock the Snarl. And maybe because this is the first time a handful of mortals survived, they can use their knowledge and memories to recreate the world.


Probably a billion holes in that idea, but hey.

[Goblin_Priest]

But I don't think that's consistent with the observation that the corridor changed colour before any teleportation took place.

I kind of assumed it was because the real passage was unblemished, as no light, water, dirt or such ever reached it. You know, like when you peel a protective plastic film on a device you've used for years, and go all "whoah, so that's the color it was when I got it!" Except more extreme, because I doubt that film does much for UV, and the device in question probably wasn't stepped and snowed on a ton of times.

[Hasric]

Where would they even retreat to, though?

Terry Pratchett's Discworld contains the answer to this.

Come on. Let's run away."

"Where to?"

Rincewind sighed. He'd tried to make his basic philosophy clear time and again, and
people never got the message.

"Don't you worry about to," he said. "In my experience that always takes care of itself.
The important word is away.
Terry Pratchett, Eric (Discworld, #9; Rincewind #4)

[bunsen_h]

I'm sure she could easily have painted the entrances to match the trick tunnel.

I think you're missing my point. I don't think that the "trap" is based on Teleportation Circle, because the visible change would depend on actually being teleported. Haley disables the thing, the tunnel changes colour, but nobody's been teleported yet.

[Doug Lampert]

I think you're missing my point. I don't think that the "trap" is based on Teleportation Circle, because the visible change would depend on actually being teleported. Haley disables the thing, the tunnel changes colour, but nobody's been teleported yet.

That's because the trap ALSO projects an illusion of where it sends you. When she disabled the trap, the illusion went away and you can see the actual corridor.

[Hasric]

I don't think it would works against them.
If RC dies, it will impede or at least delay the possibility for Xykon to take over the gate. He might want to destroy it out of spite, but he's more likely to try to put the Cloak on another goblinoid cleric. It's not like he was that much in a hurry.

And if (parts of) the Order survives, they may have more chance to be able to talk sense to this new Cloak bearer than to RC.


I'm not sure MitD is really ready to switch side, not ready enough at least to do it in the absence of O-Chul.

Didn't Right Eye have a daughter who is still around? Or the Hobgoblin Priest in Gobbotopia?
Looking for closing plot archs...

[understatement]

Didn't Right Eye have a daughter who is still around? Or the Hobgoblin Priest in Gobbotopia?
Looking for closing plot archs...

Neither are clerics that can cast 9th-level spells, and neither are likely to reach level 17 in the time remaining before the Gods decide to pull the plug.

[Hasric]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

Roy might be able to pull a Spellsplinter Maneuver once at the climax, but if my suspicions are correct and it works similarly to Mage Slayer or the like then only narrative causality would make it work; even Durkula was able to cast through it once and Xykon’s much stronger.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Of course there is always the issue that Xykon is supremely overpowered. But look at what we have, Roy has his special attack, Belkar is predicted to die by the end (possibly at the hands of Xykon?)and who knows what a kamikaze halfling can do? Xykon has protection from law. Belkar is far from lawful.

Also Xykon may be an epic liche with a really high CR but how would that compare with MitD at base? If the Monster turns (Ochul storyline) Xykon is facing a foe that outpowers an ancient dragon. Also we can see that Ochul isn't afraid of dying for a cause if he can save others. Cue possible dramatic sacrifice. Of course MitD is still not known regarding his nature and origin and has no perception of the gate. Maybe going into the gate is what the Monster needs? And if Xykon is in the way, too bad for bony

[bunsen_h]

Of course there is always the issue that Xykon is supremely overpowered. But look at what we have, Roy has his special attack, Belkar is predicted to die by the end (possibly at the hands of Xykon?)and who knows what a kamikaze halfling can do? Xykon has protection from law. Belkar is far from lawful.

Is Xykon protected from having an allosaur dropped on him from a considerable height?

EDIT:

That's because the trap ALSO projects an illusion of where it sends you. When she disabled the trap, the illusion went away and you can see the actual corridor.

That would make the trap immediately visible noticeable to anyone who detects illusions, which defeats the purpose of having a trap detectable only by rogues. And unnecessary in the "default" case if the corridor bends such that the rest of the dungeon isn't visible from the trap line.

[Thermophille]

Is Xykon protected from having an allosaur dropped on him from a considerable height?

You still have to make an attack roll, right? Xykon's AC is high 30s low 40s, what with Epic Mage Armor and all.

[Goblin_Priest]

You still have to make an attack roll, right? Xykon's AC is high 30s low 40s, what with Epic Mage Armor and all.

Huh... it's pretty amazing nobody seems to ever miss him, while it should be that no one ever hit him.

[Rogar Demonblud]

I suspect he just tanks the hit most of the time, since there's just about nobody around who's a serious threat to him.

[Dion]

You still have to make an attack roll, right? Xykon's AC is high 30s low 40s, what with Epic Mage Armor and all.

And allosaurus are improvised weapons, so there’s an additional -4 to hit.

Edit: unless... perhaps Belkar has secretly taken “proficiency: allosaurus”?

[WanderingMist]

Belkar is predicted to die by the end (possibly at the hands of Xykon?)and who knows what a kamikaze halfling can do? Xykon has protection from law. Belkar is far from lawful.

I've always wondered about the Oracle's prophecy for Belkar's death. If the gods can't let their followers know about the Snarl, that should include any visions Tiamat sends the Oracle. Which would also mean that any consequences of the Snarl's interference would also have to be withheld from the visions, such as say, Belkar failing to die.

[Dion]

Which would also mean that any consequences of the Snarl's interference would also have to be withheld from the visions, such as say, Belkar failing to die.

Hmm... so what if someone chose NOT to do something because of the snarl, but did something else instead, unrelated to the snarl?

Would those things the snarl didn’t interfere in ALSO be shielded from the Oracle, if the reason the snarl didn’t interfere is because the snarl interfered?

Edit: Ohh! Its the Snarl-Oracle paradox! Find the set of all predictions that wouldn’t be true if the snarl didn’t exist!. But if the Oracle predicts that he’s going to predict one of those predictions, then it wouldn’t be true. This proved conclusively that the Oracle doesn’t exist.

Pretty major plot hole if you ask me.

[Mic_128]

I think you're missing my point. I don't think that the "trap" is based on Teleportation Circle, because the visible change would depend on actually being teleported. Haley disables the thing, the tunnel changes colour, but nobody's been teleported yet.

Because the "trap" is the teleporter. It's been disabled, so they're now in the actual tunnel.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If this is a teleport circle trap, I think the Giant has done a useful trick of showing how the two sides can vary. In a way, it's a call back to the exaggerated sameness of the halls in Girard's pyramid. It'd be harder to depict this in prose text than a visual medium.

[bunsen_h]

Because the "trap" is the teleporter. It's been disabled, so they're now in the actual tunnel.

So what caused the colour change when the trap was disabled, if the function of the trap was to do a teleport?

[ebarde]

Considering she liked Girard, I wonder if she maybe implemented some illusions in her dungeon...

[Grey_Wolf_c]

So what caused the colour change when the trap was disabled, if the function of the trap was to do a teleport?

I'm not Mic_128, but I'm guessing that what they're picturing is not really a teleport trap, as much as a wormhole trap, so that the wormhole fills the corridor precisely, and shows you a different corridor on the other side.

I think that's too high-tech for a rogue, and it doesn't quite fit the skull crossing the boundary, though.

GW

[bunsen_h]

I'm not Mic_128, but I'm guessing that what they're picturing is not really a teleport trap, as much as a wormhole trap, so that the wormhole fills the corridor precisely, and shows you a different corridor on the other side.

I think that's too high-tech for a rogue, and it doesn't quite fit the skull crossing the boundary, though.

GW

And it isn't (according to my reading of the spell) the way Teleportation Circle works, which is what we were talking about in the first place.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And it isn't (according to my reading of the spell) the way Teleportation Circle works, which is what we were talking about in the first place.

Oh, it certainly doesn't, but I conceptually don't see a problem with the comic using this spell instead of the teleport, not now that it has been featured so prominently. And it is a form of teleport, from a layman's perspective.

GW

[danielxcutter]

Oh, it certainly doesn't, but I conceptually don't see a problem with the comic using this spell instead of the teleport, not now that it has been featured so prominently. And it is a form of teleport, from a layman's perspective.

GW

That’s not Teleport, or even Psionic Teleport. It’s Wormhole, and it looks like it was adapted from 2E Dark Sun.

I mean, if one of my players wanted to make a trap that works in the way some people suggest I’d make them require Teleportation Circle or Gate, I guess, but nothing in this edition really fits perfectly at all I think.

[Mic_128]

I'm not Mic_128, but I'm guessing that what they're picturing is not really a teleport trap, as much as a wormhole trap, so that the wormhole fills the corridor precisely, and shows you a different corridor on the other side.

I think that's too high-tech for a rogue, and it doesn't quite fit the skull crossing the boundary, though.

GW

That's exactly what I was picturing. But...*why* is it too high tech for a rogue ? It's a safe enough assumption she was high level, clearly had money to burn if she was hiring contractors to create the dungeon out of multidimensional stone. Why couldn't she have just paid for that too?

I don't see anything to suggest it's outside the realm of possibility.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's exactly what I was picturing. But...*why* is it too high tech for a rogue ? It's a safe enough assumption she was high level, clearly had money to burn if she was hiring contractors to create the dungeon out of multidimensional stone. Why couldn't she have just paid for that too?

I don't see anything to suggest it's outside the realm of possibility.

I'm not suggesting it is outside the realm of possibility. I very much believe it is a perfectly plausible explanation based on the evidence so far. But we also know that Dorukan's choice of contractors forced him to cut corners on dungeon design, so they didn't have infinite money. Traps need replacing more often than multidimensional stone, once built, so while she could afford to pay once for rock, she doesn't have the casting ability to replace any trap that breaks down or is permanently disabled, and I'd imagine dragging a high-level wizard to the North Pole for repairs is not the kind of thing you want to do on a regular basis, so all in all, it'd be a fairly bad idea to have thousands of traps you can't maintain yourself.

Now, could all that be brushed aside by author fiat just as he can brush aside the non-existance of a wormhole trap? Sure. She could have recruited a wizard to maintain the traps. But it doesn't quite fit the theme of the dungeon nor the personality of the creator. I am not yet willing to abandon the canonical idea of a temple of physical might in exchange for "she lied to herself in her own diary", which ultimately is my problem with any defence system that combines rogue and magical elements, both of which I'd imagine Kraagor would frown upon.

GW

[Corian]

Good catch about teleportation circle, possible.
One possible mechanism: Triggering the trap _disables_ the circle/portal/whatever. So TE never went through teleportation, which is why they never noticed. OOTS disabled the first layer trap, hence could and did trigger the portal, hence the conspicuous light effects and floor colour change.
Another beauty of this mechanism is that the portal does not even need to reload, it could be once-only.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Good catch about teleportation circle, possible.
One possible mechanism: Triggering the trap _disables_ the circle/portal/whatever. So TE never went through teleportation, which is why they never noticed. OOTS disabled the first layer trap, hence could and did trigger the portal, hence the conspicuous light effects and floor colour change.
Another beauty of this mechanism is that the portal does not even need to reload, it could be once-only.

No, they didn't disable the trap, they bypassed it. The trap is still working. The idea is that it controls a wormhole, and by disabling, they went to the actual corridor behind the trap, whereas TE have been blithely walking through the wormhole all this time, ending in a different place where monsters are. Wormholes don't trigger a saving throw, so as long as the edges are not visible, TE would not have noticed they weren't just walking through a regular corridor.

GW

[KorvinStarmast]

No, they didn't disable the trap, they bypassed it. The trap is still working. The idea is that it controls a wormhole, and by disabling, they went to the actual corridor behind the trap, whereas TE have been blithely walking through the wormhole all this time, ending in a different place where monsters are. Wormholes don't trigger a saving throw, so as long as the edges are not visible, TE would not have noticed they weren't just walking through a regular corridor.

GW

You have inspired me to dig into the SRD and look up 3.5e wormholes. I need to understand what you all are talking about, and I don't.
ETA: seems wormholes didn't make it to the SRD, or, I am just looking under the wrong sub category. (Isn't that what Lirian was using in the desert during the mounted dinosaur chase, or was that something else?)

[Rogar Demonblud]

Lauren, not Lirian. And yes, she was a psionicist creating wormholes.