OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

You have inspired me to dig into the SRD and look up 3.5e wormholes. I need to understand what you all are talking about, and I don't.

I don't think it is in the SRD - but effectively it is this power here (mostly seen on panel 10).

Effectively you open a portal between two spaces to allow movement to occur, the thought is that the 'trap' is an active wormhole which directs those who enter the corridor elsewhere rather then where they though they were entering.

Personally I am still partial to it being a Gate (as seen here panel 13) instead of a Wormhole but I can see why others would be dubious about that.

[Riftwolf]

Huh... it's pretty amazing nobody seems to ever miss him, while it should be that no one ever hit him.

Which means he doesn't have Epic Mage Armour on 24/7. As the dialogue about dispelling suggests, Xykon doesn't make optimal choices all the time, and isn't made of epic spell slots; some of them he'd prefer to use on something cooler than defence.

[BarakDeathBlade]

Archmage stacks with Sorcerer but base classes don't stack like that.

So for instance a Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Cleric 20/Druid 20 is casting as a level 20 caster for any of their various classes (assuming no items, feats etc), they would have a character level of 80.
Meanwhile a Bard 20/Loremaster 10/Arcane Trickster 10 is casting as a level 40 character and is a level 40 character.

We don't know how the splice worked in relation to caster level but my assumption is that the souls acted as independent contractors loaning arcane power to the contractee rather then acting as if the contractee had gained all the levels naturally - and as such the wizard levels wouldn't stack (and the sorcerer archmage levels would also remain seperate).

I'm not suggesting it is outside the realm of possibility. I very much believe it is a perfectly plausible explanation based on the evidence so far. But we also know that Dorukan's choice of contractors forced him to cut corners on dungeon design, so they didn't have infinite money. Traps need replacing more often than multidimensional stone, once built, so while she could afford to pay once for rock, she doesn't have the casting ability to replace any trap that breaks down or is permanently disabled, and I'd imagine dragging a high-level wizard to the North Pole for repairs is not the kind of thing you want to do on a regular basis, so all in all, it'd be a fairly bad idea to have thousands of traps you can't maintain yourself.

Now, could all that be brushed aside by author fiat just as he can brush aside the non-existance of a wormhole trap? Sure. She could have recruited a wizard to maintain the traps. But it doesn't quite fit the theme of the dungeon nor the personality of the creator. I am not yet willing to abandon the canonical idea of a temple of physical might in exchange for "she lied to herself in her own diary", which ultimately is my problem with any defence system that combines rogue and magical elements, both of which I'd imagine Kraagor would frown upon.

GW

What if: She decided to defend the Gate. Period. She was the fifth member, this was the fifth Gate. She lied (what, a rogue?) and said it would be a monument to physical might, like Kragor would have respected, but the whole thing is, as has been suggested, a giant shell game?

When you assume she really built it to be protected by pure physical prowess, you've accepted the terms of the game. And thereby lost already. The con isn't making you decide it's under this shell, it's making you decide it's under any shell at all.

All nicely foreshadowed by Team Evil at Azure City...

[Rogar Demonblud]

And already done by Team Girard at the prior Gate.

[Feruk]

What if: She decided to defend the Gate. Period. She was the fifth member, this was the fifth Gate. She lied (what, a rogue?) and said it would be a monument to physical might, like Kragor would have respected, but the whole thing is, as has been suggested, a giant shell game?

When you assume she really built it to be protected by pure physical prowess, you've accepted the terms of the game. And thereby lost already. The con isn't making you decide it's under this shell, it's making you decide it's under any shell at all.

All nicely foreshadowed by Team Evil at Azure City...

So your argument is that she happily lied to her encrypted journal about the defences, when a much better option exists if she would do that - simply give the wrong co-ordinates in that journal. Aim those co-ords at an old dungeon; we know that dungeons get squatting monsters, so there'll be stuff in there. Wrong co-ordinates plus actual defenses around the gate would be better. Wouldn't fit narratively due to time/space constraints, as well as having been done before with Girard, but it's more sensible than giving the right co-ords and wrong info about it.

Also, kind of done with Girard (Your gate is in another pyramid), though that was a bluff of it.

Also also, feels out of character for Serini. Not all rogues are secretive and distrustful; this one seems to have been very much a fan of working together from what little we've seen.

[Kornaki]

Aren't the wormholes basically the gate spell

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Aren't the wormholes basically the gate spell

No, they are nothing alike in their effects. Gates only move you between planes.

GW

[danielxcutter]

Which means he doesn't have Epic Mage Armour on 24/7. As the dialogue about dispelling suggests, Xykon doesn't make optimal choices all the time, and isn't made of epic spell slots; some of them he'd prefer to use on something cooler than defence.

With EMA on he has a minimum AC of like 36 or something I think, potentially higher.

That being said I think at least some of those hits can be explained away by high rolls. If this was actual D&D the Order would have gotten a TPK back in DStP.

Aren't the wormholes basically the gate spell

No, they are nothing alike in their effects. Gates only move you between planes.

GW

They look to be essentially the same except Wormhole only connects two points on different planes and Gate only works for interplanar travel.

[Kornaki]

Gate - opens a disk in space that lets you travel between two different points... On different planes

Wormhole - opens a disk in space that lets you travel between two different points... On the same plane.

They feel pretty similar. Mostly my point is the idea of a disk opening up and letting you travel between two points in space is not totally lacking from the dnd spell list. I agree wormhole is not gate, and since telepathic bond still works the thing here is not gate either, but it's not hard to imagine it's gate-like.

[KorvinStarmast]

I don't think it is in the SRD -

Thank you, and to the others, for helping me catch up. (You are right, not in SRD).

[bunsen_h]

Thank you, and to the others, for helping me catch up. (You are right, not in SRD).

danielxcutter seems to be correct:

[...] it looks like it was adapted from 2E Dark Sun.

Laurin's wormholes fit the description in a PDF of The Will and the Way, a Dark Sun 2E supplement, which I found on line. It's a violation of copyright, so I won't link to it.

[KorvinStarmast]

Laurin's wormholes fit the description in a PDF of The Will and the Way, a Dark Sun 2E supplement, which I found on line.

Psionics in 2e was a bit hit or miss, but it was certainly an important part of Dark Sun. Thanks.

[danielxcutter]

danielxcutter seems to be correct:

Laurin's wormholes fit the description in a PDF of The Will and the Way, a Dark Sun 2E supplement, which I found on line. It's a violation of copyright, so I won't link to it.

That was half a lucky guess IIRC; I remembered it being mentioned in a discussion about 2E when I was looking for it a while back, and I think I assumed it must have been from Dark Sun considering that one's the main psionic setting.

Psionics in 2e was a bit hit or miss, but it was certainly an important part of Dark Sun. Thanks.

Re: hit or miss - I found this on one of the earlier threads:

Many people have already seen this extended metaphor for 3.0 psionics but I should not waste an opportunity to inflict it on someone who may have missed it

Spoiler

Show

I have used this model before, but to really appreciate how this "class feature" worked you should see how it would apply if ported to mainstream D&D where they haven't been conditioned to accept inferior mechanics without question. Lets take the big sacred moo, a Cleric's undead turning ability:

DM: "Before we get started, Cleric, I just want you to know that I am instituting some changes in your turn undead class feature that will make your class more different and give it a unique divine mechanic."

Player: "OK. How does it work now?"

DM: "Well, for starters, when you attempt to turn undead you will now have to burn a spell."

Player: "A spell???? What level?"

DM: "Different levels. It depends on what turning mode you want to use. Sanctified Gesture takes a level 1, Divine Dance of Power takes a level 2, High Holly Homina Homina takes a level 3, and...."

Player: "Wait, I assume I will get a bonus on the roll based on the level of spell slot I sacrifice?"

DM: "Sometimes you will. Other times you will get a penalty based on the turning defense mode the opponent selects. Turning and turning defense modes will interact on a table. The table determines the actual DC of the roll, not the level of the spell slot burned. Choosing a given defense mode may actually mean you pay a spell to get a penalty on the save, but it will still be better than being defenseless."

Player: "The undead will get defense modes?"

DM: "Sure, so will you. Each round you will select a turning attack mode and a defense mode. In fact, you will need to select a defense mode against each undead opponent each and every round and each will cost you spell slots."

Player: "Wwwwwwhat????!!!!!! What if I am facing undead who do not cast spells, I assume they won't get to mount a defense?"

DM: "It doesn't matter if you face undead without casting ability because their turning and turning defense modes are free."

Player: "Wait a minute! This is stupid! One of my 3rd level spell slots could be spent on Searing Light which fries undead; why would I ever spend it on an attack mode that might help me on a turning attempt? And why would I ever take a turning defense mode, much less a separate one vs. each undead opponent? I would simply choose to ignore undead or cast spells against them or go at them with weapons. I would have to have brain damage to choose to turn with these rules!"

DM: "If you fail to mount a defense then each unblocked undead gets a special +8 bonus to hit you for having this wonderful class feature and choosing not to use it. They also get to drain your stats if they hit. This will apply also to anyone who adds a level of Cleric; multiclassing will be very flavorful."

Player: "But I am a spellcaster, I need to be able to cast spells. How can I do my job if my spell slots get sucked away every time we run into undead?"

DM: "Well, how can you do your job if you are dead or reduced to a mindless state? You need to use your spells this way or you may not live long enough to cast them anyway."

Player: Head down, silently weeping into his hands.

DM: "I should mention too that you will be able to make turn undead attempts vs. nonundead; if you succeed they will be stunned for a few rounds. Of course, everyone who does not have this feature will get a huge bonus on the save DC. The best part: If you blow a 5th level spell to use High Holy Hokey Pokey then everyone in a large area could be stunned for a long while and they don't get a bonus vs. this one mode -- that makes the entire system usable and balanced."

Player: "They should all be stunned if they ever see me willingly use these rules. This is preposterous! I need my spells to heal and buff and perform all the functions of a Cleric. How am I going to be of any use to the party if I hemorrhage spell slots every time we run into undead?"

DM: "That is the beauty of it: You get to choose whether to use your spell slots as they were intended or save your own hide by using them to turn. Come on and at least give it a chance. It will be a mechanic unique to your class so it must be a benefit. You don't want to be just another spellcaster do you? This will add so much flavor and.... Hey! Get him off of me!"

Player: "How ya like that fist flavor?"

As for integral, I've heard that the gods are dead or gone(so no divine magic) and arcane magic either works by making the crapsack setting even worse or by being mistaken for it and getting lynched. It sounds interesting, especially since 3.5e psionics are at least decently powerful, but if I wanted to play something grimdark I'd probably go learn NWoD or WH40K.

[The Shadow]

I've always wondered about the Oracle's prophecy for Belkar's death. If the gods can't let their followers know about the Snarl, that should include any visions Tiamat sends the Oracle. Which would also mean that any consequences of the Snarl's interference would also have to be withheld from the visions, such as say, Belkar failing to die.

Given that the Oracle can break the fourth wall at will, I don't think he has much to worry about.

[Mic_128]

I'm not suggesting it is outside the realm of possibility. I very much believe it is a perfectly plausible explanation based on the evidence so far. But we also know that Dorukan's choice of contractors forced him to cut corners on dungeon design, so they didn't have infinite money. Traps need replacing more often than multidimensional stone, once built, so while she could afford to pay once for rock, she doesn't have the casting ability to replace any trap that breaks down or is permanently disabled, and I'd imagine dragging a high-level wizard to the North Pole for repairs is not the kind of thing you want to do on a regular basis, so all in all, it'd be a fairly bad idea to have thousands of traps you can't maintain yourself.

So maybe she can maintain the traps? Either by herself or with something bought from a wizard. Or trap maintenance is just simply handwaved by plot convenience. I can't imagine we'll find out she spent a lot of time on the maintenance of the paint on all those doors.

And if a trap is permanently destroyed by adventurers, I think she's got greater worries than having to reset one trap.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Or trap maintenance is just simply handwaved by plot convenience.

This reason can be applied to excuse any and all issues with any form of speculation. Rendering discussion of it superfluous. It doesn't change the core problem I already outlined.

GW

[Mic_128]

This reason can be applied to excuse any and all issues with any form of speculation. Rendering discussion of it superfluous. It doesn't change the core problem I already outlined.

GW

Fair enough.

I'm not familiar with 3.5E enough, but does it mention how often traps require maintenance?

[danielxcutter]

Fair enough.

I'm not familiar with 3.5E enough, but does it mention how often traps require maintenance?

Not by RAW.

[skim172]

Fair enough.

I'm not familiar with 3.5E enough, but does it mention how often traps require maintenance?

The dungeon and trap maintenance industry is one of the biggest employers in any fantasy world's economy.

[Dion]

The dungeon and trap maintenance industry is one of the biggest employers in any fantasy world's economy.

Just imagine the expense of resetting all the traps that Indiana Jones set off before the credits. No wonder they were chasing him.

“You owe us $35 million to reset all the traps you just destroyed!l”

Edit: also, can epic level rogues build magical traps without the help of a wizard?

[hamishspence]

Edit: also, can epic level rogues build magical traps without the help of a wizard?

Not as far as I know. Anyone with Craft (trapmaking) can build a trap - but a magic trap requires the assistance of a spell caster if you are not one yourself.

[Dion]

Not as far as I know. Anyone with Craft (trapmaking) can build a trap - but a magic trap requires the assistance of a spell caster if you are not one yourself.

Oh wow, that seems really impractical.

I wonder if a magical trap wears out like a piece of stone over millennia, or like a piece of wood over decades, or like a banana.

[locksmith of lo]

Edit: also, can epic level rogues build magical traps without the help of a wizard?

apparently the caster needs the craft wondrous item feat, which needs caster lvl 3, and cast the spell for the magic part. so i suppose it is possible, but you start doing pretzel logic to make it work.

[Rogar Demonblud]

There comes a certain point where you just throw the rules out the window and go with it. Trapmaking is one of those points.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

There comes a certain point where you just throw the rules out the window and go with it. Trapmaking is one of those points.

So was the exed-out eyes to indicate death being noticed by the characters in-comic in the pre-plot days, and yet the author chose consistency of detail over sticking to the rules. Twice we have seen that these gate-defending dungeons needed substantial funds poured into it and continued maintenance to keep them going. I do not believe that Rich would suddenly change his mind about that reality and decide that this dungeon has infinitely self-repairing traps.

GW

[Rogar Demonblud]

A teleportation circle reactivates ten minutes after it is disabled, so it's already in the rules that it is 'infinitely self-repairing'.

[bunsen_h]

A teleportation circle reactivates ten minutes after it is disabled, so it's already in the rules that it is 'infinitely self-repairing'.

I take that to mean one that has been disabled via "Disable Device". It could be destroyed permanently by other means -- Thog smash runes with hammer, for example.

Couldn't Serini have a Widget of Magical Trap Setting? Some kind of charged item that she could get charged up by a wizard, rather than having to haul them out to the North Pole?

[Saint-Just]

Re: hit or miss - I found this on one of the earlier threads:

I haven't played 2e but I am under impression that psionics were not that bad, merely overly complex and finicky. 3.0 made it worse.

As for integral, I've heard that the gods are dead or gone(so no divine magic) and arcane magic either works by making the crapsack setting even worse or by being mistaken for it and getting lynched. It sounds interesting, especially since 3.5e psionics are at least decently powerful, but if I wanted to play something grimdark I'd probably go learn NWoD or WH40K.

Gods are not there to be reached, forces of nature still are. Clerics worship elements. Druids are druids. Rangers also get spells as usual. In fact if you are interested in divine magic and not divine itself it's probably the least changed part of the Dark Sun. Oh, and there are templars (get divine magic by paying obeisance to sorcerer-kings who are at least technically not gods and who cannot cast divine magic themselves, and obviously they all are *******s). Have a lot of class abilities which are about being a good State Security officer - you can commandeer slaves, get your own security detail, arrest a commoner at this level, arrest a nobleman at that level, and for all the fact that official 3.5 conversion calls it (Ex) it's not extraordinary at all, it's just pulling rank. Preservers (good arcanists) are pretty much standard wizards, Defilers (crapsackers) are supposed to be about UNLIMITED POWAH but actual effects are kinda meh.

I think that the most striking detail it how much grim is emphasized over dark (in other settings it usually the other way around). Transhuman sorcerer-kings, who make the slaves toil till they die, appease barely-surviving commoners with the blood spectacles in the arenas end employ all-powerful police who are willing to torture suspects till they provide useful information or die and will frame you for money or advancement - eh, seen it done. But slaves who have broke their shackles and gathered in tribes hiding out in the desert.... and who view any freeborn as a legitimate target and who make new arrivals to pass a period of "novitiate" after which they are either accepted or killed, because they know about the hideout so they cannot be left alive if they are not a part of a tribe. Or Veiled Alliance, an organization of Preservers, working to kill the Defilers, undermine the power of sorcerer-kings... and who are supposed to operate on a cell basis, so you get your orders not nothing from where and for what reasons, or maybe even formulate and give orders, not knowing to whom, oh and they also do not accept resignation in the same fashions as the slave tribes. Etc. It all makes total sense for people faced with absolutely overwhelming power. I fecking like it and I am still not sure if I could play in the game with by-the-book Dark Sun.

[danielxcutter]

I haven't played 2e but I am under impression that psionics were not that bad, merely overly complex and finicky. 3.0 made it worse.

3.0e psionics were apparently weird, yeah.

Gods are not there to be reached, forces of nature still are. Clerics worship elements. Druids are druids. Rangers also get spells as usual. In fact if you are interested in divine magic and not divine itself it's probably the least changed part of the Dark Sun. Oh, and there are templars (get divine magic by paying obeisance to sorcerer-kings who are at least technically not gods and who cannot cast divine magic themselves, and obviously they all are *******s). Have a lot of class abilities which are about being a good State Security officer - you can commandeer slaves, get your own security detail, arrest a commoner at this level, arrest a nobleman at that level, and for all the fact that official 3.5 conversion calls it (Ex) it's not extraordinary at all, it's just pulling rank. Preservers (good arcanists) are pretty much standard wizards, Defilers (crapsackers) are supposed to be about UNLIMITED POWAH but actual effects are kinda meh.

I’m guessing that Sanctified Mind is hardly an option then... phooey.

I think that the most striking detail it how much grim is emphasized over dark (in other settings it usually the other way around). Transhuman sorcerer-kings, who make the slaves toil till they die, appease barely-surviving commoners with the blood spectacles in the arenas end employ all-powerful police who are willing to torture suspects till they provide useful information or die and will frame you for money or advancement - eh, seen it done. But slaves who have broke their shackles and gathered in tribes hiding out in the desert.... and who view any freeborn as a legitimate target and who make new arrivals to pass a period of "novitiate" after which they are either accepted or killed, because they know about the hideout so they cannot be left alive if they are not a part of a tribe. Or Veiled Alliance, an organization of Preservers, working to kill the Defilers, undermine the power of sorcerer-kings... and who are supposed to operate on a cell basis, so you get your orders not nothing from where and for what reasons, or maybe even formulate and give orders, not knowing to whom, oh and they also do not accept resignation in the same fashions as the slave tribes. Etc. It all makes total sense for people faced with absolutely overwhelming power. I fecking like it and I am still not sure if I could play in the game with by-the-book Dark Sun.

I’m not quite sure what you mean “more grim than dark”, and also I don’t feel I’d like it much either. If I play D&D I probably want to leave a mark on the world.

[Rogar Demonblud]

If you want to read the manual the box set is on sale at Drive Thru. They even have POD options if you dislike eInk.