OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[bunsen_h]

Not even that, I wager. They're not even going to see the heroes when they throw open the door, Xykon will make some comment about tipping the heroes off on it, and the good guys are going to realize what's going on.

Elan was right a few comics ago, this is way too early for the climactic battle, too many other plots in the air.

There's still the confusion between the two dungeons that the Order has entered, with a pending argument on their having taken some other route entirely.

If they find more than one dungeon with a marked door that has monsters in it still I think Redcloak at least will start to smell a rat. Is the dungeon that the good guys have just gone into marked, did anyone notice?

Yes; double doors, two 'X's. "Dead" eyes.

That's from old black and white film noir detective movies. They usually start with the detective giving a monologue to himself in his office, when a mysterious woman walks in with a case.

I don't know any specific titles, since I've never seen any originals, but it's very frequently parodied in sci-fi and in cartoons. The various Star Trek series did several holodeck episodes where the officers would be cos-playing it in the holodeck.

And the Calvin and Hobbes strips with "Tracer Bullet".

[Ave]

Also confirmation that Monster Hollow replenishes monsters in some magical way.

Nope, it is confirmation that the Monster in the Darkness marked a random door as "already seen".

[Fyraltari]

Nope, it is confirmation that the Monster in the Darkness marked a random door as "already seen".

How many monsters get to adulthood in a few months?

[gatemansgc]

I can understand why Blackwing is the most fun to write.

the fact that V can't sigh telepathically so they ask blackwing to imagine them sighing XD

[Malloon]

I would say that "the team" is part of the subset "people entering the dungeon".

and "Could" is such a vague noncomittal statement, you can apply it to everything. Technically, what we see also didn't rule out that people who enter the dungeon couldn't have their art style changed to be 3d renderings.

I think you're misunderstanding. I'm fairly sure dancrilis meant that this rules out that disabling the trap sends you to a different plane, but that it still might do so if you trigger it. Since there is a theory floating around that the trap is a portal (which may send you to a different plane), it's helpful to note that that has not, in fact, just been disproven.

Also, "could" has several meanings or implications. The first is a bare possibility, but it's also often used in cases where the event is, if not likely, at least likely enough to be considered. Some people make this clear by saying "a real possibility", but that isn't necessary.

[FlyingSealion]

Once again Redcloak proves himself to be the holder of at least 2 of Team Evil's 3 collective braincells.........which is kinda sad when you think about it

Anyways, good stuff!

[locksmith of lo]

i was just wondering... how long does it take to dismiss and resummon a familiar? i mean, is it a difficult thing?

[Petrocorus]

At best they could incapacitate Redcloak (killing him works against them)

I don't think it would works against them.
If RC dies, it will impede or at least delay the possibility for Xykon to take over the gate. He might want to destroy it out of spite, but he's more likely to try to put the Cloak on another goblinoid cleric. It's not like he was that much in a hurry.

And if (parts of) the Order survives, they may have more chance to be able to talk sense to this new Cloak bearer than to RC.

..and either might rely on the MitD choosing now to step in and help the good guys. .

I'm not sure MitD is really ready to switch side, not ready enough at least to do it in the absence of O-Chul.

[dancrilis]

How many monsters get to adulthood in a few months?

Outside of some creatures monster ecology is not overly explored in DnD - however many monsters in DnD do not travel in packs, and many who do are also found as solitary creatures.

The implication is that they reach maturity fast otherwise DMs would need stats for adolescent forst worms etc.

[Peelee]

i was just wondering... how long does it take to dismiss and resummon a familiar? i mean, is it a difficult thing?

3m5 doesn't have dismissing and summoning familiar. 5e familiar are very different.

[dancrilis]

3m5 doesn't have dismissing and summoning familiar.

It kindof does:

A familiar is a normal animal that gains new powers and becomes a magical beast when summoned to service by a sorcerer or wizard.
...
A sorcerer can obtain a familiar. Doing so takes 24 hours and uses up magical materials that cost 100 gp.
...
If the familiar dies or is dismissed by the sorcerer, the sorcerer must attempt a DC 15 Fortitude saving throw. Failure means he loses 200 experience points per sorcerer level; success reduces the loss to one-half that amount. However, a sorcerer’s experience point total can never go below 0 as the result of a familiar’s demise or dismissal. A slain or dismissed familiar cannot be replaced for a year and day. A slain familiar can be raised from the dead just as a character can be, and it does not lose a level or a Constitution point when this happy event occurs.

Source.

But is is not summoning or dismissing like a spell would be.

[Peelee]

It kindof does:

Source.

But is is not summoning or dismissing like a spell would be.

True, but I read "dismiss and resummon" in the way 5e treats familiars.

[Riftwolf]

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But... The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Plan is heavily dependent on everything working exactly as intended. He just learned that's not happening.

[Kaemon]

Without reading any of the comments, here is my guess: In the upcoming comics, we will see Team Evil go in the same door as the heroes... and be seen and heard by the heroes... but they won't see nor hear them, as the "active trap" will make their side of the entrance connect with a different corridor/dungeon.

[PontificatusRex]

So, seems like the big question is "How successful was Belkar at concealing their tracks?"

[Fyraltari]

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But... The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

You are adding a lot of intensity that simply isn't there. Redcloak noticed an issue and is going through a few possible explanations. His mind went to mistake before "ennemy action" probably because this isn't the first time there was something odd about the marked doors.

[FlyingSealion]

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But... The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

What are you talking about? Isn't blue-screening a normal reaction to something like this?

[137beth]

I'm guessing Redcloak will figure out the deal with MitD in the near future, but Xykon and Oona won't believe him.

[Fish]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

But could he have predicted that V would be able to invoke... SONIC??

[CountDVB]

The Plan is heavily dependent on everything working exactly as intended. He just learned that's not happening.

Yeah, that's the thing. People forget that Redcloak is still basically a goblin teenager, even if one trumatized and slightly learning from his mistakes. Hence why he's stubborn and refusing to admit he's wrong.

Also I wonder if even Redcloak would suspect MitD. I don't think even he would.

[Velaryon]

I'm pretty certain that restoring the trap severed the link. Actually no. Rereading it that is possible but uncertain. I initially interpreted, "Hey! Uh, hey, everyone? No more joking around...", as Blackwing trying to tell them but being a bit weirded out by a lack of response. But I don't think that is clear, that could be something that is happening but the party could be acting off of Blackwings info in panel six. Just nobody explicitly acknowledges that Xykon and company are almost there. And Heroinism and Stoneskin have long enough durations that they don't need to worry about them running out before the fight.

I read Blackwing's "No more joking around" comment as him letting the party know that he's getting serious now, not playing around like he was a moment before. I don't think it's indicative of him having lost contact with the others. Right now, I'm of the belief that setting off the trap probably takes you somewhere else (whether that's another plane or elsewhere on this one), whereas bypassing it like Haley did lets you continue down the actual tunnel.

[Wraithfighter]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

Roy might be able to pull a Spellsplinter Maneuver once at the climax, but if my suspicions are correct and it works similarly to Mage Slayer or the like then only narrative causality would make it work; even Durkula was able to cast through it once and Xykon’s much stronger.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Unless I'm mistaken, Durkula never cast a spell through it, he just made the concentration check on a standard attack while he was casting.

Either way, it really is immaterial. We haven't really had a climactic victory by the heroes ever that's been something that'd be replicated in gameplay terms only, every single major victory by the heroes has largely come down to, well, the characters themselves. Durkon ending the summit with in-universe rules lawyers, Durkon talking Durkula to death, Belkar's rage thing giving him a second wind, V using Sabine's intel about Laurin to convince her to flee the field, not to mention the countless lucky breaks (like the trapped hallway going basically perfectly for the heroes or Belkar being just not dead enough to be awakened by the Protection from Evil effect activated by Mr. Scruff's pawing)...

It's a story first and foremost, the way the D&D rules are implemented are going to service the story. My point's just that it's not outright impossible for the OOTS to beat Team Evil right now. That's not how it's going to happen, because that'd make for a bad story, but they're about as powerful as a group as one could reasonably expect a group of plucky heroes to be at the end of a long campaign.

[BruceGee]

If Haley removing the skull resets a teleportation trap, and they've actually gone elsewhere, then why do they still see the same door that they came through on the other side? After all, we know that the doors aren't all identical.

I suppose you could have an invisible teleportation portal that allows light to pass through it, but teleports matter. But it seems weird.

[Fyraltari]

If Haley removing the skull resets a teleportation trap, and they've actually gone elsewhere, then why do they still see the same door that they came through on the other side? After all, we know that the doors aren't all identical.

I suppose you could have an invisible teleportation portal that allows light to pass through it, but teleports matter. But it seems weird.

Either they weren't teleported* or the spells default to the last corridor it was used from.

*The most likely explanation since Haley tinkered with the trap.

[Goblin_Priest]

I'm pretty certain that restoring the trap severed the link. Actually no. Rereading it that is possible but uncertain. I initially interpreted, "Hey! Uh, hey, everyone? No more joking around...", as Blackwing trying to tell them but being a bit weirded out by a lack of response. But I don't think that is clear, that could be something that is happening but the party could be acting off of Blackwings info in panel six. Just nobody explicitly acknowledges that Xykon and company are almost there. And Heroinism and Stoneskin have long enough durations that they don't need to worry about them running out before the fight.

It looks like Roy's ordering the buffs in response to blackwing's intel, but you are correct that it is presented in an ambiguous manner, and that the link may indeed be severed from the moment they re-armed the trap.

[pendell]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

Well, okay, Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[factotum]

I'm guessing Redcloak will figure out the deal with MitD in the near future, but Xykon and Oona won't believe him.

It's unclear why he would, though? Even if he figures out that doors are getting marked that shouldn't be, then given how childish the MitD generally seems to be, he'd probably mark it up to a genuine error or stupidity rather than an active attempt to block what they're doing.

[Inle-rah]

Anyone else read Roy and Durkon's expressions as being (still) very pissed at each other? Disunity sounds like a big handicap right now. I wonder if they're having a heated telepathic argument with each other that we the viewers aren't privy to.

[Saint-Just]

Well, okay, Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

He has behaved quite intelligently when dwarves was hiding, and I do not see how he could demonstrate his intelligence in other strips. I hope you don't expect him to think for Xykon and\or Oona?