OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[Ghosty]

...Every encounter they had was a total loss. They lost the soul splice duel, they barely handled a single 9th level spell slot in the desert (Elemental) and sure there were some extenuating circumstances, if they go into battle with team evil now they are pretty much guaranteed to lose.

Things will need to change, the party will need to upgrade and most likely team evil will have to go through some changes before they can get to a fight (Most likely Redcloak's obvious side switching)



P.S
I have to say, while Redcloak guessing a door was marked by accident is certainly a good guess and is far more likely of him to think of that than actual sabotage from the Monster in the Dark.

Still pondering if he won't question someone else sabotaging their efforts. Like maybe Durkon has been around more than he told him.

Or the Bugbear Village. Consider, Team Evil has been speed running these dungeons of late, doing upwards of four and five per night. Oona says it normally takes months to restock one dungeon. Might therefore TE possibly think that the Bugbears are messing with TE's tally, so TE doesn't deplete every dungeon and the Village starves?

The Order has seriously upgraded since that desert debacle, FWIW. Mainly, they trust and work with one another now. They synergize their strengths and address their weaknesses. Which is the most important lesson they as a whole have learned.

Plus, they've better stuff and feats now: Belkar's dagger, Bloodfeast, and Pro. Evil clasp; Roy's Spellsplinter and gigantic bag of buffs from that Weapon of Legacy stuff: Durkon's fully upgraded Hammer of Thunderbolts; V's likely 9th level casting; and so on.

Xykon is seriously overpowered, and RedCloak is no slouch. But the Order are a whole lot more formidable now than they used to be.

[Fish]

If Haley removing the skull resets a teleportation trap, and they've actually gone elsewhere, then why do they still see the same door that they came through on the other side? After all, we know that the doors aren't all identical.

Look at it from the other side. If they can still see the same door that they came through, then the easiest solution is that they didn't get teleported.

Hypothesis:

Suppose if you cross the trap traveling inward from the entrance, you (and light) get teleported to some Location X; if you disable the trap, you don't, and you step into Actual Corridor A. (That seems like a reasonable default.) When the trap is re-enabled, it doesn't necessarily teleport everything already within Actual Corridor A off to Location X.

Further suppose that if you look from the entrance into the tunnel, the trap causes you to see the destination dungeon, not ACA. If you look the other way, from the hall toward the door, you see the real entrance and real door — the trap only distorts light and travel in one direction.

Whereas Location X might be somewhere else entirely and you'd never know it, Actual Corridor A (ACA) is the short length of hallway leading away in a straight line from the actual chasm. ACA might not even be that long, or contain anything at all. Roy commented that there wouldn't be much room for a full dungeon behind each doorway, because the halls would overlap each other.

It now seems obvious that one of the main functions for Serini's "multi-dimensional stone" is to force parties to pass by the trap line. They cannot bypass by phasing through the walls.

[pendell]

Anyone else read Roy and Durkon's expressions as being (still) very pissed at each other? Disunity sounds like a big handicap right now. I wonder if they're having a heated telepathic argument with each other that we the viewers aren't privy to.

I don't read "angry with each other". That looks like concern; they know they're about to fight an epic-level enemy and its party, and they know they aren't prepared for it. Roy isn't terrified, but he is concerned to try to get everything as right as possible before the thing starts.

At this point I don't think anyone has any brain cycles to spare for Durkon's little adventure. Either they will win, in which case all will be forgiven, or they'll all die, in which case, again, there's no point in arguing.

Of course, neither outcome is going to happen but I think Roy and Durkon are totally consumed with dealing with the immediate threat at the moment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Resileaf]

My money is still on the trap being a portal.

[dancrilis]

I don't read "angry with each other". That looks like concern; they know they're about to fight an epic-level enemy and its party, and they know they aren't prepared for it. Roy isn't terrified, but he is concerned to try to get everything as right as possible before the thing starts.

At this point I don't think anyone has any brain cycles to spare for Durkon's little adventure. Either they will win, in which case all will be forgiven, or they'll all die, in which case, again, there's no point in arguing.

Of course, neither outcome is going to happen but I think Roy and Durkon are totally consumed with dealing with the immediate threat at the moment.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

That however does not account for them pseudo frowning at each other in panel 6.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

Err... yes, he is. The disconnect is that his problem at hand is not the same as TE's problem at hand. His problem is that when the icy jaws of death come, there won't have been enough treats. Everything he is doing is at least ameliorating the problem by ensuring the continued arrival of treats.

Nod. Get treat.

Grey Wolf

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

[Finagle]

I don't think the dungeons are magically repopulating. It's just a reference to if a dungeon is cleared out by adventurers, that a bunch of new monsters will move in. It's just the nature of dungeons. That they're in the north pole? Bah ha ha, logic means nothing to dungeon denizens. You should see PCs get upset and tear their hair out that dungeons don't have water sources or crops growing outside the entrance.

Wait... Team Evil cleared out an entire high level dungeon in two or three minutes? 47 seconds since closing the door, Haley took a minute to disable the trap, unclear how long Durkon and Minrah were in stone but the Order was seemingly running down the cliff right after hearing the maximized fireball explode, so not *that* long.

Yeah, I had a problem with that too. It should take hours to clear a dungeon. The mapping, the trap clearing (how does Team Evil disarm traps, anyway?), the combat, the looting...it all takes a while. Even for a dungeon that is nothing but a single encounter room.

[Resileaf]

Yeah, I had a problem with that too. It should take hours to clear a dungeon. The mapping, the trap clearing (how does Team Evil disarm traps, anyway?), the combat, the looting...it all takes a while. Even for a dungeon that is nothing but a single encounter room.

Nobody said they cleared the dungeon. All they have to do is kill the first encounter and leave since it's clear the dwarves didn't go that way.

And to answer your question, Team Evil disarms traps by triggering them and tanking the effects with massive buff use.

[Ghosty]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either...

...If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Agree with your last---though I think I'd have flipped the table and left before then, Settlers of Catan-style. Still fun to read and discuss, obviously.

Sunburst, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death, Destruction (?), Durkon's Hammer, Roy's Sword, the Paladins Smiting Evil if they ever show up again. The Order doesn't lack for things to cause damage to Xykon. The question, obviously, is how to do enough damage to turn him off before he totally mows down their team. It's a tall order.

On another point, I don't think killing RedCloak is a reasonable possibility. Thor et al, need a 9th level spell from that quiddity. RedCloak is it for that possibility. Kill him and Rez him---assuming he even comes back, or that he's killed in a manner where Rez is possible---and will he lose enough XP to drop below 17th Level?

[Thermophille]

It's unclear why he would, though? Even if he figures out that doors are getting marked that shouldn't be, then given how childish the MitD generally seems to be, he'd probably mark it up to a genuine error or stupidity rather than an active attempt to block what they're doing.

Considering that he's been adding ~3 extra doors every day since they arrived? Redcloak has already noticed the number of doors and found it odd. He'll quickly come to the conclusion that this isn't unique, and that more than a couple doors have been incorrectly marked.

Assuming he doesn't jump to the conclusion that the dwarves did it (since he knows why Durkon showed up, and doesn't have a reason to think that a LG dwarf cleric would use that kind of deception), he would quickly conclude that MitD has been consistently marking incorrect dorways.

From there, he only has to rememeber the number of suspicious things MitD has said in the comic so far (telling them not to kill the order, trying to call Xykon's attention away from the additional doors) along with his general not-super-evil-ness, concluding that MitD is working against him is not farfetched.

How quickly he reaches that conclusion is a much more interesting question now, since I see no reason to believe that he will get there eventually.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Team Evil disarms traps by triggering them and tanking the effects with massive buff use.

Yes, the good ol' Cleric Feather Fall spell.

GW

[GeoffWatson]

Considering that he's been adding ~3 extra doors every day since they arrived? Redcloak has already noticed the number of doors and found it odd. He'll quickly come to the conclusion that this isn't unique, and that more than a couple doors have been incorrectly marked.

Assuming he doesn't jump to the conclusion that the dwarves did it (since he knows why Durkon showed up, and doesn't have a reason to think that a LG dwarf cleric would use that kind of deception), he would quickly conclude that MitD has been consistently marking incorrect dorways.

From there, he only has to rememeber the number of suspicious things MitD has said in the comic so far (telling them not to kill the order, trying to call Xykon's attention away from the additional doors) along with his general not-super-evil-ness, concluding that MitD is working against him is not farfetched.

How quickly he reaches that conclusion is a much more interesting question now, since I see no reason to believe that he will get there eventually.

The MitD only did the marking some of the time. In 1039 he asks to do the paint "this time", which implies the others did it most of the time.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The fact the number of marked doors has apparently been rocketing up to the point RC thinks they're tackling up to six a day would seem to indicate the MITD has been painting more regularly of late.

[Petrocorus]

Anyone else read Roy and Durkon's expressions as being (still) very pissed at each other? Disunity sounds like a big handicap right now. I wonder if they're having a heated telepathic argument with each other that we the viewers aren't privy to.

I really don't read this. For me, Roy is annoyed, not really "pissed off", and Durkon is much more sorry than pissed.
I think they will work together just fine now. Roy will just throw some quibs at Durkon here and there and Durkon will try to convince the Order to take RC alive.

And they can try to kill and raise RC. He probably above level 17.

[KorvinStarmast]

Current prediction is that TE will come in through the door, and just when the Order is revving up to charge, the trap activates again, teleporting them elsewhere.

My notional two dollar bet is against that plane shifting shenannigans. Redcloak and Xykon would have noticed stuff like that long before this, based on their rate of dungeon / door entries.

So, Blackwings starting monologue... what is it parodying? It sound awfully familiar. It is a bit like Rorschach's journal entries from Watchmen, but the reference to the kid and the wife seem to be very un-Rorschachlike.

I can see the ref, but it looks like standard film noir fare to me...

Haley and Elan are almost sickenly sweet though.

They are young, good looking, and in love; they can't help it.

I'm guessing Redcloak will figure out the deal with MitD in the near future, but Xykon and Oona won't believe him.

A notional two dollar bet for this; Redcloak's gears will grind and he'll get closer to the truth, and they won't want to hear it.

[Rogan]

My notional two dollar bet is against that plane shifting shenannigans. Redcloak and Xykon would have noticed stuff like that long before this, based on their rate of dungeon / door entries.

They can't notice anything that does not happen. My theory still is the following:
Bypassing the trap activated an portal effect. The floor changed color, since they are not in the real dungeon anymore. That is, the dungeon located behind the door.
Team Evil will (if they happen to find the door despite the tracks being hidden) not see the Order. The order is on the other side of a portal and this portal seems to be still active in one direction, so the Order can see the door. But it's no longer active in the other direction, so Team Evil can not follow them.

[Thrillhouse]

The fact that it takes months for the monsters to regenerate causes me to think that the monster regenerating may in fact be as low tech as what Serini did the first time (here: https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), plus a few invisibility spells.

[KorvinStarmast]

That however does not account for them pseudo frowning at each other in panel 6.

Not seeing what you are seeing in panel 6.
(1) Roy is addressing all of the spell casters, and he's deadly serious since they are prepping for a fight with the BBEG/Xykon.
(2) Durkon isn't even frowning; he's on task, focused on his spell casting. He too has on a serious face for a serious situation.
(3) Likewise with V: same expression as Durkon's but you didn't call V out for frowning at Roy.
(4) Notice also Minrah's serious expression: I don't see you calling her out as frowning at Haley.
(5) If you look at the edge of the panel, the same kind of serious expression as Minrah's is on Belkar's face.
(6) Even Elan's face is indicative of concentrating on getting his preprations right.

So here's my take on panel 6: they all have their game face on except for Haley, but she's still subject to the "in love" bit. (It seemed to me that she was the sky writer here)

[Riftwolf]

You are adding a lot of intensity that simply isn't there.

Some intensity may have been added for comic effect.

And I don't think I'm too far off. Xykons telling him to zip it which suggests he's been bothering on the door mark for at least one other speech bubble. And it's not like it's a hard puzzle; the dwarves planned their escape route (and even told him so), which involved pre-marking a door, leading Team Evil into it, then escaping while they were distracted.
Just because its the wrong conclusion doesn't mean its not an easy one to jump to.
(Also saw someone comment on the lawfulness of Dwarves, which I doubt Redcloak would put much trust in.)

[dancrilis]

(3) Likewise with V: same expression as Durkon's but you didn't call V out for frowning at Roy.
(4) Notice also Minrah's serious expression: I don't see you calling her out as frowning at Haley.

You are reading Durkon's eyebrows as the same as Vaarsuvius's and Minrah's? Fair enough to each their own, I am seeing a difference.

[Thermophille]

Rereading this strip, is it weird that the thing that bugs me the most is that Xykon's last line doesn't roll of the tongue? 'Heh' would have flowed with his sentence much better than 'Haha'.

[Mr. Wonderful]

A notional two dollar bet for this; Redcloak's gears will grind and he'll get closer to the truth, and they won't want to hear it.

The clearest path to the world being saved is that Redcloak gets closer to the truth on all sorts of things.

But how? He's been presented with the truth by Durkon and flat out rejected it. What would cause him to reconsider? It would have to be something very significant, quite possibly prompted by a battle with the Order.

• The Order could get the drop on them such that X bails and Durkon convinces them to spare RC
• X grabs RC and bails, leaving Oona to die, causing RC to reconsider Durkon's arguments
• Oona could hold off the Order while the others escape
• Lots of other things the clever people on this forum can come up with

In each case it isn't the final encounter or anything close to it. But it would change the power dynamic, and more importantly, Redcloak's point of view.

[WanderingMist]

Trouble Approaching!

In which Redcloak jumps to the correct conclusion without exhausting every conceivable and inconceivable possibility!

That's not the correct conclusion. The correct conclusion is "sabotage".

Yes, yes, that's the only logical conclusion, because the other logical conclusion- that the wrong door was marked deliberately- would have such profoundly unacceptable implications! Namely, that the Marker in the Darkness is actively working against your goals for some reason, which would possibly make him the Mole in the Darkness! (Yes, I'm just seeing how many variations on MitD I can get away with in one paragraph before the theme falls apart.)

Just reviewing again - seems from the looks on panel 6 that their might still be some bad blood between Roy and Durkon, which is to be expected but nice artistic touch I think.

I think you're overthinking and they've just got their ready-to-go faces on.

I am not sure why it hasn't been mentioned but this could mean that the Mitd´s plan has been noticed. Let's hope Redcloak doesn't realize who the perpetrator is.

It's been "noticed", but the only person who cared believed it was error, not intentional.

Anyone else think Redcloak was a bit *too* Lawful?
But...The door was marked! IT WAS MARKED. Its inconceivable there would be monsters behind it! Inconceivable! It's not like we were literally led to that door by two enemies who then did a bait-and-switch on us! There is no earthly possibility, no elementary deduction, no conceivable reality! I'M THIS CLOSE TO BLUE-SCREENING OVER HERE (paraphrased)

I don't think that's what the worry mark on Redcloak's right eye means. I think it just means he realizes if even a single door has been marked incorrectly, then they have to restart the entire search.

[Kantaki]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

I mean, Team Evil consists of who?
Wrongeye and Big X?
Obviously Reddy got all the brains here.
Xykon's got scooped out as part of his weight loss plan.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Interesting development here. Not suprising, of course, that Redcloak noticed a door was improperly marked, but I do wonder how long it will take him to come to the correct conclusion. I am also excited for Team Evil to find the correct door, since it does seem like that might reveal the nature of the trap.

[Paula]

If Blackwing is that far away, then V won't get increase in spell power from that bracelet he's wearing.

Off topic question: According to comic 724, Tarquin never told Nale about Elan. So when Nale formed the original Linear Guild with Hilgya and Yikyik, he must not have known about the Order of the Stick. So how did he get an evil opposites theme? Or is it just a sheer coincidence?

[Marsala]

So, seems like the big question is "How successful was Belkar at concealing their tracks?"

Probably not very successful, since Team Evil is more likely to find the right door and trigger the trap than simply miss the right door altogether, which would not advance the plot at all. In Belkar's defense, Roy interrupted him before he was finished.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Presumably Nale learned about Elan between leaving home and meeting him in the Dungeon of Dorukan.

[Fyraltari]

If Blackwing is that far away, then V won't get increase in spell power from that bracelet he's wearing.

Off topic question: According to comic 724, Tarquin never told Nale about Elan. So when Nale formed the original Linear Guild with Hilgya and Yikyik, he must not have known about the Order of the Stick. So how did he get an evil opposites theme? Or is it just a sheer coincidence?

It's not that big of a coincidence, six-adventurers party seem to be the norm in this world*, so he got an evil adventuring party and once he realized his target was his long lost borther of opposite alignment he spinned it as an evil opposite thing. But really there is no real consistency Yikyik and early Belkar are basically identical, for example.

*Hell parties that suspiciously resonnate with each other:
Soon/Shoulderpad Guy?/Roy/Nale
Girard/Jacinda/Haley/Sabine
Serini/Tarquin/Elan/Thog
Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik