OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[ebarde]

I'm honestly starting to think Oona knows something is up and just doesn't care. Like, I don't think she wouldn't notice that the monsters shouldn't be respawning since she's so familiar with the dungeon.

[JT]

It's unclear why he would, though? Even if he figures out that doors are getting marked that shouldn't be, then given how childish the MitD generally seems to be, he'd probably mark it up to a genuine error or stupidity rather than an active attempt to block what they're doing.

MitD: "But Redcloak, I was only trying to help! We were dealing with the dungeons LOTS faster this way!"

[ebarde]

I mean, Redcloak at this point probably can start piecing things together I feel. The main reason he hasn't is because he didn't really bothered paying attention to the MITD, but if he can recall all the other times MITD undermined Team Evil I think there's a good chance he will know something is up. Like, he's been acting suspicious for a while, it's more the case of Recloak never really taking the time to look into anything MITD did, but if he was responsible for this major of a delay I'm sure that could change.

[Lexible]

That's from old black and white film noir detective movies. They usually start with the detective giving a monologue to himself in his office, when a mysterious woman walks in with a case.

I don't know any specific titles, since I've never seen any originals, but it's very frequently parodied in sci-fi and in cartoons. The various Star Trek series did several holodeck episodes where the officers would be cos-playing it in the holodeck.

And the Calvin and Hobbes strips with "Tracer Bullet".

You are confusing the Chandleresque private detective genre, with the police procedural genre (which can sometimes include police detective stories). Blackwing is solidly in the latter.

[Ruck]

So, Blackwings starting monologue... what is it parodying? It sound awfully familiar.
It is a bit like Rorschach's journal entries from Watchmen, but the reference to the kid and the wife seem to be very un-Rorschachlike.

I don't think it's anything specific, just some generic hard-boiled cop dialogue, but it could be something I don't recognize.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

I wonder if MITD could do it. And if that will be the moment of his great emergence from the shadows.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

What if the "If Redcloak ever betrays me" Suggestion isn't a Chekov's Gun, but an ironic red herring, because it will be MITD who betrays Xykon in the end?

[drazen]

Nobody said they cleared the dungeon. All they have to do is kill the first encounter and leave since it's clear the dwarves didn't go that way.

And to answer your question, Team Evil disarms traps by triggering them and tanking the effects with massive buff use.

Xykon says they killed the monsters and took their stuff.

Doesn't seem to add up. The first tomb dungeon took Team Evil "a few hours" yet this one apparently was... not much of anything?

[catagent101]

Xykon says they killed the monsters and took their stuff.

Doesn't seem to add up. The first tomb dungeon took Team Evil "a few hours" yet this one apparently was... not much of anything?

I think Xykon was saying that they took care of the encounter not the whole dungeon, that is the "active monsters" Redcloak was referring to. If they had gone through the whole dungeon I think Redcloak would have said "fully stocked dungeon" or something similar.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

A role that was addressed here.

[Petrocorus]

*Hell parties that suspiciously resonnate with each other:
Soon/Shoulderpad Guy?/Roy/Nale
Girard/Jacinda/Haley/Sabine
Serini/Tarquin/Elan/Thog
Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik

I will ask you to explain this.
How do you make this equivalences?

[danielxcutter]

Agree with your last---though I think I'd have flipped the table and left before then, Settlers of Catan-style. Still fun to read and discuss, obviously.

It’s less about Xykon’s stats in and of themselves(especially since he’s a single-classed Sorcerer; the benefits from getting more levels beyond 20 are rather minimal) and more about in comparison to the Order. A decently optimized level 20 party could take him on fairly easy without even breaking out the real cheese. The Order is both less leveled and less optimized than that though, and he almost specifically counters everyone besides the clerics and Roy.

Sunburst, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death, Destruction (?), Durkon's Hammer, Roy's Sword, the Paladins Smiting Evil if they ever show up again. The Order doesn't lack for things to cause damage to Xykon. The question, obviously, is how to do enough damage to turn him off before he totally mows down their team. It's a tall order.

Sunburst would probably work. V has an extremely poor track record with touch attacks and I’m pretty sure Undeath to Death is necromancy(which V barred). And the melee attacks have the slight drawback of needing to hit, and Xykon’s AC is at least in the high 30s if not higher.

To be honest, an epic leveled-version of Redcloak would be far easier to fight with the Order even with all the various defensive cleric spells. That probably wouldn’t flat-out ignore almost everything they have to do.

On another point, I don't think killing RedCloak is a reasonable possibility. Thor et al, need a 9th level spell from that quiddity. RedCloak is it for that possibility. Kill him and Rez him---assuming he even comes back, or that he's killed in a manner where Rez is possible---and will he lose enough XP to drop below 17th Level?

It’s better for his character arc for him to survive, but that’s including SoD and not everyone’s aware of what happened in that one.

I wonder if MITD could do it. And if that will be the moment of his great emergence from the shadows.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

What if the "If Redcloak ever betrays me" Suggestion isn't a Chekov's Gun, but an ironic red herring, because it will be MITD who betrays Xykon in the end?

Hmm, I don’t know. I think the Order also needs a good climax and this would steal the spotlight a bit too much. Though there might be build-up to that I dunno.

Also I favor my headcanon because “yeeted into a Gate” was how Roy defeated Xykon the first time, so it’d be poetic that it’d be how he defeats Xykon the last time as well.

I will ask you to explain this.
How do you make this equivalences?

I think there are aspects that are spread about. For example, Roy is a smart leader and a melee combatant; Nale is an intelligent leader but less good at melee, Thog’s excellent at melee but is sharp as a bag of wet mice. Girard is a Cha-based caster and dual wielding Ranger; Belkar is a dual wielding Ranger and Elan and Nale are Cha-based casters, etc.

You could probably write an essay about the similarities and differences between the four major adventuring groups, actually, but I’ve never gotten around to that just yet.

[Edea]

I guess the Silence spell didn't really do much of anything, ah well.

[Raven777]

Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik

Somehow, with some compromise, I feel these three parties could actually get stuff done.

[Crispie]

I'm honestly starting to think Oona knows something is up and just doesn't care. Like, I don't think she wouldn't notice that the monsters shouldn't be respawning since she's so familiar with the dungeon.

In the last panel is Oona pointing at Blackwing? If so, could Oona be referring to Blackwing as a monster that Monster Hollow has made and better than previous monsters? The exclamation marks indicate more stress than her dialog in the previous panel although she is prone to using them quite often.

[Edric O]

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line. Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

[skim172]

Xykon says they killed the monsters and took their stuff.

Doesn't seem to add up. The first tomb dungeon took Team Evil "a few hours" yet this one apparently was... not much of anything?

Maybe they didn't clear out the dungeon entirely, just the first few encounters.

[Algeh]

So...MITD doesn't seem to be with Team Evil for this one. Wonder what he's up to and why they didn't bring him along?

[ebarde]

Because they just sorta stumbled into Durkon, there wasn't any time to get MITD cause Xykon was caught by surprise. Considering how good Xykon's hearing is and how unaware MITD usually behaves, I assume he's not aware there's a fight going on.

[facw]

Maybe they didn't clear out the dungeon entirely, just the first few encounters.

Seems very likely that they had one encounter, and as soon as that finished, Greyview was able to let them know they were in the wrong place so they backed out.

[Fyraltari]

Somehow, with some compromise, I feel these three parties could actually get stuff done.

You quote me but attribute it to danielxcutter.

I will ask you to explain this.
How do you make this equivalences?

Roy:
-Soon: the Lawful Good leader of his party, mostly mêlée-oriented.
-Shoulderpad Guy: mostly by process of elimination, but seems mêlée oriented at least.
-Nale: leader of his group, Lawful(?) Evil, moulded by his adversarial relationship with his father, tries to kill his brother (Roy is haunted by failing to save his), self-centered (Roy has trouble paying attention to people who aren't related to his problems).

Haley:
-Girard: Sneaky-type second-in-command with a stormy relationship with his leader.
-Jacinda: Sneaky-type (not much to go on with).
-Sabine: Sneaky-type second-in-command.

Elan:
-Serini: most good-natured member of the team, wishes everyone would just get along.
-Tarquin: Literally just older Elan but older, a control-freak and mêlée-based.
-Thog: childish member of the team.

Vaarsuvius:
-Dorukan: Wizard best mentality, magic solves everything mentality.
-Laurin: Magic user who favors a "more firepower" approach to combat.
-Zz'dtri: taciturn (vs loquacious) elf wizard.

Durkon:
-Lirian: Divine caster.
-Malack: a cleric very devoted to his deity and friends
-Hilgya: Dwarf cleric of an ennemy god, takes Durkon's exact opposite attitude when it comes to dwarfdom.

Belkar:
-Kraagor: mostly elimination, mêlée-based and seems toenjoy fighting.
-Miron: lackadaisical, greedy, cruel (is willing to torture somebody to no-apprent gain, at least).
-Yikyik: Scaly Belkar.

[danielxcutter]

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line. Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

[Psychronia]

I can't tell whether or not Xykon has sussed this out and just doesn't care or isn't showing his hand.

And that's kinda scaring me.

[danielxcutter]

I can't tell whether or not Xykon has sussed this out and just doesn't care or isn't showing his hand.

And that's kinda scaring me.

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

Second, while Xykon has said "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" and his Bluff modifier is likely in the low stratosphere, I can't see why he'd be hiding that. It's certainly fair to say that we likely wouldn't be able to tell until he says so, of course...

[TuringTest]

Without reading any of the comments, here is my guess: In the upcoming comics, we will see Team Evil go in the same door as the heroes... and be seen and heard by the heroes... but they won't see nor hear them, as the "active trap" will make their side of the entrance connect with a different corridor/dungeon.

That *would* be an interesting scene, and it is a logical development of the events that have been set up so far.

However one thing I've learned these years is that The Giant never produces the predictable scenes that seem to me the next logical step, and comes up with alternative scenes which are equally or even more interesting

[jayem]

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

Second, while Xykon has said "Don't confuse not caring with not knowing" and his Bluff modifier is likely in the low stratosphere, I can't see why he'd be hiding that. It's certainly fair to say that we likely wouldn't be able to tell until he says so, of course...

Xykon (ought to) have questions of his own about Redcloak.

[BarakDeathBlade]

A role that was addressed here.

Which also answers an earlier question, no Team Evil didn't just clear a dungeon in 2 minutes. That takes several hours.

They went in, found big nasties, then Greyview found them, they dispelled the Silence, and pulled back out.

[Saint-Just]

Err... yes, he is. The disconnect is that his problem at hand is not the same as TE's problem at hand. His problem is that when the icy jaws of death come, there won't have been enough treats. Everything he is doing is at least ameliorating the problem by ensuring the continued arrival of treats.

Nod. Get treat.

Grey Wolf

It takes a wolf to understand a wolf.

[Ghosty]

I guess the Silence spell didn't really do much of anything, ah well.

Bonus strip material, with Greyview trying charades, and his silent approach causing one or more spells to fizzle.

I'm sure it'll be funny in the book.

[Peelee]

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

It doesn't. "Suss" does, but it means something different.

[Ghosty]

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

Why must this particular effect require a save? There are involuntary magic effects in Stickworld that have not allowed a save, Familicide most notoriously. Why can't this hypothetical Teleportation effect operate similarly?

Agreed that one of them would have made a Will save by now, if there was one to make. Which could have led to more comedy...

You're right on Undeath; I just forgot about V's 2nd banned school. I will say though, on V's propensity to blow it when it counts on Touch spells, that V now, is a lot more willing to ask for help---with say, buffing up hir BAB---than s/he was in the past. So maybe that changes?

[Lemarc]

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

Saves are optional in these situations. A DM setting a teleportation trap in a dungeon isn't going to worry about whether it fits the PHB spell, much less so a webcomic writer.