OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[dancrilis]

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

If it is a permanent Gate then it would transport anyone who walked through it without a save - under that assumption Haley would have deactivated the Gate and it would now be resetting.

There are involuntary magic effects in Stickworld that have not allowed a save, Familicide most notoriously.

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save.

Edit: A more direct example is Teleportation Circle does not allow a save.

[ManuelSacha]

Redcloak's amazing deduction skills kinda scared me a bit, at first.
He's so close to the solution, that I started worrying for the MitD, thinking he might be in trouble.
Then again... is he?
Can Redcloak and/or Xykon be a threat to the MitD?
Because, if they can hurt him but they can't kill him, by finding out about his ruse, they would accomplish only two things.
The MitD would leave Team Evil (and either side with O-Chul's side or just leave) and Xykon will know that they wasted time.
But that last thing is not an issue anymore.
Stalling them has worked. The OotS is here.
And even if they found a way to figure out which entrances they didn't cover (unlikely)... it wouldn't change anything.

[mjasghar]

Just reviewing again - seems from the looks on panel 6 that their might still be some bad blood between Roy and Durkon, which is to be expected but nice artistic touch I think.

I think it’s just a grim set to his mouth because they’re getting ready
Minrah has a similar expression

[dancrilis]

I think it’s just a grim set to his mouth because they’re getting ready
Minrah has a similar expression

It is more the eyebrows that I am noticing.

For instance Durkon's expression here (panel 8) is very similiar (not exactly the same) but without the eyebrows, and in theory he was getting ready there also.

The Giant seems to use eyebrows (and other eye related lines) to convey a lot of emotion - and he included them on Durkon and Roy on panel 6 but on nobody else.

Now maybe I am seeing author intention that is not present and it is unlikely to ever be spelled out 'they were frowning at each other' but my thinking is we have not heard the last of Durkon's venture into diplomacy and the is The Giant is including a subtle hint here to that discussion.

[bunsen_h]

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

Is it possible that rather than a teleport or a portal, the trap does some other kind of "spatial manipulation to connect regions of multidimensional stone" that doesn't permit a save, and is generally non-obvious to a high-level lich and cleric? Such that the properties of the multidimensional stone don't interfere with people being within range of Telepathic Bond?

[danielxcutter]

I suppose a portal-type would work. Probably not Gate since that explicitly only opens up to another plane and I don’t think Serini had enough resources to make several dozen demiplanes.

[ReaderAt2046]

In mechanic terms, it is in fact unlikely, if not flat out “rocks fall everyone dies” levels of impossible for the Order to take on Xykon even now because of the sheer number of their options that he’s immune to. In Start of Darkness we’ve seen he has a ring that makes him immune to positive energy(so no Heal bombs), he’s got an item that makes him immune to fire and as a lich he’s also immune to cold and electricity damage, undead can’t be sneak attacked and he has so much DR Haley or Belkar would have trouble so much scratching him. Oh, and he has Boots of Free Movement so the Hand spells don’t work and throwing him into a Gate isn’t an option either.

Roy might be able to pull a Spellsplinter Maneuver once at the climax, but if my suspicions are correct and it works similarly to Mage Slayer or the like then only narrative causality would make it work; even Durkula was able to cast through it once and Xykon’s much stronger.

And this is all before the rest of Team Evil. It’s why I’m betting that Xykon gets taken out by somebody Bull Rushing him into a rift and getting eaten by the Snarl; because there is practically no way for him to lose otherwise.

If this was an actual game and I saw his stats, I’d call BS.

Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.

[WanderingMist]

Why must this particular effect require a save? There are involuntary magic effects in Stickworld that have not allowed a save, Familicide most notoriously. Why can't this hypothetical Teleportation effect operate similarly?

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save. Remember, V used Disjunction on the Dragon's Anti-Magic Field without a second thought, and that only has a 1% chance per caster level of working on those.

It is more the eyebrows that I am noticing.

For instance Durkon's expression here (panel 8) is very similar (not exactly the same) but without the eyebrows, and in theory he was getting ready there also.

The Giant seems to use eyebrows (and other eye related lines) to convey a lot of emotion - and he included them on Durkon and Roy on panel 6 but on nobody else.

Now maybe I am seeing author intention that is not present and it is unlikely to ever be spelled out 'they were frowning at each other' but my thinking is we have not heard the last of Durkon's venture into diplomacy and the is The Giant is including a subtle hint here to that discussion.

All Durkon did there was one Heal spell, and he had the eyebrows when he was looking back to see if Team Evil was following them yet, but not when he turned back to Roy.

[dancrilis]

All Durkon did there was one Heal spell, and he had the eyebrows when he was looking back to see if Team Evil was following them yet, but not when he turned back to Roy.

Yes - effectively eyebrows can be used when The Giant wants to get across feeling without dialogue.

[Petrocorus]

Spoiler: For post size

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Roy:
-Soon: the Lawful Good leader of his party, mostly mêlée-oriented.
-Shoulderpad Guy: mostly by process of elimination, but seems mêlée oriented at least.
-Nale: leader of his group, Lawful(?) Evil, moulded by his adversarial relationship with his father, tries to kill his brother (Roy is haunted by failing to save his), self-centered (Roy has trouble paying attention to people who aren't related to his problems).

Haley:
-Girard: Sneaky-type second-in-command with a stormy relationship with his leader.
-Jacinda: Sneaky-type (not much to go on with).
-Sabine: Sneaky-type second-in-command.

Elan:
-Serini: most good-natured member of the team, wishes everyone would just get along.
-Tarquin: Literally just older Elan but older, a control-freak and mêlée-based.
-Thog: childish member of the team.

Vaarsuvius:
-Dorukan: Wizard best mentality, magic solves everything mentality.
-Laurin: Magic user who favors a "more firepower" approach to combat.
-Zz'dtri: taciturn (vs loquacious) elf wizard.

Durkon:
-Lirian: Divine caster.
-Malack: a cleric very devoted to his deity and friends
-Hilgya: Dwarf cleric of an ennemy god, takes Durkon's exact opposite attitude when it comes to dwarfdom.

Belkar:
-Kraagor: mostly elimination, mêlée-based and seems toenjoy fighting.
-Miron: lackadaisical, greedy, cruel (is willing to torture somebody to no-apprent gain, at least).
-Yikyik: Scaly Belkar.

I disagree with several of this associations.
We could categorize them by their D&D In Combat party role, or by their TVTropes Five-Man Band roles, and we would get different grouping.
There are clearly similarities between the members of each party, and the thing is you can find similarities between one member f a team and several members of another team. Tarquin for instance is the party leader (apparently) and the big melee fighter of his team, just like Roy, but has an outlook like Elan, and a morality closer to Belkar.

Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.

Level doesn't directly translate into CR.

[hroþila]

I disagree with several of this associations.
We could categorize them by their D&D In Combat party role, or by their TVTropes Five-Man Band roles, and we would get different grouping.
There are clearly similarities between the members of each party, and the thing is you can find similarities between one member f a team and several members of another team. Tarquin for instance is the party leader (apparently) and the big melee fighter of his team, just like Roy, but has an outlook like Elan, and a morality closer to Belkar.

You're absolutely right, but then again, that is the point, isn't it? The evil opposites thing wasn't that good of a fit in the first place, and Nale would have been able to spin reality the same way for it to apply at least as well to any Evil party he had put together.

[Fyraltari]

I disagree with several of this associations.
We could categorize them by their D&D In Combat party role, or by their TVTropes Five-Man Band roles, and we would get different grouping.

Which is why I went by both to get them with whoever they have more in common.

There are clearly similarities between the members of each party, and the thing is you can find similarities between one member f a team and several members of another team. Tarquin for instance is the party leader (apparently) and the big melee fighter of his team, just like Roy, but has an outlook like Elan, and a morality closer to Belkar.

According to the Giant, Tarquin isn't the leader of the Vector Legion. His morals are pretty different from Belkar, too. Belkar is all Id, doing whatever he feels like at any given moment not caring for others in the slightest. Tarquin is a control freak who wants to be the center of attention at all time.

Edit:

You're absolutely right, but then again, that is the point, isn't it? The evil opposites thing wasn't that good of a fit in the first place, and Nale would have been able to spin reality the same way for it to apply at least as well to any Evil party he had put together.

Yup.

[Saint-Just]

Level doesn't directly translate into CR.

You probably meant to say level adjustment doesn't translate into CR, which is true. Because levels in any PC class do translate into CR on 1:1 basis. So we are still looking at 21+ from character levels and 2 more from template.

As usual that doesn't mean that any creature with CR of 23 is incredibly hard for the party as presented, but power and defences of Xykon has been already addressed above without reference to his CR.

[Ghosty]

If Familicide allowed a save, wouldn't one of Girard's group have rolled a 20?

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

[ebarde]

I think Tarquin is more akin to their PR guy while Shoulderpads is more of the battlefield leader

[dancrilis]

If Familicide allowed a save, wouldn't one of Girard's group have rolled a 20?

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

Spells can still kill you if you pass your save.

[arverst_aegnar]

If Familicide allowed a save, wouldn't one of Girard's group have rolled a 20?

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

Haha.

It occurs to me that a key weakness of Familicide as a defense is that someone doesn't need to be related to your target, or one of their relations, to be motivated to avenge or resurrect them. It's ... i don't think ironic is the word, but interesting that Girard's defense had the exact same weakness (dependence on blood relations), which made it all the more effective against him.

Very natural, considering the narrative purpose of Familicide, and that its narrative purpose is its only purpose, but i hadn't noticed that particular element before.

[drazen]

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save. Remember, V used Disjunction on the Dragon's Anti-Magic Field without a second thought, and that only has a 1% chance per caster level of working on those.

Spliced V had a level estimate of something ridiculous like 66 or 78 if I recall.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Also I think Xykon might be having actual fun here. It turns out Kraagor’s tomb, an infinitely regenerating dungeon, has been his true hope ever since

Spoiler: SOD

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he lost the joy of coffee.

I wonder if they could just leave him here and stop worrying.
I mean, Xykon’s only wanted to take over the world because that’s just what villains do this whole time. But he’s actually happy here! This is the first time we’ve seen him enjoy himself for over a day at most!

Once the Order sorts out the whole "one Gate barely holding a reality-slaying monster at bay" thing, they can leave Xykon here to dungeon-delve to his heart's content.
Unless Roy wants to do something about that blood oath I guess.

Nope, it is confirmation that the Monster in the Darkness marked a random door as "already seen".

Fyraltari was presumably referring to Oona's comment about "having new monsters behind a door," which Redcloak described as "regenerating," which makes it sound like the monsters are either being generated magically or trolls.

*Hell parties that suspiciously resonnate with each other:
Soon/Shoulderpad Guy?/Roy/Nale
Girard/Jacinda/Haley/Sabine
Serini/Tarquin/Elan/Thog
Dorukan/Laurin/Vaarsuvius/Zz'dtri
Lirian/Malack/Durkon/Hilgya
Kraagor/Miron/Belkar/Yikyik

There are a certain number of roles that need to be filled, and only so many ways to fill each. Combine with characterization needs—both in terms of how each character's personality needs to fit their role in some regard (whether it's embracing it a la Thog or rejecting it a la Roy) and in terms of intra-party dynamics—and this level of similarity isn't all very surprising...especially when you consider both rough fits (e.g. Hilgya and Malack, or the leaders we know anything about) and the fairly obscure characters (e.g. half of the wizards and the leader we don't know anything about)

Also, one of those six was initially constructed in deliberate opposition to another, which makes the set as a whole lot more cohesive than it would be otherwise.

Spoiler: Explanation

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Imagine that the Stick, Scribble, and Sinister parties were each 1 cohesive with each other. (Yes, quantifying something like that is kinda silly.) The average cohesion would be (3*1)/3=1. Obviously.

Now imagine that we add the Linear party, saying that it also has 1 cohesive with the Scribble and Sinister parties, but 7 with the Stick party. There are six ways to compare two of these four parties, five of which have a cohesion value of 1 and one with a cohesion value of 7. The average would be (7+[5*1])/6=2.

Obviously, if we were to assign such similarity/cohesion values to all six sets of parties the results wouldn't be that extreme, but extreme numbers make it easier to see what the eff this crazy guy is talking about.

...
So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.
...

An interesting idea. It doesn't work well with the saves most teleportation spells allow (even if Team Evil didn't have demigodlike saves, they'd roll a 20 eventually), but it's neat.

First of all TIL that "sus" precedes Among Us.

Reminds me of Something Witty Entertainment lamenting that everyone thought their use of "sus" in SAOA episode 15 was an Among Us reference, even though they wrote the script months before Among Us was really a thing.

Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.

That's not how level adjustment works.

A human level 21* sorcerer would have an ECL of 21 (meaning they gain XP and whatnot as a 21st-level character, since they are one) and a CR of 21. The lich template's +4 LA means that a human lich with 21 levels of sorcerer would have an ECL of 25 (gaining XP more slowly than a 21st-level character), but the template only increases CR by 2, for a CR of 23. The level adjustment is higher than the CR adjustment because many lich abilities are (theoretically) more useful to a PC than a monster.

Spoiler: *

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I'm of the opinion that maximized energy drain was probably cast with a 12th-level spell slot rather than a 9th-level one and an invisible metamagic rod, but that would require him to take Improved Spell Capacity three times, for a total of four known Epic feats, requiring at least 26 levels of sorcerer (21st and 24th level, plus bonus feats at 23rd and 26th). But most people consider that a few levels too much, as if a 21st-level lich is a more suitable opponent for a mid/high-level party.

Anyways, I think a more likely ECL/CR for Xykon would be 30/28.

Spliced V had a level estimate of something ridiculous like 66 or 78 if I recall.

Were all of their levels added together? I assumed that V just used the caster level of whichever individual spirit they got a given spell from.

[spruce56]

It is good to see Xykon again, he is a very entertaining big-bad. I know he's been in a few strips recently, but this group, Xykon, RC, Oona and Greywind play off each other nicely. They're just really good villains and I love this comic

[hroþila]

Also, narratively, the spell is counterproductive if it allowed a save. Let's kill everybody who could have conceivably been related to an enemy of mine, so I can be safe...except for 5 percent of that vast pool of entities, all of whom now are titanically pissed off at me, for really good reason.

That's only assuming that the actual purpose of the spell (both why Haerta researched it and why V cast it) was to kill all your enemies so you'd be safe from retribution, but there's reason to question that. Even without a save, the spell completely fails to do that: non-blood relations of all kinds are spared. Tarquin for example survived and would potentially (if he was a different person) have been perfectly capable of seeking revenge for Penelope. Friends are entirely unaffected, no matter how close. Simply put, the spell can't do what V claimed they wanted it to do (ensure safety by preventing revenge).

The only purpose that makes sense in practice is disproportionate retribution, and I think the comic makes it clear that this was V's actual motivation ("This—and no less—is the price of threatening my family"). All that stuff about protecting their family and ensuring it wouldn't happen again was just a rationalization.

[Fyraltari]

The only purpose that makes sense in practice is disproportionate retribution, and I think the comic makes it clear that this was V's actual motivation ("This—and no less—is the price of threatening my family"). All that stuff about protecting their family and ensuring it wouldn't happen again was just a rationalization.

Honestly I think the real purpose of the spell is to do as much destruction as you can because you can, as an ego thing.

That reminds me of the answer the villain of the French audio show Adoprixtoxis gave when asked why he blew up a planet when he didn't need to do that: "I had a brand new space station. I wanted to see how powerful it could be. When you buy a brand new sport car, it's not to drive at 50 km/h, you want to see what it's got under the hood, don't you?"

[Thermophille]

We don't know if Familicide allowed a save.

So, save partially negates? Die if you fail the save, and deal 10d6 damage if you succeed?

It would make sense then for all of Girard's family to have died than, since it's reasonable that the 5% who rolled a nat 20 on their save couldn't take the damage. Of course, that means that 5% of the dragons targeted would have probably survived, but as someone else mentioned, I don't think V was actually worried about that bit.

Of course, that raises the question of what spell level that was... She was the strongest of 3 epic-level spellcasters, but I don't know enough about 3.5 epic rules to say more. Though, if she's level 25 (for sake of argument), the other two were level 22, and Varsavius was level 15, that puts the total ECL at 84, or 84% chance to break the antimagic field.

[ebarde]

I feel like familicide seems way too drastic to allow for a save, but idk. I mean, V was pretty sure it would and that Black Dragon's whole lineage even though dragons tend to have really good saves.

[Goblin_Priest]

I have to admit, this strip makes me feel sympathy for Redcloak. As the only one on Team Evil with a functioning brain cell, he reminds me of the kid with glasses who always did all the work on group projects in school.

Well, okay, Grayview may be reasonably intelligent, but he seems to be applying that more to Russian novel style quips than to solving the problem at hand.

Respectfully,

Brian P.

He has behaved quite intelligently when dwarves was hiding, and I do not see how he could demonstrate his intelligence in other strips. I hope you don't expect him to think for Xykon and\or Oona?

I'm honestly starting to think Oona knows something is up and just doesn't care. Like, I don't think she wouldn't notice that the monsters shouldn't be respawning since she's so familiar with the dungeon.

Oona and Greyview probably don't care all that much. They've been repeatedly shown saying how much they don't care. Oona is specifically there to make sure TE doesn't succeed too much at clearing the dungeons. Greyview's just doing what he's told, with no apparent ambition or aspiration of his own. Neither are sufficiently motivated to think too hard about what's going on, they are just content to tag along and kill stuff.

Agree with your last---though I think I'd have flipped the table and left before then, Settlers of Catan-style. Still fun to read and discuss, obviously.

Sunburst, Disintegrate, Undeath to Death, Destruction (?), Durkon's Hammer, Roy's Sword, the Paladins Smiting Evil if they ever show up again. The Order doesn't lack for things to cause damage to Xykon. The question, obviously, is how to do enough damage to turn him off before he totally mows down their team. It's a tall order.

On another point, I don't think killing RedCloak is a reasonable possibility. Thor et al, need a 9th level spell from that quiddity. RedCloak is it for that possibility. Kill him and Rez him---assuming he even comes back, or that he's killed in a manner where Rez is possible---and will he lose enough XP to drop below 17th Level?

Given the number of dungeons that have been cleared, and the fact that Xykon is gaining XP, I think it fairly likely that Redcloak might now be at least level 18. And if slain and called for a resurrect, I doubt TDO will go "yo, it's chill, you can just hang around here".

[bunsen_h]

Hypothesis: Ordinarily, the "trap" for each doorway maintains a spatial congruence within the multidimensional stone, connecting the entrance to a dungeon full of high-level monsters. This isn't a trap in the normal sense; there isn't a saving throw, and it isn't affecting beings who pass by -- it's affecting the dungeon.

Disabling the "trap" as Haley has done, using the skills of a rogue, changes the congruence, connecting to a different route within the multidimensional stone. We'll see what that contains.

Disabling the "trap" by brute force, such as by turning off all of the magic, either connects you to something like the Tomb of Horrors or sets you up in some closed dimensional pocket. Or causes multiple dimensions of stone to merge, with you in the middle with no magic. Oops.

[Ruck]

It doesn't. "Suss" does, but it means something different.

This "suss" is the form Psychronia used.

Also, "sus" as slang is something I've heard before Among Us.

[mjasghar]

The various groups are variations on each role
Malak was pure caster - practically a specialist priest, Hilgya is an attack caster (flame strikes), Durkon is heal/buff and then melee
Nale and Elan combine casting and unarmoured melee in different ways - sorc/fighter versus Bard. Ironically Elan is more optimised by taking a prestige class to up his melee whilst mainly being a support bard
Thog is a pure barbarian type who dumped Int - ironically this contrasts with Roy who used those extra feats to make himself a better fighter.
Sabine is a special case in that she has outsider casting abilities. It is worth noting that Haley is actually mirroring her by branching into using magical items.
The rest have appeared too rarely to be definitive about their methodology

[theinsulabot]

Haley is truly a heroine, you go elan, unintentionally seduce the strongest woman in all OOTS!

[facw]

unintentionally seduce the strongest woman in all OOTS!

Laurin Shattersmith? She does seem like she would appreciate respect for female adventurers, but I'm not sure it would seduce her...