OOTS #1221 - The Discussion Thread

[Grey Watcher]

Actually, the Order doesn't know what is the phylactery...

I think they do, actually, thanks to O-Chul. Between Vaarsuvius and Blackwing almost throwing it into the Rift and the fact that, in the Pyramid Dream Montage, Roy is throwing Redcloak's holy symbol (complete with Xykon's angry eyes) into a volcano or something, it seems pretty obvious they know that the phylactery is also Redcloak's holy symbol.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Point. I had forgotten that they'd learned that they'd learned that. Time for a reread over the Winter Break, I guess.

[BarakDeathBlade]

Archmage stacks with Sorcerer but base classes don't stack like that.

So for instance a Wizard 20/Sorcerer 20/Cleric 20/Druid 20 is casting as a level 20 caster for any of their various classes (assuming no items, feats etc), they would have a character level of 80.
Meanwhile a Bard 20/Loremaster 10/Arcane Trickster 10 is casting as a level 40 character and is a level 40 character.

We don't know how the splice worked in relation to caster level but my assumption is that the souls acted as independent contractors loaning arcane power to the contractee rather then acting as if the contractee had gained all the levels naturally - and as such the wizard levels wouldn't stack (and the sorcerer archmage levels would also remain seperate).

Just my $.02, but in 639, Haera appears behind V casting Familicide.

In 643 Ganonron appears behind V casting Epic Teleport. Sure, it doesn't happen in 650 when she Epic Teleports into Xycon's tower in Azure City, but that was a busy panel.

I read it as, the spliced soul is casting the spell out of their own slots. If they cast a spell, it's cast by that soul's caster level. If V casts Disintegrate (well, it was the spell you requested...) it's at V's caster level.

I also think we care about this far more than the Giant does at this point, but that's my position.

[WanderingMist]

Just my $.02, but in 639, Haera appears behind V casting Familicide.

In 643 Ganonron appears behind V casting Epic Teleport. Sure, it doesn't happen in 650 when she Epic Teleports into Xycon's tower in Azure City, but that was a busy panel.

I read it as, the spliced soul is casting the spell out of their own slots. If they cast a spell, it's cast by that soul's caster level. If V casts Disintegrate (well, it was the spell you requested...) it's at V's caster level.

I also think we care about this far more than the Giant does at this point, but that's my position.

See, the thing about that is, Disjunction worked and V wasn't worried about it failing in the slightest. I doubt that whoever's spell it was had a higher level than 30, and even that is a big, big stretch. Even given all V's arrogance and power-tripping, they would not have risked losing their power for a 30% chance at success where failure meant a fate worse than death. My assumption is that while the souls give V access to the spells, as shown by specific souls using specific spells, V's effective caster level is effectively equivalent to all 4 of them added up, which, even at the lowest, would be 70-something. Given the comments that Haerta was the most powerful, she was probably mid-late twenties (25-27), while the others were early-mid (20-23), giving V's ECL a boost somewhere between 65 and 73.

[danielxcutter]

See, the thing about that is, Disjunction worked and V wasn't worried about it failing in the slightest. I doubt that whoever's spell it was had a higher level than 30, and even that is a big, big stretch. Even given all V's arrogance and power-tripping, they would not have risked losing their power for a 30% chance at success where failure meant a fate worse than death. My assumption is that while the souls give V access to the spells, as shown by specific souls using specific spells, V's effective caster level is effectively equivalent to all 4 of them added up, which, even at the lowest, would be 70-something. Given the comments that Haerta was the most powerful, she was probably mid-late twenties (25-27), while the others were early-mid (20-23), giving V's ECL a boost somewhere between 65 and 73.

Losing your casting through Disjunction only happens if you use it on an artifact, so no.

[Bilbo Baggins]

Losing your casting through Disjunction only happens if you use it on an artifact, so no.

The "losing their power" referred to what would have happened if V hadn't managed to destroy the anti-magic field. (Just like what happened to V back on the island.)

[danielxcutter]

The "losing their power" referred to what would have happened if V hadn't managed to destroy the anti-magic field. (Just like what happened to V back on the island.)

Okay fair, but did V even have other options? 99% of the spells in this game wouldn't be able to reach into an AMF anyways.

[Kornaki]

They could have gated some sort of monster in that was more capable of hand to hand combat.

[danielxcutter]

They could have gated some sort of monster in that was more capable of hand to hand combat.

First of all you'd need a ridiculous CL to Gate in something that can go toe-to-toe with an ancient black dragon(probably with class levels in Sorcerer) in an AMF. Second, and even more importantly, V was focused on their arcane power, which is why they even went with the deal in the first place instead of going with the "cut off your head to contact Master" plan and summoning creatures kind of goes against that.

[mjasghar]

Technically Xykon could let it slip that he has hidden his phylactery in a secret location (maybe after Redcloak's holy symbol is destroyed), Durkon could put two and two together and let Roy know what Thor said and then Roy could spend the rest of his life searching for Xykon's astral fortress in an attempt to finally destroy him - only to die of old age and found out that he had resolved the blood oath decades ago.

There would be some dark humour in that.

You don’t age on the astral
However that would mean Roy could never return to the material as time would catch up
On the other hand he could live there with Celia happily

[dancrilis]

You don’t age on the astral
However that would mean Roy could never return to the material as time would catch up
On the other hand he could live there with Celia happily

Firstly on his ongoing research he would likely have to leave the plane on occassion and secondly and perhaps more relevantly do you haev a source for that not aging - that seems to be the case for when you astrally project into the Astral Plane - but I am not aware of any statement that you don't age if you are physically present on the plane, if nothing else there are creatures native to the plane that do seem to age.

[mjasghar]

The timelessness etc traits apply regardless of how you get there
And races that live there do leave the plane in order to reproduce and to mature

[dancrilis]

The timelessness etc traits apply regardless of how you get there
And races that live there do leave the plane in order to reproduce and to mature

Do you have a source for this?

[Yanisa]

Do you have a source for this?

It's on the SRD.

The Astral Plane has the following traits.

Timeless. Age, hunger, thirst, poison, and natural healing don’t function in the Astral Plane, though they resume functioning when the traveler leaves the Astral Plane.

[dancrilis]

It's on the SRD.

I had been checking the Planar Handbook rather then the DMG - but the timeless trait in the DMG does mention:

Timeless:On planes with this trait, time still passes, but the effects of time are diminished.

And the Planar Handbook does seem to have races that exist and grow old in the Astral Plane - but then DnD does occassionally seem inconsistent on how its cosmology functions.

[Grey Watcher]

You don’t age on the astral
However that would mean Roy could never return to the material as time would catch up
On the other hand he could live there with Celia happily

What's the source for the notion that he'd rapid age to "make up the difference" so to speak instead of just resuming aging where he left off? Because I've seen "does not age" gimmicks work either way, depending on what the narrative needs.

[Goblin_Priest]

What's the source for the notion that he'd rapid age to "make up the difference" so to speak instead of just resuming aging where he left off? Because I've seen "does not age" gimmicks work either way, depending on what the narrative needs.

I think I've even seen both in D&D, but I don't recall where or why.

[dancrilis]

What's the source for the notion that he'd rapid age to "make up the difference" so to speak instead of just resuming aging where he left off? Because I've seen "does not age" gimmicks work either way, depending on what the narrative needs.

That is in the DMG - but as mentioned the DMG seems somewhat inconsistent on Timelessness.

[Yanisa]

I had been checking the Planar Handbook rather then the DMG - but the timeless trait in the DMG does mention:

And the Planar Handbook does seem to have races that exist and grow old in the Astral Plane - but then DnD does occassionally seem inconsistent on how its cosmology functions.

You also need to take in account the rest of the paragraph for some more context. The SRD sums up nicely (Because I don't want to type in the DMG paragraph):

How the timeless trait can affect certain activities or conditions such as hunger, thirst, aging, the effects of poison, and healing varies from plane to plane.

Also, in that same paragraph, is an example of someone at age 20, staying for 50 years at the astral plane without aging. And on returning becoming age 70.

I also acknowledge that D&D can be very inconsistent, especially in these more lore based things.

Edit:

What's the source for the notion that he'd rapid age to "make up the difference" so to speak instead of just resuming aging where he left off? Because I've seen "does not age" gimmicks work either way, depending on what the narrative needs.

In D&D we have both mechanics. Both are common fantasy tropes, so of course D&D has them both. Easy to mix up too.

In short:
Timeless means that time passes*, but the subject doesn't age until returning to place with time. That's the example with the person being 20 for 50 years and returning home als a 70 year old. (That's how it works on the astral plane, but the various descriptions imply there might be a variant timeless traits on other planes where you do age, but super slow.)
Flowing time means that time passes differently between planes. For example; 1 hour in a plane with flowing time could mean a year passed on the material plane. Only you have aged one hour, where the people on the material plane aged an entire year.

*If time doesn't pass, you are basically stuck in someone else's Time Stop spell.

[Doug Lampert]

Err... yes, he is. The disconnect is that his problem at hand is not the same as TE's problem at hand. His problem is that when the icy jaws of death come, there won't have been enough treats. Everything he is doing is at least ameliorating the problem by ensuring the continued arrival of treats.

Nod. Get treat.

Grey Wolf

TE's objective:
Xykon: Use the gate to take over the world.
RC: Use the gate to blackmail the gods, or destroy the world and let the DO participated in building the next.
Oona: Make sure these strangers don't kill off your entire food supply.
GV: Get treat. Because nothing really matters, so you may as well get treats.

None of these are the same. Three of them are in outright opposition.

Wait... why is everyone talking about the Order possibly being plane shifted or teleported (and the evidence against this)? I thought the function of the Entrance Trap was obvious: You get teleported if you step through it while it's active. The corridor with the yellowish floor, where the Order is currently located, is the one actually inside the mountain, the one actually behind the door. So the Order didn't go anywhere. They are exactly where they think they are. The corridor with the dark(er) green floor, matching the first few meters behind the entrance, isn't actually inside the mountain - it's in a different location, and you get teleported to that location when you pass through the active trap. Also, the active trap makes you see this remote location when looking in from the entrance, rather than seeing what is actually there (the yellowish floor).

So all of the dungeons that Team Evil cleared, are not actually located inside the mountain. They are places that Team Evil got teleported to. The Gate isn't at the end of any of the dungeons because the dungeons are not what is actually behind the doors. The first people to see what is actually behind one of the doors are the Order.

Now that the trap is active again, when Team Evil opens the door they will see what the Order originally saw - the corridor with the dark(er) green floor - and they will get teleported into that corridor by the trap. The Order will see them vanish as they walk past the trap line. Then the Order will realize what's going on (once the initial shock wears off), they will explore the real corridor that they are in, and they will find... something. Not the Gate, I assume, but something else that's actually hidden inside this mountain. Presumably something related to the mysterious voices that took Lien and O-Chul.

Bingo. I don't understand the objections either.

Because Team Evil in general have enough good saves that they'd have made one by now. Teleportation is basically always Will(negates) and both Xykon and Redcloak should have at least good bonuses, even if we ignore the MitD. And even if they blew every single save so far they'd know they had a saving throw; only certain effects like scrying spells don't let the target know they made one I believe.

Because Teleportation Circle, which is SPECIFICALLY usable as a trap, allows no save and requires a rogue to spot.

It's the obvious spell, and it's no save.

Remember, Xykon is an epic-level (i.e. level 21 minimum) PC build with a +4 LA template and full appropriate wealth. That means he's a minimum of six (effective) levels higher than the sub-epic OOTS PCs. That is not a fight that is supposed to be winnable by standard CR rules.

Standard CR rules are that Lich is worth +2 CR, LA is only for PCs, and Xykon is not a PC. He's a minimum of CR 23, and you should be able to fight up to CR of APL+8 straight by the book. (More specifically, for a party of 4, of level+8 is supposedly an exactly even match, AKA 50/50, anything worse than that is overwhelming though, so it's right on the edge. That said, the DMG writers badly underestimated how much difference an optimized level makes in 3.5, but who cares, because no one in TOotS is optimized.)

[danielxcutter]

I’m pretty sure EXP is only given for enemies 7 or less CR higher than the party’s ECL. And many things suggest that Xykon is considerably higher than CR 23.

Plus as I have repeatedly mentioned: Xykon is so absurdly resistant(if not flat-out immune) to virtually anything the Order can do that if I’d fought something in such an unoptimized “game” I’d accuse the DM of trying to screw with us.

Though to be fair I’d probably have done that during DStP. The Thieves’ Guild and Pit Fiend fights honestly look like the kind where the DM is sick of the game but isn’t willing to pull an outright Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

[Tvtyrant]

I’m pretty sure EXP is only given for enemies 7 or less CR higher than the party’s ECL. And many things suggest that Xykon is considerably higher than CR 23.

Plus as I have repeatedly mentioned: Xykon is so absurdly resistant(if not flat-out immune) to virtually anything the Order can do that if I’d fought something in such an unoptimized “game” I’d accuse the DM of trying to screw with us.

Though to be fair I’d probably have done that during DStP. The Thieves’ Guild and Pit Fiend fights honestly look like the kind where the DM is sick of the game but isn’t willing to pull an outright Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

Nah, those were the consequences for dumb players. They had almost unlimited opportunities to deal with the "ninja-demon attacks" subplot, with a steady progression of difficulty in encounters. The party chose to focus on other things. Likewise player conflict led to the entire Thieves Guild arc, where Belkar broke his oath, Haley refused to disclose what her backstory was and why they shouldn't go there, and Inexplicably Medium Fairy thinking she was smarter then veteran adventurers.

The actual one that was unfair was the Ancient Black Dragon attack, which V had 0 chance of beating and had no forshadowing.

[dancrilis]

I’m pretty sure EXP is only given for enemies 7 or less CR higher than the party’s ECL. And many things suggest that Xykon is considerably higher than CR 23.

Plus as I have repeatedly mentioned: Xykon is so absurdly resistant(if not flat-out immune) to virtually anything the Order can do that if I’d fought something in such an unoptimized “game” I’d accuse the DM of trying to screw with us.

Though to be fair I’d probably have done that during DStP. The Thieves’ Guild and Pit Fiend fights honestly look like the kind where the DM is sick of the game but isn’t willing to pull an outright Rocks Fall Everyone Dies.

In fairness the 'DM' has given the 'players' a partial list of the Team Evil's spell list, magic items and feats - which isn't nothing, and has likely removed the Lich's ability to return from defeat while 'playing' it like the lich doesn't know that and thinks he is safer then ever.

On the Thieves’ Guild fight that one effectively convinced me that Belkar is a decent bit higher in level then Haley - she was ~14th level meaning Bozzok was ~18th level and Belkar handled him and Crystal (also around 14th level) with ease - but that might just be me.

[Rogar Demonblud]

The Thieves Guild fight is just a mook grind. Haley only had a problem because she has next to no melee capabilities and didn't even grab a blade from one of the people she killed.

[danielxcutter]

Nah, those were the consequences for dumb players. They had almost unlimited opportunities to deal with the "ninja-demon attacks" subplot, with a steady progression of difficulty in encounters. The party chose to focus on other things.

Okay, but an advanced Pit Fiend(considering it was bigger than Durkon with Thor’s Might) on players at most level 13 or so? Yeah, that’s TPK material.

Likewise player conflict led to the entire Thieves Guild arc, where Belkar broke his oath, Haley refused to disclose what her backstory was and why they shouldn't go there, and Inexplicably Medium Fairy thinking she was smarter then veteran adventurers.

Inexplicably Medium Fairy was essentially a DMPC though. Who specifically seemed to be designed to screw with the players.

The actual one that was unfair was the Ancient Black Dragon attack, which V had 0 chance of beating and had no forshadowing.

Also a way of twisting V’s arm into accepting a bargain that grants the DM carte blanche to pull them out of combat whenever they like.

In fairness the 'DM' has given the 'players' a partial list of the Team Evil's spell list, magic items and feats - which isn't nothing, and has likely removed the Lich's ability to return from defeat while 'playing' it like the lich doesn't know that and thinks he is safer then ever.

Even if it was just Xykon he’s still near impossible to defeat with the Order’s current arsenal and he has a near-epic cleric and the MitD. Plus the bugbears but they’re not quite as high level probably.

On the Thieves’ Guild fight that one effectively convinced me that Belkar is a decent bit higher in level then Haley - she was ~14th level meaning Bozzok was ~18th level and Belkar handled him and Crystal (also around 14th level) with ease - but that might just be me.

I think the interview Rich did implies he has Favored Enemy(Human). Both Crystal and Bozzok(half-orcs are treated as both human and orc) are affected by this and I do suppose their builds weren’t that optimal.

The Thieves Guild fight is just a mook grind. Haley only had a problem because she has next to no melee capabilities and didn't even grab a blade from one of the people she killed.

Eh, yeah fair about the mooks. Bozzok being level 18+ and Crystal being built to break Haley is kinda unfair though.

[Ginasius]

Xykon has a point... why should a powerful murderous psycho not become a dungeon delving adventurer? You get to horribly murder lots of creatures and loot their stuff, and people will still like you!

Yeah, brainy villains may enjoy the whole "making plans" thing, but Xykon would probably have lived a happier and more fulfilling life as a dungeon-delving adventurous murderhobo than he did as a miscreant...

OOTS already has a murderous psycho turned dungeon delving adventurer for example.

And sexy shoeless god of war also.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

I like to imagine that Redcloak often notices irrelevant details and connects them to come to incorrect conclusions when we're not watching Team Evil, just like how this forum keeps noticing details and coming to incorrect conclusions (also during "interim" times, as in, between strips). It's amusing to imagine Redcloak annoying Xykon by not shutting up like how Elan annoys Roy or how we annoy Mr. Burlew.

Redcloak: "This doesn't make sense". Xykon: "You say that about everything".

Forum: "This proves that Haley-is-half-Celestial/X-character-is-Redcloak's-Niece/Belkar-dies-next-strip/MITD-is-a(n)-/V's-true-gender-is-/the-major-character-with-only-one-appearance-is-/e.t.c". The Giant: "You say that about everything!"

[Rogar Demonblud]

There are reasons Rich stopped reading the forums. I imagine those are a lot of those reasons.

[WanderingMist]

There are reasons Rich stopped reading the forums. I imagine those are a lot of those reasons.

Didn't Rich explicitly say he doesn't read these because he feels a massive temptation to spite people who would have been correct had he not read their theories?

[Peelee]

Didn't Rich explicitly say he doesn't read these because he feels a massive temptation to spite people who would have been correct had he not read their theories?

Maybe a long time back, but once the plot got about a third of the way in, I would imagine it would be largely impossible to change things because they were predicted even if he wanted to.