Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

[Dion]

As far as I remember, nobody suggested that Kubota used epic animal handling to maintain his relationship with Therkla.

V’s mate also did not use epic animal handling to control their children.

I agree that it’s interesting to consider that maintaining a familial bond could be done through the application of an epic skill level, but I don’t think that in the comic that’s how Serini is doing it.

[Seward]

I'm in the "KN Dungeoneering" would be helpful for raising a beholder, and Animal Handling would be useless camp.

Knowing the stages of growth, how they develop etc from a theoretical standpoint would help. Much like an alien who studied earth society trying to raise a baby. They'll do a lot better if they have "Knowledge Human" on their character sheet than without it.

Humans know how to raise humans without specific kn skills because they were once a kid, basically. And trial/error as challenges come up. And advice from other humans who raised children (some humans take classes/read books etc before attempting children. But going for all humans raised through all history, you wing it, or get help from relatives)

It is fair that an alien wouldn't start out as good as a human at raising a kid on average, because they weren't ever a human kid and have no helpful human relatives etc to give advice. But you can overcome most of that bar with study, it isn't like childrearing happens in secret, although if you "research" with pop culture broadcasts alone you can get some odd ideas. But still do a lot better than an Alien who found themselves in possession of a human baby with no other information.

[Seward]

- Girard and Xykon apparently not having familiars, though this can be explained easily enough.

That can just be a choice. I've adventured with arcane casters who had the familiar class ability (or animal companion class ability) that chose not to exercise it. They found it annoying.

Then there is cases like my sorceress who switched familiars (her eagle was too aggressive at getting into trouble. But 3.5 rules meant it took a year in-game to switch to a bat. In Living Greyhawk, those time units added up to her being without a familiar from about level 4 to level 9)

[danielxcutter]

I mean, did Dorukan have a familiar?

[Yanisa]

I mean, did Dorukan have a familiar?

Even within the comic it is established one can forget about it's familiar till the point it's no longer visible to anyone. Perhaps Dorukan, and maybe even Xykon, just need a reminder about their familiar and it will pop back in existence.

[MultitudeMan]

Even within the comic it is established one can forget about it's familiar till the point it's no longer visible to anyone. Perhaps Dorukan, and maybe even Xykon, just need a reminder about their familiar and it will pop back in existence.

Well, Dorukan is both deceased and soulbound, and we're pretty sure Xykon has swapped out his familiar for metamagic specialist, to be able to cast a Still Meteor Swarm while grappled. I grant that he may have taken a familiar again as a feat, but since there's literally no evidence for that, the argument from silence may be a little weak here.

[danielxcutter]

FWIW I think Rapid Metamagic could also work?

[TooSoon]

FWIW I think Rapid Metamagic could also work?

Xykon has used Maximise spell before also.

[danielxcutter]

Uh, pretty sure Rapid Metamagic works with both Still Spell and Maximize Spell? Am I missing something?

[Gurgeh]

Yes, Rapid Metamagic would work perfectly well to explain Xykon's casting. It is literally the "ha ha, we hate sorcerers and they need to pay this feat tax to get parity with wizards in one of the several fields they're behind in".

It's also possible that he has Sudden Still and Sudden Maximise rather than the core metamagic feats, since the Sudden metamagic feats don't alter the casting time of a spell; Sudden Maximise has the side benefit of not requiring him to have 12th-level spell slots and/or the outrageously expensive Improved Metamagic.

[danielxcutter]

He used Maximized spells twice, so it can’t JUST be Sudden Maximized.

[Gurgeh]

Hm, are you sure? I've only been able to identify two instances of Xykon casting a maximised spell: one of the Energy Drains he used in the fight with Darth V, and the Fireball he threw at Durkon and Minrah. These didn't happen in the same day, so unless there's an additional maximisation happening somewhere else (and it's entirely possible, my scrutiny has not been exhaustive) there's no rules issue there.

For what it's worth, Sudden Maximise is currently listed in his statblock in this thread as an alternative possibility to Maximise Spell - so if there is a definite case of him maximising more than once in the same day then we can probably scratch that one out (or at least say it's there in addition to Maximise Spell, rather than being a replacement for it).

[Yanisa]

Hm, are you sure? I've only been able to identify two instances of Xykon casting a maximised spell: one of the Energy Drains he used in the fight with Darth V, and the Fireball he threw at Durkon and Minrah. These didn't happen in the same day, so unless there's an additional maximisation happening somewhere else (and it's entirely possible, my scrutiny has not been exhaustive) there's no rules issue there.

For what it's worth, Sudden Maximise is currently listed in his statblock in this thread as an alternative possibility to Maximise Spell - so if there is a definite case of him maximising more than once in the same day then we can probably scratch that one out (or at least say it's there in addition to Maximise Spell, rather than being a replacement for it).

They are 4 comics apart.

Maximized Energy Drain (Last panel)
Maximized Lightning Bolt (8th Panel)

There is also a Maximized Magic Missile (Second to last panel) in another battle.

Also, it's possible Xykon has a Greater Maximize Metamagic Rod, those have 3 uses per day. (Although people really dislike the "invisible magic item boost".)
Also, it's possible Xykon has both sudden Maximize and the normal Maximize feat, because you need a metamagic feat as requirement for the sudden feats.

In the end there a lot of ways to explain Xykon's abilities. People have, and will again, talk(ed) for this for dozens of pages on end.

[danielxcutter]

Honestly I just don’t think there’s any proof for the invisible metamagic rod nor Sudden Maximize.

[Yanisa]

Honestly I just don’t think there’s any proof for the invisible metamagic rod nor Sudden Maximize.

It's because Energy Drain is a level 9th spell. Increasing it with maximize makes it a level 12th spell. Which required Xykon to be level 27* or higher. Especially in the old days people found that way to high for Xykon.

*Epic 3.5 isn't my strong shoot, but I believe it's based on feats to gain 12th level slots. It requires 3 +1 max level feats. Epic character gain a lot at 21, 24 en 27, thus Xykon being 27.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Even thinking about it, level 27 is at least 10 levels above the Order highest level. It still seems a huge gap to overcome. I get why people are searching for lower level options.

[TooSoon]

It's because Energy Drain is a level 9th spell. Increasing it with maximize makes it a level 12th spell. Which required Xykon to be level 27* or higher. Especially in the old days people found that way to high for Xykon.

*Epic 3.5 isn't my strong shoot, but I believe it's based on feats to gain 12th level slots. It requires 3 +1 max level feats. Epic character gain a lot at 21, 24 en 27, thus Xykon being 27.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Edit: Even thinking about it, level 27 is at least 10 levels above the Order highest level. It still seems a huge gap to overcome. I get why people are searching for lower level options.

Whereas I don't get that reasoning at all, because the author already opened the comic with Xykon getting beaten by a level 8 fighter. Xykon being level 27 isn't any more preposterous than what the comic opened with. The order was outclassed then, and are less outclassed now if anything.

That is also bad reasoning; we should be basing levels on the consistent application of principles unless those principles don't work under the rules, not outcome based reasoning so you get the result you like.

[danielxcutter]

Epic Sorcerer actually gets bonus feats at level [20+3x], where x is a natural number.

[Yanisa]

Whereas I don't get that reasoning at all, because the author already opened the comic with Xykon getting beaten by a level 8 fighter. Xykon being level 27 isn't any more preposterous than what the comic opened with. The order was outclassed then, and are less outclassed now if anything.

That is also bad reasoning; we should be basing levels on the consistent application of principles unless those principles don't work under the rules, not outcome based reasoning so you get the result you like.

But what is the consistent application in the case of Xykon? We basically have two by the rules ways to explain an ability portrayed in the comic where the only difference is the minimum level required. But we have no other strong data to map Xykon's level. When anyone claims one version is better then the other, it will be partly based on how powerful they see Xykon. I don't think we can be consistent because we don't have enough data.

Epic Sorcerer actually gets bonus feats at level [20+3x], where x is a natural number.

Indeed, a sorcerer (most classes actually) gain both feats and bonus feats.

At 21st level, and every three levels thereafter, the character may select an epic feat in place of a nonepic feat.

The epic sorcerer gains a bonus feat (selected from the list of epic sorcerer bonus feats) every three levels after 20th

Which means 3 feats only requires level 24. (21 level feat, 23 bonus feat, 24 level feat).

I can settle for level 24.

[danielxcutter]

He needs a feat for Epic Spellcasting too.

Also, spellcasters actually don't really get much past level 20. What real difference exists besides slightly higher numbers - and in fact, said numbers go up even less for casters - is mostly increased resources and Epic feats, a surprising number of which can be approximated or even surpassed by non-epic abilities and items.

In Xykon's case, the only real thing it changes for the Order is if he has two epic slots or three.

[Gurgeh]

They are 4 comics apart.
Maximized Energy Drain (Last panel)
Maximized Lightning Bolt (8th Panel)

Ah, thank you! I made the same mistake as Xykon and assumed there was nothing to check for once the spellcaster was down :P

And yes, if we assume Xykon is using the core Maximise Spell then he's got to be a minimum level of 26, since between Epic Spellcasting and Improved Spell Capacity that would require him to have four epic feats - two from normal feat progression at levels 21 and 24, and two from the Epic Sorcerer's bonus feat progression at levels 23 and 26.

[TooSoon]

But what is the consistent application in the case of Xykon? We basically have two by the rules ways to explain an ability portrayed in the comic where the only difference is the minimum level required. But we have no other strong data to map Xykon's level. When anyone claims one version is better then the other, it will be partly based on how powerful they see Xykon. I don't think we can be consistent because we don't have enough data.


Indeed, a sorcerer (most classes actually) gain both feats and bonus feats.



Which means 3 feats only requires level 24. (21 level feat, 23 bonus feat, 24 level feat).

I can settle for level 24.

Occam's Razor would suggest that the approach is to take the lowest number based off the most reasonable explanation. Every stat block could be gutted by saying "well, there is this obscure explanation that would negate this". That is not a feasible burden of proof to produce the stat blocks on here. Giving Xykon obscure/unseen feats/items they have not shown any evidence they have should not be valid unless what Xykon is doing is impossible under the rules without it.

[Yanisa]

Occam's Razor would suggest that the approach is to take the lowest number based off the most reasonable explanation. Every stat block could be gutted by saying "well, there is this obscure explanation that would negate this". That is not a feasible burden of proof to produce the stat blocks on here. Giving Xykon obscure/unseen feats/items they have not shown any evidence they have should not be valid unless what Xykon is doing is impossible under the rules without it.

In general I get you, but I was talking about the more specific situation. Either Xykon took Improved Spell Capacity three times and has a minimum level of 26, or Xykon took the feat Sudden Maximize and has a minimum level of 21. It's hard to objectively say which option is more obscure.

The "third option", invisible metamagic rods, falls more within your lines of obscure explanations, but that's not the one I use to explain a minimum of level 21.

[Kurald Galain]

Since this has been discussed before, let me refer to the Frequently Asked Questions for two relevant points:

The three "Core" books in 3E D&D are the Player's Handbook 1 (PHB), Dungeon Master's Guide 1 (DMG), and Monster Manual 1 (MM).

Epic Level Handbook is not Core.

Note that comics 429, 442, and 1041 have implications for Xykon's level

When applying Occam's Razor, you may want to include how many assumptions are needed for these three comics.

Of course more discussion on the topic is welcome in this thread.

[Dion]

Epic Sorcerer actually gets bonus feats at level [20+3x], where x is a natural number.

Since no two mathematicians can agree if 0 is a natural number, this is a perfect definition for this board.

[RMS Oceanic]

Since this has been discussed before, let me refer to the Frequently Asked Questions for two relevant points:


Epic Level Handbook is not Core.


When applying Occam's Razor, you may want to include how many assumptions are needed for these three comics.

Of course more discussion on the topic is welcome in this thread.

Epic Level Handbook is not Core, but the Epic Rules are in the SRD.

[Yanisa]

Epic Level Handbook is not Core, but the Epic Rules are in the SRD.

Yeah, SRD and core are two very different things, with some overlap. Parts of Player's Handbook aren't in the SRD, not to mention the other two core books.

[TooSoon]

In general I get you, but I was talking about the more specific situation. Either Xykon took Improved Spell Capacity three times and has a minimum level of 26, or Xykon took the feat Sudden Maximize and has a minimum level of 21. It's hard to objectively say which option is more obscure.

The "third option", invisible metamagic rods, falls more within your lines of obscure explanations, but that's not the one I use to explain a minimum of level 21.

Did we see an invisible rod? Did the word "Sudden" or "Rapid" appear in front of the spells? No? Then the prima facie assumption is none of those were used, meaning occam's razor is he has Improved Spell Capacity 3 times.

I also don't even get the concern about him being level 27+ at this point. The order are mostly around the 16-17 level mark around about now probably (not proven yet, but probable). It's much more plausible for them to take out Xykon at level 27 than it was for them to take him out when they were level 8 and he was "at least" level 21+.

[hamishspence]

Rapid Metamagic is not a metamagic feat itself - it's a feat that makes metamagic faster. The basic metamagic feats are still being used. Same with the Metamagic Specialist class feature.

Xykon would not need to be saying "Rapid Maximised Magic Missile" or "Rapid Still Meteor Swarm".

Same principle applies to Metamagic Specialist.

[Emanick]

Did we see an invisible rod? Did the word "Sudden" or "Rapid" appear in front of the spells? No? Then the prima facie assumption is none of those were used, meaning occam's razor is he has Improved Spell Capacity 3 times.

I also don't even get the concern about him being level 27+ at this point. The order are mostly around the 16-17 level mark around about now probably (not proven yet, but probable). It's much more plausible for them to take out Xykon at level 27 than it was for them to take him out when they were level 8 and he was "at least" level 21+.

I've always thought it was most probable that Xykon was in the low 20s based off of his estimate to Roy that "I'm what, seven levels higher than you? Eight? More?" That kind of guesstimate could be wrong, but it sounds to me like Xykon has some basic idea of Roy's level. If we assume that this has something to do with Roy's number of attacks per round, then it makes sense to think that Xykon thinks of somebody between level 11 and 15 as being "at least" 7-8 levels below him. From that panel alone, I'd guess that Xykon was level 22, maybe 23.

The Darth V fight makes him appear more powerful, sure. But it doesn't eliminate the other, earlier evidence, either. Given Xykon's conversation with Roy, I'm inclined to seek an explanation that is as compatible with a level 22-23 sorcerer as possible.

[DaOldeWolf]

Did we see an invisible rod? Did the word "Sudden" or "Rapid" appear in front of the spells? No? Then the prima facie assumption is none of those were used, meaning occam's razor is he has Improved Spell Capacity 3 times.

I also don't even get the concern about him being level 27+ at this point. The order are mostly around the 16-17 level mark around about now probably (not proven yet, but probable). It's much more plausible for them to take out Xykon at level 27 than it was for them to take him out when they were level 8 and he was "at least" level 21+.

Technically speaking, he should be level 28+ since Xykon has gained at least one level according to himself while exploring the last gate's dungeon.