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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    "Thor, can we talk?" would fit the RAW of the spell. Although it does beg the question of how exactly Thor can summon Durkon's astral projection or whatever it is to his location for the actual conversation. I'm willing to leave that as "he's a god, and OOTS gods obviously have powers beyond exactly what DnD deities can do via RAW."
    It could just be a case of "Remote Communication" and "Remote Sensing" combined


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...#remoteSensing

    Remote Sensing
    As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...eCommunication

    Remote Communication
    As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.



    with Durkon appearing, being visual shorthand - he doesn't actually astral project to the location.

    And "Thor, can we talk?" being a good way to get Thor to extend Remote Sensing to the location in question.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2021-04-12 at 12:04 PM.
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  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
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    It could just be a case of "Remote Communication" and "Remote Sensing" combined


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...#remoteSensing

    Remote Sensing
    As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can perceive everything within a radius of one mile per rank around any of its worshipers, holy sites, or other objects or locales sacred to the deity. This supernatural effect can also be centered on any place where someone speaks the deity’s name or title for up to 1 hour after the name is spoken, and at any location when an event related to the deity’s portfolio occurs.The remote sensing power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier except a divine shield (described in Salient Divine Abilities) or an area otherwise blocked by a deity of equal or higher rank. Remote sensing is not fooled by misdirection or nondetection or similar spells, and it does not create a magical sensor that other creatures can detect. A deity can extend its senses to two or more remote locations at once (depending on divine rank) and still sense what’s going on nearby.


    https://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/di...eCommunication

    Remote Communication
    As a standard action, a deity of rank 1 or higher can send a communication to a remote location. The deity can speak to any of its own worshipers, and to anyone within one mile per rank away from a site dedicated to the deity, or within one mile per rank away from a statue or other likeness of the deity. The creature being contacted can receive a telepathic message that only it can hear. Alternatively, the deity’s voice can seem to issue from the air, the ground, or from some object of the deity’s choosing (but not an object or locale dedicated to another deity of equal or higher rank than the deity who is speaking). In the latter case, anyone within earshot of the sound can hear it. The deity can send a manifestation or omen instead of a spoken or telepathic message. The exact nature of this communication varies with the deity, but it usually is some visible phenomenon. A deity’s communication power can cross planes and penetrate any barrier. Once communication is initiated, the deity can continue communicating as a free action until it decides to end the communication. A deity can carry on as many remote communications at one time as it can remote sense at one time.



    with Durkon appearing, being visual shorthand - he doesn't actually astral project to the location.

    And "Thor, can we talk?" being a good way to get Thor to extend Remote Sensing to the location in question.
    Much the same way that Sending uses an image to make clear who is talking, but they don't astrally project (or even get heard by others nearby, if I understand correctly).
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    Much the same way that Sending uses an image to make clear who is talking, but they don't astrally project (or even get heard by others nearby, if I understand correctly).
    Yah, that works I think. So all the commune has to do is say hello, and we can assume that Thor is able to perceive who is calling and answer using his innate divine abilities, meaning we don't really need a custom version of commune without further evidence.

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by arimareiji View Post
    The benefits of spells that affect others' actions tend to be written from the caster's point of view, as a "This is all you're guaranteed to get through your own force of will." For example, Suggestion only guarantees the target will do XYZ -- but if it so happens that the target agrees with the caster's goal, they may go far above and beyond. I'd think Commune works similarly, especially considering you're not guaranteed to reach the god directly in the first place.

    Or, think of it like paparazzi scoring an 10-minute interview with a celebrity. All they've been (relatively) guaranteed by the arrangement is polite conversation and a few superficial answers. But the celebrity might choose to start talking about their deepest, darkest secrets if it fits their purposes.
    I'd argue that, as written, Commune imposes limitations on the answerer as well. Even when a simple "yes" or "no" answer would be contrary to the deity's interest, they're allowed to instead give their response as a "short phrase (five words or less)", which still leaves a lot of room for misinterpretation even if it runs contrary to the deity's wishes.

    With that said, Thor has bent the rules before. Since Kraagor's Tomb is within the Northen Pantheon's area of influence, he can probably bend the rules without having to worry about the other pantheons getting fussy over it.

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Also this is like a major situation so he might be pulling some favors for that.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Durkon's spells cast thus far:
    Level 2: Silence
    Level 3: Meld into Stone
    Level 5: Commune, Wall of Stone
    Level 6: Heal, Wind Walk
    Level 7: Mass Death Ward

    Also: Unspecified cure spell. And probably an off screen level 4 death ward.

    So nothing to show that Durkon isn't above level 13 yet. But we're getting there.

    What are Durkon's domains again? Good and the custom Thor domain?
    Last edited by EmperorSarda; 2021-04-13 at 06:40 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by EmperorSarda View Post
    Durkon's spells cast thus far:
    Level 2: Silence
    Level 3: Meld into Stone
    Level 5: Commune, Wall of Stone
    Level 6: Heal, Wind Walk
    Level 7: Mass Death Ward

    Also: Unspecified cure spell. And probably an off screen level 4 death ward.

    So nothing to show that Durkon isn't above level 13 yet. But we're getting there.

    What are Durkon's domains again? Good and the custom Thor domain?
    He uses Call Lightning in DCF and 837 panel 7 indicates that he has Control Winds so the Weather Domain seems likely - as neither is on the standard cleric spell list and both or on the Weather Domain (and for what is is worth from Deities and Demigods Thor does have the Weather Domain).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    There's got to be some level of custom-tooling for Durkon's domains. Thor's Lightning is either an entirely novel spell or a rebranded Lightning Bolt; either way, it's not on the standard cleric list or in any existing domain. Likewise, Cat's Grace is not normally a Cleric spell (and isn't in any SRD domains).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    There's got to be some level of custom-tooling for Durkon's domains. Thor's Lightning is either an entirely novel spell or a rebranded Lightning Bolt; either way, it's not on the standard cleric list or in any existing domain. Likewise, Cat's Grace is not normally a Cleric spell (and isn't in any SRD domains).
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  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Is it possible that Durkon in fact can't cast Cat's Grace, which is part of why he said “What?” in #27 fifth panel, but then decided to go along with Roy and pretend that he can cast it, since in the situation it didn't actually matter what spell he would cast.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Gurgeh View Post
    There's got to be some level of custom-tooling for Durkon's domains. Thor's Lightning is either an entirely novel spell or a rebranded Lightning Bolt; either way, it's not on the standard cleric list or in any existing domain. Likewise, Cat's Grace is not normally a Cleric spell (and isn't in any SRD domains).
    Thor's Lightning seems indeed to be a rebranded Lightning Bolt, the same way Thor's Might seems to be a re-branded Righteous Might (especially since Durkula could cast Hel's Might, which appears to work the same).

    Could Cat's Grace be an holdover from 3.0? I know it wasn't 100% by-the-rules, but I remember the first Neverwinter Nights had Cat's Grace available to Clerics through a domain (Animal, I think), and it was based on the D&D 3.0 rules.



    EDIT: Unrelated, but why isn't Tarquin listed as having the Snatch Arrows feat? He uses it at least two times, complete with "snatch" sound effect.
    Last edited by Silly Name; 2021-04-14 at 06:16 AM.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Because he used it way too much for it to be the standard feat, whether it’s a houserule, custom item, or if he’s actually Epic.

    (I find the last the least likely tbh; the Legion isn’t quite strong enough to be Epic IMO. I put them roughly on Redcloak’s level; around ECL/CR 16~17 or so.)
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    EDIT: Unrelated, but why isn't Tarquin listed as having the Snatch Arrows feat? He uses it at least two times, complete with "snatch" sound effect.
    Back in the mists of time, a small green creature said "Begun, the Tarquin Arrow Wars have".
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    Back in the mists of time, a small green creature said "Begun, the Tarquin Arrow Wars have".
    If there’s a reference it rolled a nat 1 at hitting me in the head, so yeah.

    Edit: Oh my god I’m an idiot it’s a Star Wars reference.
    Last edited by danielxcutter; 2021-04-14 at 07:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Because he used it way too much for it to be the standard feat, whether it’s a houserule, custom item, or if he’s actually Epic.

    (I find the last the least likely tbh; the Legion isn’t quite strong enough to be Epic IMO. I put them roughly on Redcloak’s level; around ECL/CR 16~17 or so.)
    Ah, right. I always forget that it's supposed to be once per round.

    (Agreed on the Vector Legion being non-Epic, it would be pretty weird judging from relative power levels)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    If there’s a reference it rolled a nat 1 at hitting me in the head, so yeah.

    Edit: Oh my god I’m an idiot it’s a Star Wars reference.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    Could Cat's Grace be an holdover from 3.0? I know it wasn't 100% by-the-rules, but I remember the first Neverwinter Nights had Cat's Grace available to Clerics through a domain (Animal, I think), and it was based on the D&D 3.0 rules.
    I love questions as these, gives me a chance to dust of the old 3.0 handbook. But no, 3.0 doesn't give Cat Grace to clerics. I think the confusion stems from the fact most classes only get some of the "Animal buff" spells while others get all of them.

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  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Yah, that works I think. So all the commune has to do is say hello, and we can assume that Thor is able to perceive who is calling and answer using his innate divine abilities, meaning we don't really need a custom version of commune without further evidence.
    "Durkon, your spell is running out. Did I give you more than one Commune today?"

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Reboot View Post
    "Durkon, your spell is running out. Did I give you more than one Commune today?"
    So, it seems that "OotS Commune" still has a duration, like the base one - which is one round per caster level: assuming this is the same, and assuming Durkon is level 13 as per this thread, that's 13 rounds, or 1 minute and 28 seconds. Durkon probably ran out of time, but the base Commune spell also has a "cap" of one question per caster level.

    Hard to judge if this was being counted (similar to Sending's 25 word limit), because he's clearly not restricted to yes/no questions, and he "asks" stuff in the latest comic in a rather open-ended way.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    So, it seems that "OotS Commune" still has a duration, like the base one - which is one round per caster level: assuming this is the same, and assuming Durkon is level 13 as per this thread, that's 13 rounds, or 1 minute and 28 seconds. Durkon probably ran out of time, but the base Commune spell also has a "cap" of one question per caster level.

    Hard to judge if this was being counted (similar to Sending's 25 word limit), because he's clearly not restricted to yes/no questions, and he "asks" stuff in the latest comic in a rather open-ended way.
    There are 20 panels of Durkon and Thor talking. No one is going to believe Durkon is level 20...

    If you go by Back and Forth, I count 14 moments the dialogue switched. We could use that as argument for level 14.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Yanisa View Post
    There are 20 panels of Durkon and Thor talking. No one is going to believe Durkon is level 20...

    If you go by Back and Forth, I count 14 moments the dialogue switched. We could use that as argument for level 14.
    I'd be ok as assuming OotS Commune to work like base D&D 3.5 Commune, but with no restrictions on number of questions and their wording as well as the wording of the answers, so that the only actual restriction is time.

    (Durkon being level 14 isn't that hard to believe, in any case).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    I'd be ok as assuming OotS Commune to work like base D&D 3.5 Commune, but with no restrictions on number of questions and their wording as well as the wording of the answers, so that the only actual restriction is time.

    (Durkon being level 14 isn't that hard to believe, in any case).
    I think we can safely say that Commune is house-ruled in some fashion, and presumably duration rather than number of words or questions. I don't think we can say anything at all about what that means, though--we have assumed that panels are rounds when it comes to combat (although I'm not sure we have any real basis for this other than because it lets us draw conclusions, although maybe we have some word of giant to back up this idea), but given that talking in combat is a free action (and we even have some jokes about that), I don't think we can at all assume that panels of dialogue are exactly one round, therefore we can't conclude anything in particular about how long they are talking, let alone trying to therefore infer Durkon's level based on a made-up duration houserule (maybe OOtS commune has a duration of 10 rounds, for instance, or 8 rounds plus one round for every 3 caster levels, etc., etc.).

    Way too many variables to conclude anything other than "OOtS Commune has a house-ruled duration" which I guess we could note in Durkon's statblock although it's not quite the kind of information we typically track.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    we have assumed that panels are rounds when it comes to combat (although I'm not sure we have any real basis for this other than because it lets us draw conclusions, although maybe we have some word of giant to back up this ideas)
    I've always strongly disagreed with the assumption that 1 panel equals 1 round of combat, and I think there's word of Giant somewhere to back me up, but I haven't really argued the point because almost everyone else seems willing to accept it, possibly simply for the reason you suggest.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    From Yxylu over in the Number of Character Appearances thread, there were 316+463=780 total words spoken by Durkon and Thor. That's consistent with 60 words per level (or 10 words per second) if Durkon is level 13.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    First of all, I'm pretty sure what you want to say is "turns" not "rounds". Second, we've seen Roy make what I assume is a full attack against Durkula - which is one turn over several panels.

    So yeah, panels=/=turns.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    First of all, I'm pretty sure what you want to say is "turns" not "rounds". Second, we've seen Roy make what I assume is a full attack against Durkula - which is one turn over several panels.

    So yeah, panels=/=turns.
    I'm not 100% sure I agree that we mean turns. But I do think in either case that what we really mean is that a single panel during combat can be assumed to span a maximum of 1 round (and here I really do mean round). It's possible for a turn to be split over multiple panels, and in any case since we can't assume the other characters didn't act off-panel--or that Roy isn't, for some reason, taking fewer than his maximum number of attacks either for a feat or or strategic reason or just because why not--so it's not useful to use this to set maximum levels anyway, only minimum ones based on how many attacks are ever made in a single panel.

    Hence, whether or not Roy made a full attack against Durkula over several panels or we see several turns worth of actions or something else doesn't really matter, we are just assuming that any time we see a character make a number of attacks in one panel, they have some way of making that many attacks in one turn (or maybe a round if one of them is an AoO or something).

    Was the distinction between turns and rounds actually made before 5e? (I have no idea what the answer to that is, so I'm just curious).

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Was the distinction between turns and rounds actually made before 5e? (I have no idea what the answer to that is, so I'm just curious).
    It was definitely there in 3rd edition days, and in 4th edition as well. Don't know much about the exact terminology of AD&D and earlier, but I expect it was there too.


    Anyway, I take the general agreement is that we can't really learn much from this Commune about Durkon's level, since it's clearly a very heavily homebrewed version?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silly Name View Post
    It was definitely there in 3rd edition days, and in 4th edition as well. Don't know much about the exact terminology of AD&D and earlier, but I expect it was there too.


    Anyway, I take the general agreement is that we can't really learn much from this Commune about Durkon's level, since it's clearly a very heavily homebrewed version?
    Back in the day a turn was 10 rounds, but back then a round was a minute (with the explanation being that within that minute there would be a lot of filler actions -- ducking, feinting, blocking, etc).
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  29. - Top - End - #389
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    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I think in 3.5e at least a round is 6 seconds.
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  30. - Top - End - #390
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Yanisa's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Turn has a 3.5 term, which is different from the AD&D term. Turn:
    The point in the round at which you take your action(s). On your turn, you may perform one or more actions, as dictated by your current circumstances.
    You can also do a find (CTRL-F) on the actions in combat page.

    For completion sake, round:
    A 6-second unit of game time used to manage combat. Every combatant may take at least one action every round.

    Oddly, the 5.0 quote I found sums up it best:
    A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn.

    It must have been weird to go from "a Turn is 10 rounds and takes 600 seconds" to "a turn is part of a 6 second round".
    Last edited by Yanisa; 2021-04-27 at 01:58 PM.
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