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  1. - Top - End - #271
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    danielxcutter's Avatar

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Mmph. You're probably right, assuming Rich isn't bending the rules for this or thinking "well since it's not targeting O-Chul... though obviously he could.

    Not sure if this means anything yet anyways. honestly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  2. - Top - End - #272
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    I'm still in the "this was a last-panel joke" camp, but if it does turn out that she found out that info through scrying, for what it's worth I would guess that Cloister only prevents Signore Stiffliano from being targeted by a divination spell. If Serini was scrying on Hinjo at exactly the right time (which would, of course, be a weird coincidence that would need some justification), I think she'd likely see and hear what anyone nearby was hearing and saying, including our favorite blue-beard.
    Last edited by Emanick; 2021-03-10 at 02:29 PM.
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  3. - Top - End - #273
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I'm still in a "this was a last-panel joke" camp, but if it does turn out that she found out that info through scrying, for what it's worth I would guess that Cloister only prevents Signore Stiffliano from being targeted by a divination spell. If Serini was scrying on Hinjo at exactly the right time (which would, of course, be a weird coincidence that would need some justification), I think she'd likely see and hear what anyone nearby was hearing and saying, including our favorite blue-beard.
    I think that if she was using a scrying-derivative, then Cloister's effect isn't as strong as a Mind Blank for that purpose - it says that if you're using divinations to on an area(like with Arcane Eye) then the Mind Blanked target isn't included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
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  4. - Top - End - #274
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    She stocked a bunch of monsters to defend her gate. Could be she also has creatures that spy for her. They could report back to her in person and get around the restrictions of the Cloister that way.

  5. - Top - End - #275
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    A simpler explanation is that she has an item that allows her to read his mind.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    She's also an epic-level rogue. She could literally walk up there and no one will ever Spot her.
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    I still need to trim it down based on publication date, etc., but for now, it's a start.
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  7. - Top - End - #277
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Scizor View Post
    She's also an epic-level rogue. She could literally walk up there and no one will ever Spot her.
    Or if she is actually spoted she can still say that she was not there...

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  8. - Top - End - #278
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    She's an epic level rogue. She probably has Use Magic Device maxed and is using an item that allows epic level scrying. That or she has an item that allows plane shift and then she scries from the cloud like Eugene does.

  9. - Top - End - #279

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Or she has a moderate Gather Information score and thus gets information on a successful roll she really has no way to actually learn. Yes, I have issues with the design of that skill, and a few other social ones.

  10. - Top - End - #280
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Or she has a moderate Gather Information score and thus gets information on a successful roll she really has no way to actually learn. Yes, I have issues with the design of that skill, and a few other social ones.
    Can't the DM just assign and appropriately higher DC if they have no way of knowing it? An epic "gather information" skill is probably "maintains an international network of informants," which is totally genre-appropriate for spymaster types, and is actually a lot more feasible in a world with a lot of magic items and users floating around.

  11. - Top - End - #281
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Can't the DM just assign and appropriately higher DC if they have no way of knowing it? An epic "gather information" skill is probably "maintains an international network of informants," which is totally genre-appropriate for spymaster types, and is actually a lot more feasible in a world with a lot of magic items and users floating around.
    That's kind of the point; Gather Information is very loosely worded and relies a lot on individual DM interpretation. (For example, you're positing a higher DC for what I would say is an automatic failure.)

    One of the sample affiliation benefits in PHBII is access to a communication network that lets you make Gather Information checks across an entire region "without requiring you to move from your hometown", but the base skill description barely even implies that you need to be near where you're gathering information in the normal case.
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  12. - Top - End - #282
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Or she has a moderate Gather Information score and thus gets information on a successful roll she really has no way to actually learn.
    If a player rolls a nat 20 on their Jump skill, they're not going to land on the moon despite that being their intention. If there is no way to actually learn information, no Gather Information roll will give it to them.
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  13. - Top - End - #283

    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    The Jump skill is limited by their STR score. Even a Nat 20 won't affect that. Social skills are poorly worded in general (see all the Diplomacy exploits).

  14. - Top - End - #284
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    The Jump skill is limited by their STR score. Even a Nat 20 won't affect that. Social skills are poorly worded in general (see all the Diplomacy exploits).
    And the Gather Information skill is limited by their CHA score. Even a Nat 20 won't affect that. I fail to see the difference. If someone rolls high enough on Gather Information when there is no way for them to actually gather the information, then no, that will fail, just like if someone rolls high enough on their Jump skill when there is no way for them to actually jump to the moon. It sounds like your complaint is with DMs who made poor decisions instead the way the game system was designed.
    Last edited by Peelee; 2021-03-13 at 06:32 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #285
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    If she has a high enough sense motive score she would be able to read surface thoughts - which is all she would need to know what he was thinking about in panels 11 and 12.

  16. - Top - End - #286
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogar Demonblud View Post
    Social skills are poorly worded in general (see all the Diplomacy exploits).
    What I find somewhat interesting is that D20 Modern's Gather Information is functionally the same, but the description offers some guidance on DCs and when a check should be allowed; while 3.5 (which would come out several months later) looks like the same description that was in the 3.0 rules.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quartz View Post
    A simpler explanation is that she has an item that allows her to read his mind.
    I mean, if we're going for "simplest"... she has an ostensible amnesia potion right there. Like someone else said, this doesn't have to be her first interrogation of the paladins, even if they don't realise that.

  18. - Top - End - #288
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by dancrilis View Post
    If she has a high enough sense motive score she would be able to read surface thoughts - which is all she would need to know what he was thinking about in panels 11 and 12.
    That still leaves panel 10, which is still a bit specific in its information...

    And that'd require she have a +80 modifier (at least) to the skill. Even with a +33 competence ring (if such a thing even existed in the world, which would require an enchanter at level 30 with 33 ranks in the skill), she'd have at most a +56. We don't see rings, and when we saw the Philter of Glibness, there was a color effect to Haley's voice.

    Now that I say that though, there's a color-effect to Serini's voice, so there could be a potion effect in play.

    She'd still need to close the gap with a +24 at least, and realistically a +34. So it's doable, but it'd put her level and wealth at an ungodly tier, since she'd need to afford these bonuses AFTER accounting for the dungeon creation.

  19. - Top - End - #289
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Long time lurker, first time posting

    I always had the impression that Belkar's Favored Enemy choice was Kobolds based on the way he behaves when the order meets various kobolds during the story:

    • When they first meet the Linear Guild (strip 44), Belkar's first reaction is "Ugh, I hate kobolds...". Even if one could argue that Belkar (at least back then) hates every living creature, we have never seen this kind of instant hatred for a member of any other race.
    • Having Kobold as a favored enemy naturally would fit the LG's theme of opposites, further reinforced by the fact that, in every ambush, there is a kobold member of the guild.
    • Belkar also shows this seemingly unjustified hatred when they meet the Oracle (strip 329).


    When they first meet the Linear Guild, the characters had barely any character development so it could have been easy for Rich to have added in that Belkar has Kobolds as favored enemies without having to think of an elaborate backstory. As far as I know, I don't think this is officially mentioned anywhere, but to me it makes complete sense given his reaction in the strips mentioned.

  20. - Top - End - #290
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    It’s possible he might have a FE choice as Kobold. Remember, at that level he had at least three choices.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  21. - Top - End - #291
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by gustmes View Post
    Long time lurker, first time posting

    I always had the impression that Belkar's Favored Enemy choice was Kobolds based on the way he behaves when the order meets various kobolds during the story:

    • When they first meet the Linear Guild (strip 44), Belkar's first reaction is "Ugh, I hate kobolds...". Even if one could argue that Belkar (at least back then) hates every living creature, we have never seen this kind of instant hatred for a member of any other race.
    • Having Kobold as a favored enemy naturally would fit the LG's theme of opposites, further reinforced by the fact that, in every ambush, there is a kobold member of the guild.
    • Belkar also shows this seemingly unjustified hatred when they meet the Oracle (strip 329).


    When they first meet the Linear Guild, the characters had barely any character development so it could have been easy for Rich to have added in that Belkar has Kobolds as favored enemies without having to think of an elaborate backstory. As far as I know, I don't think this is officially mentioned anywhere, but to me it makes complete sense given his reaction in the strips mentioned.
    Yes, I think Kobold makes much more sense than Undead.

    By WoG, Belkar was Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 at the time of the Miko fight at the end of this strip, so he'd already taken his third favoured enemy (or improvement to existing FE), and it's not possible for him to have taken his 15th level of Ranger before leaving Azure City, so the comment in panel 9 about having "gotten pretty good at" killing undead can't be referring to taking them as FE by RAW.
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  22. - Top - End - #292
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    By WoG, Belkar was Ranger 11 / Barbarian 1 at the time of the Miko fight at the end of this strip, so he'd already taken his third favoured enemy (or improvement to existing FE), and it's not possible for him to have taken his 15th level of Ranger before leaving Azure City, so the comment in panel 9 about having "gotten pretty good at" killing undead can't be referring to taking them as FE by RAW.
    It can't refer to Belkar taking FE: Undead, but it could refer to him choosing to increase the bonus from FE: Undead when he gained another favored enemy.
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  23. - Top - End - #293
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Serini has A Hand Crossbow and a Wand. And presumably EWP: Hand Crossbow and ranks in Use Magic Device.

    I'm guessing the wand is some kind of teleportation spell given the "pop", but no concrete info.
    Last edited by RMS Oceanic; 2021-03-17 at 07:18 AM.
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  24. - Top - End - #294
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by RMS Oceanic View Post
    Serini has A Hand Crossbow and a Wand. And presumably EWP: Hand Crossbow and ranks in Use Magic Device.

    I'm guessing the wand is some kind of teleportation spell given the "pop", but no concrete info.
    Rogues are automatically proficient with hand crossbows, and the wand's probably Dimension Door.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  25. - Top - End - #295
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    Rogues are automatically proficient with hand crossbows, and the wand's probably Dimension Door.
    Oops, forgot that.
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  26. - Top - End - #296
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    the wand's probably Dimension Door.
    Since you can't put spells of higher than 4th level into wands, I think that's a safe assumption.
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  27. - Top - End - #297
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Since you can't put spells of higher than 4th level into wands, I think that's a safe assumption.
    At the least I can't think of any spells that would be better in terms of range and such while still being low enough to put in a wand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Squire Doodad View Post
    I could write a lengthy explanation, but honestly just what danielxcutter said.
    Extended sig here.

  28. - Top - End - #298
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    It can't refer to Belkar taking FE: Undead, but it could refer to him choosing to increase the bonus from FE: Undead when he gained another favored enemy.
    My point was that he only gets a new FE (or FE improvement) at Ranger levels 1, 5, 10, 15, and 20.

    He already had Ranger 10 before he got to Azure City (and got the Mark of Justice that affected his target selection parameters), and we don't even know that he has Ranger 15 now, let alone while he was still in Azure City, so there was no time during his enforced time of "killing-only-undead" when he could have taken Undead as FE, or increased an existing bonus.

    The deafness during the Pyramid fight strongly suggests that Belkar was only level 15 total at the time, further disproving an FE element to his undead killing prowess.

    This argument falls apart if Rich allows retraining, but most of the data on our character sheets on this thread do as well if that's the case :( .
    Quote Originally Posted by Maat Mons View Post
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  29. - Top - End - #299
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by MultitudeMan View Post
    He already had Ranger 10 before he got to Azure City (and got the Mark of Justice that affected his target selection parameters), and we don't even know that he has Ranger 15 now, let alone while he was still in Azure City, so there was no time during his enforced time of "killing-only-undead" when he could have taken Undead as FE, or increased an existing bonus.

    The deafness during the Pyramid fight strongly suggests that Belkar was only level 15 total at the time, further disproving an FE element to his undead killing prowess.
    Right, despite the fact that you mentioned it in the post I was replying to, I somehow had forgotten that he took a level of barbarian. I hereby formally withdraw my objection to your observation.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XVIII - Everyone's an Expert

    Quote Originally Posted by InvisibleBison View Post
    Since you can't put spells of higher than 4th level into wands, I think that's a safe assumption.
    Is that correct? Is there not, for example, a wand that can create layers of a Prismatic Wall? ISTR that to create such a wand you need both the Craft Wand and Craft Wondrous Item feats.

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